Re: VPN(8) pf.conf

2006-09-13 Thread Kian Mohageri
On 9/12/06, Gustavo Rios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While reading VPN(8) manual page, i could no figure it out in what interface context the following line applies: # Pass encrypted traffic to/from security gateways pass in proto esp from $GATEWAY_B to $GATEWAY_A pass out proto esp from

Re: VPN(8) pf.conf

2006-09-13 Thread Gustavo Rios
On 9/13/06, Kian Mohageri [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/12/06, Gustavo Rios [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While reading VPN(8) manual page, i could no figure it out in what interface context the following line applies: # Pass encrypted traffic to/from security gateways pass in proto esp from

Re: VPN(8) pf settings

2006-09-13 Thread Gustavo Rios
What about ipencap protocol? Where does it play? On 9/13/06, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gustavo Rios wrote: Dear friends, I am starting to learn VPN, and i am very confused with some points. For instance, concerning firewall rules. It is not clear right now, on which interface i

Re: VPN(8) pf settings

2006-09-13 Thread Jason McIntyre
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 01:00:42AM -0300, Gustavo Rios wrote: Dear friends, I am starting to learn VPN, and i am very confused with some points. For instance, concerning firewall rules. It is not clear right now, on which interface i should see the protocol esp, ipencap, ah, etc. I could

Re: can www execute sendmail -t?

2006-09-13 Thread Woodchuck
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, Bryan Irvine wrote: if(pclose(mail)) err(2, NULL); that did it. I don't understand why though. Got a cluestick handy? Not really. That's just a common idiom for making a system call and aborting if there is an error.

ral0 hostap Power Save Polling Problem

2006-09-13 Thread Thomas Schoeller
hello, i have a problem with me wrap board and a gigabyte ral card in hostap mode. when my ibook or my thinkpad(with windows) is on battery then i have packet lost. when the notebooks are connected to power the connection is fine. it seem i have this problem:

Re: ral0 hostap Power Save Polling Problem

2006-09-13 Thread Thomas Schoeller
sorry, forgot the dmesg. OpenBSD 4.0 (GENERIC) #1103: Thu Aug 31 19:36:08 MDT 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC cpu0: Geode(TM) Integrated Processor by National Semi (Geode by NSC 586-class) 267 MHz cpu0: FPU,TSC,MSR,CX8,CMOV,MMX cpu0: TSC disabled real mem =

question about nat and pf behaviour ...

2006-09-13 Thread Stefan Sczekalla-Waldschmidt
Hi, I have a Router/Gateway with: dc1: flags=8843UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 1500 address: 00:80:c8:c9:88:95 media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX full-duplex) status: active inet6 fe80::280:c8ff:fec9:8895%dc1 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x2 inet

fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Han Boetes
Hi, I noticed file corruption with a ide drive mounted via an external usb casing, so I fsck'ed the FFS filesystem with fsck -fy /dev/sd0a And after putting out a lot of data it gets stuck at: -1808525061 BAD I=1937144 961017051 BAD I=1937144 427404402 BAD I=1937144 429040826 BAD I=1937144

Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Marcos Laufer
Take a look at www.mybboard.com - Original Message - From: Michael Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc@openbsd.org Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 8:13 AM Subject: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems? Hello, which experiences or what knowledge are/is available

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Pedro Martelletto
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 02:19:36PM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR These look highly suspicious, but just for the sake of it, can you please provide the

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread mickey
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 10:06:43AM -0300, Pedro Martelletto wrote: On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 02:19:36PM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR These look highly

Exceptions at transparent proxy.

2006-09-13 Thread João Salvatti
Hi all, I use transparent proxy, but I have some machines that should access some subnets without proxy, in order to gain access to some applications. When I allow the straight connection to these subnets only the first subnet in the list has effect. The connection to other subnets continue to

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Han Boetes
Pedro Martelletto wrote: On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 02:19:36PM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR These look highly suspicious, but just for the sake of it,

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Han Boetes
mickey wrote: Pedro Martelletto wrote: Han Boetes wrote: umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR These look highly suspicious, but just for the sake of it, can you please

NAT Question

2006-09-13 Thread Monah Baki
Hi all, Yesterday I just received 8 public IP addresses from my ISP. I'm running ppp on my OpenBSD 3.9 server (DSL). My xl0 has the public IP address (67.100.x.x) provided to me by my ISP, my xl1 interface is my 192.168.3.1 Once I run /usr/sbin/ppp -ddial pppoe, my tun0 gets created If I issue a

Re: Exceptions at transparent proxy.

