http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 Principles of visibility
and human friendliness.
One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
why is it worth publishing?
-Ben
On 6/30/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Several editors on Wikipedia are calling for the
On 7/2/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Benjamin West wrote:
http://tantek.com/log/2005/06.html#d03t2359 Principles of visibility
and human friendliness.
One question invisible metadata raises is if it's not worth seeing,
why is it worth publishing?
Because tools/extensions
On 6/28/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tantek Çelik
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
For some of these I see quite a bit of utility (e.g. gender is often
used in social network searches - an actual application in common use),
whereas others seem to be merely
On 3/15/07, Rob Crowther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 14/03/07, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is currently no microformat for that specifically, but it looks
like what you're logging is an event, so you can probably publish it
with hCalendar:
I was thinking it was more like
This is all relevant to existing specific-purpose date-time
properties,
[snip]
What exactly would we want
to do with a generic date apart from any specific context?
Well, blog posts and articles online come to mind. They're normally
dated, yet there's no convention that states that this is
Question: would the community be ok with a draft approximate property list
for hCalendar sooner than a comprehensive precise property list later?
My standards/implementation instincts had biased me towards the latter, but
I realize that in many ways, ironically, that's actually contrary to much
Hi Thom,
On 2/22/07, Thom Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm trying to come up with a way to join the huge network of user groups
out there and make it easier to find user groups in your area.
Sorry, I'm a little confused: what network of user groups? What's a user group?
The
obvious
http://planetmicroformats.com/
At the moment it is just an aggregation of several other sites based
on microformats. Any and all feedback is welcome. It is pretty crude
at the moment, but in the style of microformats it is better to get
something out and itterate on it rather than try to
I disagree. You should be practicing accessible, progressive
enhancement.
Agreed, so I don't think we're in disagreement. This was the reason
for my comment.
The first example does have a URI, it's the relative
path to Waldorf-Astoria-Photo.html and should be set up to work from
a spider,
Roger,
Neat stuff. I thought it was pretty good, but take some issue with the
following:
a href=javascript:ahah('Waldorf-Astoria-Photo.html','Photo');photo/a
The best practice is to wire the event up, and to use a button when
the element is not truly a link.
Something more like:
button
On 2/7/07, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Jan 31, 2007, at 7:07 PM, Derrick Lyndon Pallas wrote:
If I have a parser that only knows (and only cares about) the rel-
tag format, it will be confused by people that use rel-tag for the
category property in hCard. It seems unreasonable that
Would it be worthwhile to draw attention to this list on the blog for
those that only follow that, or get just the digests?
F
--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
Frances,
Good idea.
MF blog: http://microformats.org/blog/2007/02/08/new-mailing-list/
my blog:
On 2/7/07, Michael McCracken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So, is the microformats-new mailing list now the appropriate place for
discussing hCite development?
Thanks,
-mike
Good question. My personal opinion is that we should kind of
grandfather older stuff, while encouraging newcomers with new
The specific class names are root class names. Non-root class names
(e.g. title) only make microformats sense if they're under the DOM
tree of a root class name. The root class names have been chosen not
to conflict with known existing uses [1][2].
Regards, etc...
David
[1]
* http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F
* http://microformats.org/wiki/issues#Governance_Issues
I would also like to revive the idea of a meta-discuss list to
handle governance and other non-technical issues. This appears to be
off-topic for the current wiki page on
On 2/2/07, Martin Owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 02/02/07, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't believe anyone has said they are only willing to participate
in the -admin list secretly. But a few haven't said anything at all,
I assume because they're busy people. I expect
Moderation is a form of punishment, whether it is seen that way by the
cabal or not. It ostracizes the moderated and prevents them from
participating in the community like everyone else. In this case, it has
made Andy a second-class uF citizen whose posts are censored in an
ill-defined, unchecked
I accidently sent this to just Andy, when I meant to send it to the
list. Oops. Anyway, I think the input others have had on this thread
is very good, and I look forward to seeing the results.
-- Forwarded message --
From: Benjamin West [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Jan 31, 2007 9:28
Hehehe. Sorry. I was merely suggesting that method because it is
accurate and public, if a bit tedious. We're working to correct that
at http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Q:_Who_controls_microformats.3F.
Thanks,
Ben
(BTW, there are coffee recipes intended to be consumed via non-oral means.)
Hey Derrick,
I think you are on the right track with regard to process here. I
especially liked the in-depth treatment of the problem statement, with
specific examples that came in addition to (instead of soley) your
own frustrations. It also seems like you've looked over how to gather
I'm trying to catch up, but I'm finding it a bit difficult. The
problem with rel=me is that it's merely an alternative version, and
not authoritative or canonical, right? Why is rel=me self desirable
though? Were there any other alternatives considered?
