does anyone have any ideas about good ways to specify cities and countries
in hcalendar listings?
What would be the best way to do this?
I see a lot of people just putting a city or state name in the location
field but it would be nice if there was a standard way to to this.
(there can be
the semantics the better, right?
if someone had a mixture of hcalendar and hcard entries on the same page I
think using bday would be better
- less chance of it getting mixed up with the start date of something else
even when the markup is not absolutely correct.
Michael MD
SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com
re:
http://www.dgabcsolutions.com.br/preview/camarascs/cm_home.asp
Is it actually allowed to have a hcalendar event without a date?
If so that could be a problem .. I think in the parser I want to put
together that will have to be a requirement.
(even for recurring events there must be some kind
For example,
* ease of authoring *
abbr class=dtstart
title=19970903T163000ZSeptember 3, 1997, 16:30/abbr
attribute content
Here there is a redundancy of information, one which is easily
accessible, the content part of the element, and one which is
And all the HTML. The problem is that we need a shared language in
order to communicate, and machines are bad at translation. At some
point before parsing, all multi-lingual class names would need to be
translated to a lingua franca that can be understood by all
machines. There is no good
[related to hCalendar and pretty much anything calendar-related]
I have a couple of questions about timezones and TZ.
does anyone here know of a good source of up-to-date timezone data?
so far on my website for local events timezones have not been used and
events have been assumed to be in the
I believe the most common flaw in vevents is currently missing or
incorrect timezones. I was just looking at how timezones are shown
in the examples, and discovered that they aren't. Every single
example is marked as Z. On the live web, I don't see many actually
converting their times to
I've got some experience in this area and would be happy to help out.
The original tests that I wrote up
[http://svn.lifelint.com/hcalendar_tests/] all used Z (UTC) if a
timezone was added, but a timezone may legitimately be left off for
all day events.
on spraci presently most events in
The problems I see related to specifying event locations (what city an event
is in) and categories (such as music genres, etc) in calendar data for
public syndication/aggregation/sharing is in the lack of ways to specify
things like cities/countries and categories in existing calendar software.
I think I know where the people in the mf-dev conversation think
about this (Dan, Tantek, Brian and myself) , but I'd like to open
this discussion up to more people, as it was the potential to impact
publishers.
I've tried to subscribe to mf-dev a few times and gave up - no response...
Thanks for informing me of the eventual decision - it is appreciated.
I'm glad you've gone for the shortened version too.
what was the decision? ... missed it
I would prefer to use floating dates if I can for now because it seems
that timezone support between different calendar clients
): is music-examples somewhat dead or stalled? And if
yes, is my subverting it towards Artist/Release/Track data (and away
from media info) apropos?
If you have examples of this I would very much like to see them!
Michael MD
SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/
SPRACI for mobiles: wap.spraci.com
I'm not sure of examples off hand but there are a lot of similarities
between books and albums:
UPC
Cover
Description/Abstract
Release Date
Tracks/Chapters
Label/Publisher
Artist/Author
Copyright
License?
Format
...and so on.
yes there are definately similarities with books and
Naturally, downgrading to iCal 1.0
(http://www.imc.org/pdi/vcal-10.txt) will result in successful import,
because none of the above restrictions apply.
so I guess I must be using iCal 1.0 for the Outlook links on events
pages...
(It was only able to test these links recently in Outlook and
On 7/19/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ah ha!
http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-6095705.html
A rather self-serving argument. Of course Google wants all the
intelligence in search engines.
I do think his point about misuse by people trying to spam search engines is
a
I was trying out a windows app called EventSherpa (which claims to be an
iCal clone for Windows) and noticed that it has a freeform
Subcategory field that allows entry of any categories (without needing to
predefine them).
(it is populated with the categories data from a subscribed calendar)
I don't really see much chance of any kind of rating system that relies on
the honesty of publishers working very well in the real world.
I doubt that many porn, casino, etc sites would be honest about ratings if
they think there is any chance it may be used to block their sites.