2006-09-13 Thread Martin Toft
Joco Salvatti wrote: Hi all, I use transparent proxy, but I have some machines that should access some subnets without proxy, in order to gain access to some applications. When I allow the straight connection to these subnets only the first subnet in the list has effect. The connection to

Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Adam
Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He said good and secure. Phpbb is neither. Perhaps you would like to offer an alternative Nope. instead of just dissing the phpBB users? I didn't say anything about any users. Your definition of good is probably different, and phpBB might not meet

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Pedro Martelletto
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 04:38:40PM +0159, Han Boetes wrote: I assume you request the relevant lines: UID PID PPID CPU PRI NI VSZ RSS WCHAN STAT TT TIME COMMAND 0 32054 1087 0 10 0 348 4 wait IW+ p50:00.01 fsck -fy /dev/sd0a 0 2545 32054 4

Re: ral0 hostap Power Save Polling Problem

2006-09-13 Thread Damien Bergamini
I'll look at these PSP problems after 4.0. Thanks for your report. Damien | hello, | i have a problem with me wrap board and a gigabyte ral card in hostap | mode. when my ibook or my thinkpad(with windows) is on battery then i | have packet lost. when the notebooks are connected to power the |

Strange networking problems using stock SMP 3.9 kernel

2006-09-13 Thread SIGOURE Benoit
Hello folks, I've installed OpenBSD 3.9 this morning on a new server (my new gateway @ home) it's a dual-processor so one of the first thing I did (after setting up networking [pf nat/routing, dhcpd and named]) was to # cp /bsd /bsd.bak # cp /bsd.mp /bsd # reboot For some reason, after the

Re: Exceptions at transparent proxy.

2006-09-13 Thread João Salvatti
Thanks folks. On 9/13/06, Martin Toft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joco Salvatti wrote: Hi all, I use transparent proxy, but I have some machines that should access some subnets without proxy, in order to gain access to some applications. When I allow the straight connection to these subnets

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Paul de Weerd
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 04:38:40PM +0159, Han Boetes wrote: | Pedro Martelletto wrote: | On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 02:19:36PM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: | umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR | umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed, IOERROR | umass0: BBB bulk-in stall clear failed,

Hairy Eyeball?

2006-09-13 Thread James Blasius
I have seen references to Hairy Eyeball, a systrace site.. I can't find it. Does it still exist? -- James C. Blasius [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Hairy Eyeball?

2006-09-13 Thread Sigfred Håversen
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 19:32, James Blasius wrote: I have seen references to Hairy Eyeball, a systrace site.. I can't find it. Does it still exist? I think it is dead. There was another site (http://hades.uint8t.org/) run by Luiz Gustavo that had some systrace policies based upon the

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Han Boetes
Pedro Martelletto wrote: Thanks. It would be nice to have this information for the USB threads as well. A ktrace of fsck_ffs (just the last few lines) and the output of 'disklabel sd0' would also be welcome. :-) OK, here we go again: I weeded out all the stuff that's really irrelevant UID

Redundant firewall

2006-09-13 Thread Gustavo Rios
Does pfsync support redundancy for IPSec and NAT too? Thanks in advance.

chroot into Linux image

2006-09-13 Thread Paul Irofti
Hi misc, I've been trying for the last 3 days to chroot (from OpenBSD) to a Linux image, such as /emul/linux. The problem is that all I get is my date being set back to 1970. Basicly what I try/do is: # export SHELL=/bin/sh # mount -t procfs proc /emul/linux/proc # chroot /emul/linux What

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Pedro Martelletto
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 08:57:25PM +0200, Han Boetes wrote: Pedro Martelletto wrote: Thanks. It would be nice to have this information for the USB threads as well. A ktrace of fsck_ffs (just the last few lines) and the output of 'disklabel sd0' would also be welcome. :-) Thanks, but this

Re: Redundant firewall

2006-09-13 Thread Bob Beck
* Gustavo Rios [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-09-13 13:20]: Does pfsync support redundancy for IPSec and NAT too? Thanks in advance. pfsync synch's NAT states along with the rest of pf state. IPsec is not done by pfsync. RTFM at sasyncd(8) for info on how to do that.