Thanks,
Ben West
On 1/31/07, David
There is quite a lot of interest in this topic. With all the voices,
it's becoming quite difficult to keep track of what we're talking
about, and who thinks what.
I've added this issue to the hcard-issues page.
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues#Canonical.2FAuthoritative_Hcard
I would
I stumbled upon Danny Ayer's hDoap, which maps DOAP into xhtml.
http://dannyayers.com:88/xmlns/hdoap/profile/hdoap-index.html This
clearly doesn't capture the dependencies which is a big part of your
use case. I'm interested to see how more real world examples pan out.
-Ben
On 1/30/07, Charles Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm very interested in the Species microformat, but the process seems
to have stalled and I just wanted to poll opinion here as to why that
might be. Is it due to a lack of demand?
Charles, I don't know about demand, but I do know that many
http://wikia.com/wiki/Collaboration_of_the_month/Genealogy/Blurb
These folks just popped up on my radar, and I think there is a great
opportunity here. I don't know too much about their requirements, but
this is a quote from the web page:
-
Of particular importance is developing a
Dmitry,
Sorry about that. My work on the creators was 'approved' by Ryan
King. I'm pretty sure he'll put it up there, but he's often busy.
Ben
On 1/7/07, Dmitry Baranovskiy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am going to ask one more time:
Who should approve it to push it on Code section of
I don't see any reason for splitting this. What is the problem and
why does it need to be split? How would splitting solve that problem?
It looks great to me as-is.
Ben
On 1/3/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The FAQ http://microformats.org/wiki/faq is getting long. I propose
I don't recommend splitting it. I'm not sure what too long means.
My guess is that if you do make such a change, it'll be reverted.
Ben
On 1/3/07, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Frances
Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
I read your email. I don't see
A small group of like-minded individuals with a common background
who know each other personally is easy to organize. This was that,
but it ain't no more.
I'm not sure how much this applies... the group of administrators is a
world wide group of volunteers. Although this hasn't always been
On 12/21/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not sure who originally wrote:
I did.
Others skip the collecting examples (data) step and simply dream up patterns
based on their intuition (or expertise) - perhaps that is what you mean by
allowing myself to look for patterns.
It was
Ah, thanks for the context Ben. The quote makes more sense in that context,
but I still feel makes a statement that I wouldn't make.
Oops! I didn't mean to do anything like that!
It's an interesting hypothesis, but I believe what I was pointing out from
the IRC conversation is that you may
On 12/17/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/16/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It might be best of parsers accepted either; since some schemes use
comma (e.g. ICBM), others semicolon (e.g. geotag)
At the moment the ';' semicolon should be used. There is an FAQ about
it
Mike,
I was particularly interested in a part of your reply:
On 12/16/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
17.) Inspired by needs of Bloggers and blog-related services
Use cases involving bloggers are easy to come up with,
however I started working on microformats before I had a
Mike,
Nice reply.
I've also noticed that many of the more successful
technologies I can think of first implemented use cases with
user-centric data: people, places, things, times, and events.
I don't know that to be true, but it certainly makes sense.
I don't know if it's true either.
On 12/16/06, Angus McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The FAQ makes it clear that the concern is that invisible markup is
associated with spam; because spammers like to hide stuff in their
pages that causes a search engine to see them differently from human
viewers, any proposed microformat that
I think you guys are on the right track. I'd like to encourage you to
do some market research. Start collecting examples and see what you
can distill. Here are some questions I've got:
* Are lots of people publishing questions and answers?
- My bias is yes!
* How are they doing it?
- My
On 12/15/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
FAQs
There are, of course, complications
Let's try to stay focused: can you point us at any URLs using the
idiom you outlined?
One solution might be:
I suggest we avoid
because I could find no mention of microformats being recognised by
Opera.
That might be neat. What does it mean?
Ben
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
Aren't claims that you are respected by ___ kind of arrogant? Is a
reverse useful? It's one thing for someone to claim they respect
another, and another thing entirely to claim to be respected.
On 12/13/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rob O'Rourke
Mike, interesting list.
1.) Includes visible-only
Yeah, microformats only represent visible data.
2.) One flat namespace
Not sure what this means. There is one namespace for class names,
yet the markup itself is hierarchical.
3.) No solution for resolving ambiguities
Not sure about
For the most part, our
dictators have been pretty reasonable at trying to keep things
functional and on topic.
Joe, nicely said, and I agree with much of it. However, I thought I
would just point out that the the group of administrators does no't
consist of just Ryan and Tantek. The
On 12/11/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris, are you aware that Ian Hickson and Lachan Hunt on the WHATWG list are
prescribing microformats as the generalized extension mechanism for HTML
(whenever anyone asks for a more generic extension mechanism?)
Mike, this isn't quite true.