It would be a
I'm thinking about easy (for the user) ways an event promoter could add
machine-readable data to their emails for adding events to spraci.com
I get a lot of emails about upcoming events but there is no time to do data
entry
(I say to them the correct way to add events to spraci.com is to use the
http://www.webdirections.org/
anyone here going to this?
I noticed that John Allsopp is doing a talk on Microformats there.
I'm still trying to decide if I'm going - I'd love to go and its a very rare
opportunity to go to something like this here in Sydney but the ticket price
is very high. I
Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude?
Some information (such as data used for street maps) would obviously have to
be as accurate as possible but there would be other cases where it would be
useful to just be able specify that something is in a certain city and
easily
There are several problems with this:
* Service providers usually require you to pay before you can contact
someone you've found or vice versa.
Such sites usually allow you to browse user profiles for free, but expect
you to pay to contact anyone so I think there is probably a need for a way
to
There are formats being discussed for marking up currency. hListing has
the ability to markup prices, although I think it should be free to
contact someone. It would be if we had the ability to list profiles on
our own sites (where we wouldn't be restricted by the contact info we
can
Is there a way to specify the accuracy of latitude/longitude?
I suspect you actually mean 'precision' not 'accuracy', no?
yes pecision is probably closer to what I meant
I don't think the character of the resource being described is enough.
What do you mean by 'character of the
I was just emailing with someone who's company offers software as a
service
and I was encouraging him to adopt Microformats including hCard and
hCalendar. His response to me was:
The good news is Apple in on our board, which means CalDAV would be
the
standard we'd employ.
CalDEV:
For the specific example you mention, the '2 hours' declaration could
probably be used as the DURATION (probably with an ABBR) and then
transcluded into each VEVENT using the include-pattern.
do many parsers out there support include-pattern yet?
... whereas any older or very simple
Almost nobody in the UK refers to a cell-phone; it is more likely to be
correct as:
abbr class=type title=CellMobile/abbr
almost nobody outside USA refers to a cell-phone!
:-)
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Thinking about it, demanding the use of the geo microformat might
even be redundant in some countries like the USA: Google Maps (and
others) have geo-lookups built into the API now, so a good adr in
an hcard would be enough.
Even such geocoding services are still not quite smart
support the basics - summary, dtstart, dtend,
etc) I guess - when in doubt, keep it as simple as possible!
Michael MD
SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/
SPRACI for mobiles: wap.spraci.com
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Is there a good way to say that an event is part of another event?
- like a way to distinguish an event that is part of a conference from an
entry describing the whole conference which might be used on a listing of
upcoming conferences..
___
--- this is when you will have to give an ISO date of what you think
best respresents that season.
I hope this won't encourage people to put in approximate dates (as full
dates) to represent a month when the day of the month is not known when
marking up future events that may end up being
What about usability linkjuice? I don't want my users to drift off to a
third-party site, and I don't want them presented with a huge array of
clickable options. I simply want a machine-consumable, human-readable
list of tags.
I've got another problem here... I want to use my own tagspace but
UK is the abbreviated form of United Kingdom. As such, it should be in
the content of the tag, or else using the abbr element is unnecessary.
However, I have no clue as to whether the class country- name is
appropriate for country codes, which seems to be the issue. I was just
commenting
Yep, a combined profile would certainly be useful. There is still
value in having multiple profiles in that it allows independent
development (and deployment), microformats at different levels of
maturity can comfortably coexist.
I've been experimenting with trying to parse such profiles into
Users should *not* be
encouraged
to publish HTML markup they cannot read.
That been happening out there in the real world with html for years with
wysiwyg editors!
... and the fact that some of them generate bad or bloated markup is not
going to stop the masses from using them.
Personally
But Michael can, of course, better clarify for himself exactly what
he was looking for and not finding.
I just thought I might be able to use the profile idea to provide a way to
tell a parser what to look for. If they are not meant for that then that is
my mistake. I just thought I might be
Why aren't you just using a mailto?
I suspect because he wants people to be directed to a page where they can
get in touch, instead.