Re: chroot into Linux image

2006-09-13 Thread Paul Irofti
fyi NicM is a genius! thumbs up for this guy!!! :) a symlink to /emul/linux in /emul/linux/emul fixed this!! quote NicM it just occurred to me now that once you have chrooted, the kernel will sitll be automatically prefixing /emul/linux to linux binaries NicM and libraries NicM so, the first

Re: chroot into Linux image

2006-09-13 Thread Paul Irofti
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 22:45, Paul Irofti wrote: fyi NicM is a genius! thumbs up for this guy!!! :) a symlink to /emul/linux in /emul/linux/emul fixed this!! erm, what I meant is symlink to / in /emul/linux/emul i.e. # mkdir /emul/linux/emul ln -s / /emul/linux/emul/linux

Re: Redundant firewall

2006-09-13 Thread Henning Brauer
* Bob Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-09-13 21:30]: * Gustavo Rios [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-09-13 13:20]: Does pfsync support redundancy for IPSec and NAT too? Thanks in advance. pfsync synch's NAT states along with the rest of pf state. NAT is nt special - it's beasically just a

Re: Redundant firewall

2006-09-13 Thread Gustavo Rios
What would it be the working group for the IPSec protocol? The one that relates all the necessary RFC for defining it. thanks in advance. On 9/13/06, Henning Brauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Bob Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-09-13 21:30]: * Gustavo Rios [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-09-13 13:20]:

Re: fsck hangs

2006-09-13 Thread Han Boetes
Pedro Martelletto wrote: Thanks, but this ktrace is not really of interest. :-( I was more interested in fsck_ffs (not fsck) to see which location of the disk it's hanging when trying to perform I/O on. doh! Sorry. ~% l ktrace.out -rw--- 1 root users 481M Sep 13 21:59 ktrace.out Ouch!

Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Niall O'Higgins
I don't think I want to use the words good and secure, however PunBB with SQLite works well for a friend's site. It's probably not quite as woeful as PhpBB from a security standpoint, but it still uses PHP. On Tue, Sep 12, 2006 at 01:13:23PM +0200, Michael Schmidt wrote: Hello, which

Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Sigfred Håversen
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 14:35, Marcos Laufer wrote: Take a look at www.mybboard.com The license contains the following gem: The MyBB Group may alter or modify this license agreement without notification and any changes made to the EULA will affect all past and current copies of MyBB.

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Chris Zakelj
Adam wrote: Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He said good and secure. Phpbb is neither. Perhaps you would like to offer an alternative Nope. Then you are a useless troll. This will be my last reply to your filth. instead of just dissing the phpBB users? I

Re: chroot into Linux image

2006-09-13 Thread Christopher Vance
I tried chrooting into an emulated Linux recently, but failed because the version of linux I needed was using a linux syscall not yet included in the kernel emulation. But if you stick to the supported version of linux, you should be okay. -- Christopher

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread bofh
On 9/13/06, Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam wrote: Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He said good and secure. Phpbb is neither. Perhaps you would like to offer an alternative Nope. Then you are a useless troll. This will be my last reply to your filth. Why is

Re: Returned mail: see transcript for details

2006-09-13 Thread Auto-reply from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[This is an auto reply. Please do not reply to this message.] Dear Valued Customer Thank you for your support to Pacific Internet. We appreciate the time you have taken to write to us, and we would like to give you a personal reply. We are currently looking into your enquiry and will be

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Jacob Yocom-Piatt
Original message Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:43:19 -0500 From: bofh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems? To: Open BSD misc@openbsd.org On 9/13/06, Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam wrote: Chris Zakelj [EMAIL