On 12/11/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Benjamin West wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is there a difference
between lowercase microformats and uppercase microformats?
lowercase microformats = unofficial semantic markup embedded in HTML
uppercase microformats
Some clarification:
Isn't microformats more than one microformat? And what is a
microformat? I thought a microformat was a specific collection of
defined names and structure defined by a rigorous process of market
research intended to consider pervasive use of semantic html in order
to
.could ever contribute to the semantic web in a meaningful way will stand
the test of taxonomic revisions
I agree with this. It's unclear to me how the current proposal even
relates to the research gathered, and what use cases it might support.
Typically, microformat proposals are heavily
Benjamin West wrote:
Talk of general microformats doesn't make sense. Talk of microformats as
technique also does not make sense.
If that is true, then having Microformat Design Patterns[1] doesn't make
sense. Which is it?
I'm not sure what you mean. A design pattern is a technique, which
If people want to filter things out, or draw particular attention to a
thread being related to a specific proposal, using the [hCard]
notation (for example) works quite well in the subject field.
I concur. Filtering features are well supported on many of the mail
clients I've seen, and a
It's now two weeks since I wrote the above, and nothing has changed.
Seems like a lot has changed to me. Lots of people are working on the wiki.
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
It's too bad we can't tag e-mail messages. That way your colleagues
could filter this mailing list and only get the messages they want.
Don't we already employ a sort of tagging through use of square
brackets? [uf-discuss] seems like a tag to me. Followed by [hcard] or
[species] would tag
huh? I thought technorati already had attention.xml, not to mention
whatever format attentiontrust uses.
On 10/23/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Anyone seen the attention profiling mark-up language?
Any thoughts? They've got a draft spec:
So, what if your take on this problem and use-case?
Search engines make use of shingles to identify pages and their
aliases. Some search engines employ teams of editors and solicit
feedback from the web community to ensure their aliasing techniques
are correct. As far as I can tell, this
I'm going to poll a few experts on this. I'll let you know when I get
some feedback.
It's probably more important to poll already published content, to
learn how the market place is already doing it. This is the whole
point of documenting examples, analyzing publishing behaviour, and
only
Andy, I don't want to get in the middle of a disagreement, but I think
that part of Ben's issue is that the terms you're asking about are
fairly self explanatory, or at least appear to be to him.
You aren't in the middle. I'm deliberately stepping back so that
others can comment. This is a
I work with experts in this field and so it's a simple task for me to
ask around.
Neat.
Going back to learning how the market place is doing it, I've yet to
see an example that uses the term binomial as a class name in markup.
If I find an example, I'll post it.
Great, that's exactly what I
This is catered for, in the current proposal, thus:
span class=biota [1]
abbr class=binominal title=Solanum tuberosum
span class=variety [2]
Maris Piper
/span
/abbr
/span
Allow me to simplify my earlier post.
Andy,
Perhaps you could be more clear about what it is you want to know.
...
What do you mean by authoring practices?
...
What do you mean by the structure of the markup?
...
I don't know how to be any more clear. I've assumed up until now that
everyone had a relatively shared meaning of
It reflects current publishing practice as precisely and completely as
possible ...
I'm still wondering how it does so.
I'm not sure what else I can tell you.
Perhaps we have different understandings of some words? We must not
be sharing some crucial foundational concepts. Allow me to
Yes, I was thinking of something like this. We can think of a given
microformat as being at some place along a spectrum that ranges from:
not thought of, interesting/compelling, rejected, needs work,
documenting examples, brainstorming, official, drafts, iterations...
and so on. I agree that we
I think this has been mentioned before, but I'll mention it again.
From http://microformats.org/wiki/geo:
geo is a 1:1 representation of the geo property in the vCard
standard (RFC2426 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2426.txt)) in XHTML
As you can see, the authors of the spec weren't the ones
Isn't address supposed to contain contact information for the page itself?
On 10/21/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I seem to remember mentioning this before, but can't find where I did
so, nor any responses.
It seems to me that there should be some way to say that the URL of an
I use gaim. Nice unified interface for all my chatting needs.
On 10/20/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sure then, next week. :)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tantek Ç
elik
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 5:01 AM
To:
Initiatives
Library of Congress
e - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
p - 202/707-9541
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/17/06 3:39 PM
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Benjamin
West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Regarding the specs bit, I meant to refer to the various stages of the
process. The spec landing page might contain
Should this stuff be in a FAQ or be made into a uF principle page?
On 10/18/06, Charles Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Is is considered better to have longer, easier-to-read, more
descriptive, more semantically correct attribute values over shorter,
more concise, bandwidth-saving ones?
On
On 10/18/06, Mike Schinkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A form would be nice, but it takes time to develop and we can't expect they
will be developed before people are interested.
Actually this is already done. There are
generators/creators/___-o-matics or whatever the current term is for
/
They get linked to the spec and then get offly confused.