Perhaps he wants to be a sneaky bastard (tm) and take people to a
different version of the website (perhaps a wrapper) while allowing the
real website name
Unfortunately the third dimension is being rejected at this time. However,
if the vCard spec is updated to include an altitude component, then it
will definately become a part of the hCard spec too.
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues
I think altitude might be useful to some people ...
Elevation: abbr class=elevation title=2012.02012./abbr
I assume this is in the international metric standard of metres?
(some Americans might try to mark it up in feet which would really confuse
things...)
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One problem here is that many people may be unwilling to publish their
email addresses on a web page, because of the certainty that the
address
will be picked up by spammers. This may limit the number of cases where
this would be useful.
I can't see that as a problem to not go ahead. I
I'm thinking about creating a list of recommented software for event
promoters/organisers to use on their websites so that they can submit their
listings to listings sites for aggregation.
If anyone knows of any existing calendar scripts or CMS modules (or are
working on any) that use hCalendar
1. Suppose a web page has multiple geo Microformats. The Operator
Find a Google Map currently allows only a mashup of one geo
Microformat at a time with Google Maps.
I would like an option that
would display all the geo Microformats simultaneously. For example, a
web page that shows the
iso date isn't necessarily required when someone enters a date (i.e.
saying 24th June doesn't translate into a single date, neither does
'thursday'). Shouldn't the focus be on trying to standardise date
I'm normally all for liberalness in parsing but NOT when the intended
meaning becomes
Q1 '07: span class=dtstart2007-01-01/span through abbr
class=dtend title=2007-04-022007-04-01/abbr
I have proposed a solution to this problem:
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Simplification_of_date-end
I do agree that such counter-intuitive things could
I don't think this will work, for the same reason tel-type and adr- type
don't work: l10n/i18n. They require displayed machine values to be in
English.
span class=vmonth lang=enJuly/span
span class=vmonth lang=esjulio/span
span class=vmonth lang=jp7 月/span
span class=vmonth lang=ruиюль/span
I agree that i18n is a stumbling block here. But, descriptions, titles
and names aren't translated as well, why would the date need be? Let's
put the smarts into the parsers and figure out which date we mean, and
have the user confirm it.
The place for such user confirmation is in authoring
I was evangelizing microformats, hCard in particular, to a client
today and he had the very valid question: Are there any tools for IE?
I got the same questions at an ISP I work for when I showed them Operator
and Tails in Firefox.
Some more tools for IE might also help convince more people
I think this was the page mentioned a while back
http://spaces.live.com/editorial/rayozzie/demo/liveclip/liveclipsample/clipboardexample.html
btw ...
I have Firebug (useful DOM-Inspector-like tool) installed in Firefox and on
that page noticed it is showing some parsing errors generated by
Obviously I could just include the information, even though it serves no
function for the human readers of the site. But I am reluctant to add
redundant information that serves no function to human readers -- part
of the draw of u-formats for me is the ability to have added semantic
So, on the tail of RecentChangesCamp Montreal
(http://www.rocococamp.info/), there's an effort to work out some
universal conventions for wiki engines to indicate that a page is
editable.
Good idea in theory ... but what about the possible misuse by spambots
crawling for places to post their
I do very much like the idea of some native support for microformats in
browsers.
I also think it draws attention to the need to keep parsing rules as simple
as possible so as not to significantly slow down the loading of pages!
___
Is the object tag to be used instead for the include pattern?
given the complexity it adds to non-browser-based parsers I'm wondering if
include-pattern is too much trouble to bother with
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AFAIK this is now fixed in Outlook 2007, consider upgrading if your
preferred calendar application is Outlook.
haven't seen this yet .. around here everyone is still using Outlook 2003 or
earlier
I'd love to know if Outlook 2007 can import/export a calendar (from/to iCal
format) rather than
A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP,
maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some
of the UI
stuff it did was really good.
I haven't seen the Smart Tags stuff (where do I find it?)... could it be
somehow adapted for use with microformats?