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Chris Zakelj
bofh wrote: Why is that a troll? He offered an opinion on Phpbb. It is neither good nor secure. [see below] Just because he cannot offer an alternative (there may not be a secure alternative even!) Because that sentiment had already been echoed by others. No sense beating dead horses

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Adam
Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam wrote: Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He said good and secure. Phpbb is neither. Perhaps you would like to offer an alternative Nope. Then you are a useless troll. Or maybe I just don't happen to have an

Routing issues

2006-09-13 Thread Fernando Braga
Hi, We've got OpenBSD running as firewall and router for a 100Mbps connection. Our internal network is working OK. However, when someone from outside tries to reach one of our servers, there is a delay and the initial packets get lost. For example: $ sleep 20 ping -c 10 2.4.1.2 ; sleep 1 ;

Re: Routing issues

2006-09-13 Thread Jason Dixon
On Sep 13, 2006, at 8:37 PM, Fernando Braga wrote: Hi, We've got OpenBSD running as firewall and router for a 100Mbps connection. Our internal network is working OK. However, when someone from outside tries to reach one of our servers, there is a delay and the initial packets get lost. For

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Robert Urban
if you want to be taken seriously, maybe you should change your e-mail address to something that isn't offensive to everyone who receives your e-mails, in this case, several thousand people. You're just asking to be misunderstood. People misunderstand, and you wonder why. why don't you grow up?

Re: OpenBSD/cobalt port?

2006-09-13 Thread Jason Dixon
On Sep 13, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Bryan Vyhmeister wrote: I did some searching in the archives and it looked like somebody started working on a port to the Cobalt MIPS-based machines back in 2001. Is there a developer who is interested in making this port happen? I know very little about

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Adam
Robert Urban [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want to be taken seriously, maybe you should change your e-mail address to something that isn't offensive to everyone who receives your e-mails, in this case, several thousand people. I am glad to offend the people who find it offensive. You're

Re: /bsd asking for nonexistent nfs server?

2006-09-13 Thread Doug Carter
On Sep 12, 2006, at 3:49 AM, Joachim Schipper wrote: On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 06:08:22PM -0500, Doug Carter wrote: I really doubt that this is a system problem; I just can't figure out what stupid thing I have done. Using: OpenBSD 3.9 (GENERIC) #617: Thu Mar 2 02:26:48 MST 2006 on a Dell

Para el d�a del amor y la amistad: CD ROM karaoke y juegos $ 15.000

2006-09-13 Thread difusioneducativa
Este mensaje forma parte de nuestro programa de difusion y apoyo educativo. Si desea darse de baja de nuestra lista, haga clic aqui: http://www.vanguardiaeducativa.com/baja/[EMAIL PROTECTED] o responda este mail con asunto DAR DE BAJA y disculpe las molestias ocasionadas.

ports, packages, and dependencies

2006-09-13 Thread Robert Urban
Hi, if this has been answered before, my apologies. If not, it would seem a good candidate for the faq. I'm wondering if dependencies for a particular port can be satisfied via installed packages. For example, I'd like to compile amavisd-new-2.3.2, which lists the following dependencies:

Re: OpenBSD/cobalt port?

2006-09-13 Thread Daniel Ouellet
Jason Dixon wrote: On Sep 13, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Bryan Vyhmeister wrote: I did some searching in the archives and it looked like somebody started working on a port to the Cobalt MIPS-based machines back in 2001. Is there a developer who is interested in making this port happen? I know very

Re: ports, packages, and dependencies

2006-09-13 Thread Adam
Robert Urban [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If not, it would seem a good candidate for the faq. Its already there. I'm wondering if dependencies for a particular port can be satisfied via installed packages. That's the only way they can be satisfied. A port is just the rules on how to make a

Re: ports, packages, and dependencies

2006-09-13 Thread Bill
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 03:39:06 +0200 Robert Urban [EMAIL PROTECTED] spake: Hi, if this has been answered before, my apologies. If not, it would seem a good candidate for the faq. I'm wondering if dependencies for a particular port can be satisfied via installed packages. For example, I'd

Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread steve szmidt
Over the years one gets used to some small things that makes life easier but is only slowly catching up on OBSD. I'm curious as why this is. Is it that real coders don't need some of them, or is it just something like a matter of being a lower priority? * Not needing -a on ifconfig - Now

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread bofh
On 9/13/06, Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bofh wrote: Bad comparison. MSFT's patches are across an entire product line. You are talking about one specific product here. In order to get a valid comparison, you will have to count patches for a product of similar size and

ftp-proxy and PF

2006-09-13 Thread Gustavo Rios
I was reading ftp-proxy code, more specially line 921 to 960 from ftp-proxy.c. In my scenario, i read the add_nat,add_rdr, add_filter as the following structure: rdr from $client to $server port $proxy_port - $server port $port nat from $client to $server port $port - $proxy pass in from

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Bob Beck
... [various other misinformed half truths] ... * Out of date vi, harder to navigate and use, poor visual feedback. vi is completely current. I believe you are thinking of vim which a bunch of linux distros install, and stupidly, alias to vi - it's not the same thing. It is in ports,

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Marco Peereboom
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 10:53:04PM -0400, steve szmidt wrote: Over the years one gets used to some small things that makes life easier but is only slowly catching up on OBSD. I'm curious as why this is. Is it that real coders don't need some of them, or is it just something like a matter of

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Adam
steve szmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Not showing all I/F's by default in ifconfig, requiring -A. This is a good thing. Do you really want every command to just list any possible information in a huge mess? Personally, I like to just get the info I ask for. * Defaulting to bash, easier to

Re: [spam] Re: Forum-Software, good and secure, on OpenBSD systems?

2006-09-13 Thread Chris Zakelj
bofh wrote: On 9/13/06, Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I never said it was secure. In fact, I distinctly recall saying hell no to whether or not I considered phpBB secure. What I *did* say was that it fit my needs, as I laid them out. Which is good to you, but probably isn't good to

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread steve szmidt
On Wednesday 13 September 2006 23:23, Bob Beck wrote: ... [various other misinformed half truths] ... Not so, maybe you did not read it... * Out of date vi, harder to navigate and use, poor visual feedback. vi is completely current. I believe you are thinking of vim which a bunch of

Norton AntiVirus detected and quarantined a virus in a message yo u sent.

2006-09-13 Thread NAV for Microsoft Exchange-MAILSRVNT05
Recipient of the infected attachment: McDonald, Ira\Inbox Subject of the message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] One or more attachments were quarantined. Attachment [EMAIL PROTECTED] was Quarantined for the following reasons: Virus [EMAIL PROTECTED] was found. Virus [EMAIL PROTECTED] was found in

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Ray Percival
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sep 13, 2006, at 7:53 PM, steve szmidt wrote: Over the years one gets used to some small things that makes life easier but is only slowly catching up on OBSD. I'm curious as why this is. Is it that real coders don't need some of them, or is

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Eric Furman
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 22:53:04 -0400, steve szmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: * Defaulting to bash, easier to use - Implemented. OMG, not this again If you like bash install it. VI is proabably the worst as it gets a lot of use. It requires a lot more keystrokes than it's newer versions. It

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Darrin Chandler
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 11:49:29PM -0400, steve szmidt wrote: I don't get very emotional about either one and try to keep things simple. I'm curious to see how many not equally hard core users prefer vi over vim when having a choice. This is an easy choice. The base install should have

ftp-proxy

2006-09-13 Thread Gustavo Rios
Hey folks, i am playing with ftp-proxy and could not understand the benefits of the new one compared to the previous up to 3.8. Could some one enlight me? One thing i realized is the number of rules the new version creates on run time. Whether this feature is a plus i could not understand.

Re: Low priority or real coders

2006-09-13 Thread Andrew Dalgleish
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 11:49:29PM -0400, steve szmidt wrote: I don't get very emotional about either one and try to keep things simple. I'm curious to see how many not equally hard core users prefer vi over vim when having a choice. These days I mostly use vi, because it is already there.