-justin thorp
**
Justin Thorp
Web Services - Office of Strategic Initiatives
Library of Congress
e - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
p - 202/707-9541
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/17/06 3:39 PM
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Benjamin
West
On 10/18/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You forgot:
Actually, I was summarizing and synthesizing, not forgetting.
* Veteran Experts
* Looking for new things
* Might be looking/adopting things for the sake of coolness/newness
* uF's seem new and cool?
* Probably little
a refinement of your categories on the to-do
list? Can you also enumerate the categories of content generally available
on the wiki?
Again, same comment... And was this for me, or everyone?
-Mike
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benjamin
Andy, it's hard to say for sure.. I assume you are referring to the
irc logs from yesterday[1]?
I remember being in the channel at the time, so let me add some
context to the quote:
--
#
# [18:32:56] kingryan re the mailing list proposals...
# [18:33:01] tantek maybe a diagram would help ;)
Andy,
Thanks for the prompt response; apologies if my own aren't so prompt.
There also seems to be a presumption that newbies will initially be
interested in authoring, that is almost certainly fallacious, and at
best unsupported by evidence.
Ah, that's interesting. Mind if I quote you on
On 10/16/06, Justin Thorp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ben, I really like your idea of giving the wiki a better sense of organization.
Justin, thanks, but this isn't my idea. Many others have expressed
their ideas and desires as well.
Is it possible within MediaWiki to have some type of
]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benjamin
West
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 5:29 PM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec- no specification included!
On 10/16/06, Justin Thorp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ben, I really like your idea of giving the wiki a better
Mike, I've added the lack of goals to wiki-feedback. I've also added
to the faq http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Class_semantics to add
your point about multiple classes in elements. It needs some
polishing; I did little more than ask the question and then answer
yes.
Ben
On 10/16/06, Mike
, and so your refinement on the wiki would be very helpful.
Thanks for the ack.
-Mike
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benjamin
West
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 12:12 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] hCalendar spec
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info covers
the issue of how to use an hCard to represent an organization:.
Some questions for Roger:
* Did you see this resource?
* If you hadn't seen it, if you had seen it, would it still have been
unclear how to mark up for an
Wow. Nice job all around!
Here's my added twist to it. I took the URI Andy just posted, and
sent it through lm orchard's xstlproc on the web to fetch my rss to
hyperscope xslt and transform it. Since he's got hyperscope on his
host, the document displays just fine.
Incredible stuff.
Can you make a list of places that don't seem consistent and add them
to the todo page?
On 10/5/06, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 4, 2006, at 9:45 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
Hi all: I've been looking at the examples on the Wiki, especially
hCard, hCalendar and hResume. Many of the
Just to build on what Ryan said about optimization for publishers:
Yes, microformats can be hard to parse. However, it is significantly
easier than attempting to parse this information in the absence of
microformats (just plain text, or plain old html [POH, anyone?]).
Ben
On 10/6/06, Ryan
Quick Summary:
* MF mention starts about a quarter of the way in.
* hCalendar in particular
Neat. It's a bit long; microformats are mentioned about a quarter of
the way in after talking about tables and links. Much of the
discussion that follows is about microformats, hCalendar in
particular.
This is clearly a usability problem. This is a re-ocurring complaint
in the IRC channel as well. Is our only answer really you need to
change your username to UserName.!?
On 9/27/06, brian suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Andy Mabbett wrote:
Finally (from me, for now), I've had an e-mail from
This has already been done twice by Les Orchard:
http://decafbad.com/trac/wiki/XoxoOutliner
http://decafbad.com/blog/2005/12/01/feedrolls-in-xoxo-from-opml-via-xslt-and-url-line-magic
http://decafbad.com/2005/11/gopher-ng/xoxo-to-hyperscope.xsl
I do this kind of thing all the time. For example, I have something
that allows me to transclude bug information across internal wiki's by
including some javascript that looks for things like span
class=sugar bug title=bug_number345/span . When the
bookmarklet/javascript runs, it looks up the
something like the DashPress widget,
extract the XML-RPC JS and allow people to post to any blog from that
page?
Chris
On 9/10/06, Benjamin West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Here's a really dumb, minimal version:
http://dichotomize.com/uf/hatom/creator.html
1.) no harm in doing it anyway.
2
Great idea! I'm cross posting lists because this particular post has
a lot in common. Seems to be that copy-pasting the behaviour.js
script inline with your GM script would work no need to load it
remotely. Not sure what you mean by the obvious way, although I'm not
terribly familiar with
I've been watching this thread with some hesitation. I'm from the
classical world and am usually frustrated with the attributes most
people capture in music meta formats. Consumption of classical music
is a bit different from pop music. The attributes of data that are
important shift meanings
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