... or
The thunderbird developers have been asking about microformats, so they
are definitely looking into it.
awesome!
will there be authoring tools in Thunderbird too?
I've been looking for years for some easy-to-use authoring software to
suggest to media publicists to embed machine-readable
So it appears that none of the address sub-elements are being classified
at all, just simply poured into the adr td and broken up with br's.
To be parsed they should be wrapped in classified elements like the
I'm not surprised at all to see this kind of thing out there.
There are a lot of
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars
the link to the example is broken - we05.com seems to no longer exist.
Is there another example somewhere?
Now that I have managed to get my parser to handle include-pattern I'd like
to look at any other stuff it
http://microformats.org/wiki/dfn-design-pattern
* Feedback from the people building parsers (Mike Kaply, Brian Suda,
etc.) on whether this would be tricky or easy to implement.
quite easy I think...
my own scripts that parse hcalendar don't really care what tag is used
for dtstart or dtend
On 8/20/07, Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
quite easy I think...
my own scripts that parse hcalendar don't really care what tag is used
for dtstart or dtend - they look for those class names (and the title
attribute)
--- just a quick FYI, this would be an incorrect implementation
Should there be a way for people to have this information but not make
it available
as a vcard or vevent?
or a way to tell what kind of thing the vevent or vcard represents?
(so that a parser can work out how it should be displayed based on criteria
chosen by the user)
I think there may be
Do any of the uf guys at brighton right now have some uf stickers? can i
please beg for some? :)
Thom, find me, I may have a few remaining (as well as a few folded pocket
cheat sheets).
does anyone have any in Sydney, Australia?
___
My feeling is that the Wiki content on the include pattern needs a
tidy anyway, but if this issue with firing unwanted requests is
unfixable, I think we should restructure to promote the hyperlink-
include as the first-choice solution.
I would agree with that... even here such extra unecessary
One more change I'm considering for Operator.
Removing support for an adr by itself in the UI.
Basically the problem is that unlike just about other microformat
(except geo), there's really nothing good to display for adr in the UI
(the address just looks silly). And because I try so hard to
site. One example for a site full of vcards is
http://www.computerbild.de/cb-Service-Herstelleradressen_465611.html.
It's not the fn org causing the trouble, as the errors from Firebug occurs
on line 369.
It appears to be hundreds of the same duplicate error that firebug is
showing. I'd guess
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Benjamin
Hawkes-Lewis
Sent: Monday, 17 December 2007 7:33 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Precise Expansion Patterns
Manu Sporny wrote:
There are really two questions that we're
what about html5's datetime attribute?
(would only be of use in html5 though)
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This would be acceptable:
span class=durationspan class=seconds3/span seconds/span
Or if we wanted to use the hMeasurement approach:
span class=duration title=3sthree seconds/span
span class=duration title=2min 3stwo minutes, three
seconds/span
span
I think your best bet on that would be to use X2V (or the likes) or a
JS based approach.
unless you are only aiming at a relatively small number of early adopters
forget about using javascript on phones using the browsers they come with.
Only the latest models are likely to have much chance of
I presume the ease of implementation is referring to a *parser*
grabbing the data from another resource. As far as marking up a
document, I don't see how the vast majority of use cases should
dictate this and it is certainly trivial to provide a
relative/absolute URL in the href (e.g.
Does anyone know if Operator supports microformats in HTML mail via
Thunderbird? If not, any plans?
I would LOVE to see some of those event promoters who keep sending me those
colourful html emails about events mark up their emails in hCalendar!
...or at least include *something* machine
I'm not sure I'd bother distinguishing between landline and mobile,
for the same reasons that you mentioned. It's largely irrelevant. My
choice of work, home, mobile was more an indication of where I'm
likely to be if you reach me on one of these numbers, ie, if you know
I'm at home, you're
Would you, for example, put down, preferred from 0900-1700IST, except
on weekends and between the 5th and 15th of May, unless you're signed
up with plan foo on provider bar as meta info for the number?
No,
but people might sometimes like to know if its a mobile or a landline (and
perhaps
Why doesn't the following work for you, then?
div class=haudio
span class=contributorPrimal Scream/span -
span class=albumScreamadelica/span
/div
That may be fine for someone who just wants to mark up some tracks they like
on a personal blog ... but an artist or record store may want to
people write dates, addresses, etc on the Web or on their emails. Asking
people to write Tuesday, February 5, 2008 in this order, with the
commas, etc. is very likely even simpler for normal people than writing
you would *think* so - and it would certainly be nice but the behaviour
or
But much of these bad things can be aleviated by one of the other
suggestions in this thread: As-you-type validation. As soon as you
type in Feb for instance, autocomplete style routines kick into
action, helping the author write the date in exactly the right format.
Then as they hit publish it
Do you or anyone know of any microformats integration work with TinyMCE
or any insight into why it hasn't happened yet? Seems like there has
been some talk about this on this list back in 2006.
I did have a go at something like this a couple of years ago but at the time
my javascript
Standardisation might be interesting here as well. For instance back
to blog comments. Comments from within aggregators would likely be
simpler where comment form definitions can be established
programmatically.
The problem is that comment spammers would love that too!
(similar issue as with
Web::Scraper
http://search.cpan.org/dist/Web-Scraper/
Interesting ... didn't know about that one...
I had a go at a perl parser for microformats a couple of years ago:
Test version here
http://www.spraci.com/cgi-bin/microformats.cgi
I tried to keep dependencies down to a minimum for this.
...but withal that wrong naming of the jCard attributes, microJSON is
a good idea to solve this given problem.
We should use the started wiki page: http://microformats.org/wiki/json
to find the best mapping between the HTML- and JSON version of a
Microformat.
interesting ... I was looking
• support of nested includes
nested includes? !
my guess is that anyone doing that would be asking for trouble!
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On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 8:30 AM, Julian Bond [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
- Modifications to reduce dependencies and just possibly work with PHP4
-1 from me, PHP5 is approaching 4 years old and PHP6 is just around
the corner, and the gains from using PHP5's object syntax are almost
Remember that any page these occur on would presumably have a language
specification such as en-us so computers would be able to deal with
standard month and day of week names and abbreviations.
I'm sorry, but this sounds like a really bad idea. Parsers would need to
maintain translation tables
I would hate to inflict an ISO date on my sighted readers either.
actually I don't mind sometimes showing people -mm-dd.
The general public does need a bit of education about writing dates clearly!
At least they can't be confused with some other date!
... but on many pages out in the big
Guillaume Lebleu wrote:
span class=dstart lang=en-usOctober 5, 2004/span
Cognition already supports this as a last ditch attempt at parsing
dates - but I wouldn't recommend it get adopted widely. It's too
unreliable; too much work to deal with internationalisation; too much
work
The focus seems to have drifted toward smarter parsing of dates, but the
Sure ... splitting the date into day, month and year could be workable, or
somehow describing a date format in another element, if there is a standard
way to do it and it is easy to do, but I'm opposed to anything that
4. Respect the natural language, calendar, and writing system preferences
of the human content author.
The ONLY way I can see to do that without compromising on reliability or
speed would be to actually fully describe the date format in the markup in
the page itself.
IMHO, what this highlights is the need to push adoption of plugins
that make it easier to publish microformatted html in blog posts and
such.
A few of us who write posts by hand, have no problem sprinkling
microformats in our posts, but to become common place, we need to have
the mainstream
http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/
looks interesting ...
might there be a way to search for classnames with this soon?
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I would like to ask please can we (the community) start talking about
rev microformats again please, I know that rev is grandfathered in new
Microformats because most of the time the average author gets it wrong
... html5 doesn't have the rev attribute ...
On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Tantek Celik [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Such companies are already going to far greater extents to scrape
anything resembling contact information (without really caring about
false positives etc since as your quotes point out quantity is their
game) from text,
Try iCalendar's RDATE property.
Does much software actually implement this kind of thing in the iCal world?
Or is it still kind of maybe/maybe not (not to be relied apon) like
timezones!
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