Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
--- Eric Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://search.cpan.org/~ewilhelm/lambda-v0.0.1/lib/lambda.pm Combined with that vim shortcut, this is just too cool :) I'd probably have put it in the Acme:: namespace, though. Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Perl and CGI - http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/ Personal blog - http://publius-ovidius.livejournal.com/ Tech blog - http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/
Re: relative.pm vs import.pm
Sébastien Aperghis-Tramoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: unless I read it wrong, it doesn't provide the feature relative.pm was written for in the first place, that is loading modules using names relative to the current one. If I understand correctly, that would be use import __PACKAGE__; -- Johan
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
# from Ovid # on Thursday 11 October 2007 00:54: I'd probably have put it in the Acme:: namespace, though. Why? AFAICT, the Acme stuff isn't typically intended for production use. I plan to use it early and often. --Eric -- Because understanding simplicity is complicated. --Eric Raymond --- http://scratchcomputing.com ---
Re: relative.pm vs import.pm
* Sébastien Aperghis-Tramoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-11 12:10]: But this will load *all* the modules below the current one, which is not the same thing as loading a set of selected modules. Imagine doing this with Plagger ;) Imagine trying to load all of Plagger’s modules by hand. ;--) Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: RFC: String::Smart
* Andy Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-10 22:45]: Nice email address. :-P This evening I started playing with String::Smart (the name is as provisional as everything else). Something with “language”, “type”, “quoting” or “escaping” would be more appropriate I think. In general a String::Smart string knows which transformations are currently applied to a string and when you ask for a particular representation of that string it computes the path from the current encoding to the desired encoding and applies the transformations in the appropriate order. Have you seen Tom Moertel’s article on applying Haskell to this? http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2006/10/18/a-type-based-solution-to-the-strings-problem See also String::EscapeCage, which was discussed recently on this list, and which is just as horribly named. :-) It differs in that it doesn’t address the chaining you mention, and by hooking itself into tainting. And I’m almost positive that I have seen one more module that tries to address the exact same issue. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: New OO module idea - looking for suggestions
* bmillares [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-10 20:30]: I was wondering if there is any interest out there for such a animal. I am not personally interested. Currently, if I use any OO module at all, it’s Class::InsideOut. And I can’t *wait* for Perl 5.10 to bring along Hash::Util::FieldHash. If I were interested in something more comprehensive I’d use Moose simply because it seems to be becoming the community standard. Basically, it would be and OO implementation closer to how it's currently implemented in Java or C#, my hope is that it would make folks versed in those languages more comfortable with perl Good luck with that. I don’t mean to be down on you, but the fact is that no library ever becomes the standard way of doing things in a language if the base language provides “good enough” ways to do the same thing by hand. You might reasonably argue about how good Perl 5 OO is, but it’s clearly not awful enough that you need a layer on top of it to get anything done. Moose has a singular advantage over other CPAN OO modules here because it’s a backport of the Perl 6 OO system to Perl 5, is extraordinarily comprehensive, and yet aims to coexist seamlessly with non-Moose OO code. So its basic proposition is “use the juicy bits of Perl 6 in your Perl 5 code, but only as much as you like,” which puts it in a league above everyone else by virtue of perception alone. And still I don’t see Moose ever becoming “the no-brainer way of doing OO in Perl 5.” Now, I have no personal opinion on whether you should go forward with your project or not. If you think it’s worth it, go for it. Just don’t delude yourself about the extent of adoption you will get. If your stuff is compelling, you will achieve some amount of adoption and possibly a busy mailing list, just don’t expect it to to become The Way To Do OO In Perl 5, much less rejuvenate Perl in the eyes of Java/C# developers. If the cold shower I’ve administered above hasn’t dissuaded or discouraged you from pursuing your ideas, more power to you. :-) Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: RFC: String::Smart
On 11 Oct 2007, at 11:46, A. Pagaltzis wrote: * Andy Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-10 22:45]: Nice email address. :-P It had to be done :) This evening I started playing with String::Smart (the name is as provisional as everything else). Something with “language”, “type”, “quoting” or “escaping” would be more appropriate I think. Yup, OK. In general a String::Smart string knows which transformations are currently applied to a string and when you ask for a particular representation of that string it computes the path from the current encoding to the desired encoding and applies the transformations in the appropriate order. Have you seen Tom Moertel’s article on applying Haskell to this? http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2006/10/18/a-type-based-solution- to-the-strings-problem Oh that's nice! Thanks for that. See also String::EscapeCage, which was discussed recently on this list, and which is just as horribly named. :-) It differs in that it doesn’t address the chaining you mention, and by hooking itself into tainting. Yeah - it has slightly different aims as far as I can tell. And I’m almost positive that I have seen one more module that tries to address the exact same issue. I assumed there must be one but couldn't find it. Anyone? -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten
RFC: String::Smart
Here's something I've been mulling for probably about eight years without doing anything about it. Particularly in web applications - but in other areas too - people regularly make a complete mess of escaping / unescaping strings. At different times a string may need to be * unescaped plain text * SQL quoted * entity encoded * url encoded * json encoded * etc It may even need to be encoded using some combination of those encodings - in which case the order in which they are applied to the string matters. The continued popularity of XSS exploits, SQL injection bugs etc confirms that people still aren't getting it right. So it must be hard. This evening I started playing with String::Smart (the name is as provisional as everything else). It lets you do my $email = 'Andy Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED]'; my $enc = as html = $email; print $enc\n; # Prints Andy Armstrong lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt Multiple encodings may be applied: # Apply HTML entity encoding and then query encoding # Currently multiple encodings are separated by '_' my $for_query = as html_query = $email; You can also assert that a string is already escaped in some way - although I don't have a clean syntax for that. So you could say my $this = is_already html = 'pA paragraph/p'; my $that = 'Just a string'; my $html_this = as html $this; my $html_that = as html $that; which would give you $html_this = 'pA paragraph/p'; # No transformation - was already HTML $html_that = 'lt;Just as stringgt;'; # Applied entity encoding In general a String::Smart string knows which transformations are currently applied to a string and when you ask for a particular representation of that string it computes the path from the current encoding to the desired encoding and applies the transformations in the appropriate order. So when you're generating a SQL query or a chunk of HTML you can just ask for the 'as sql' or 'as html' version of each string you use without worrying about how it's currently encoded. Currently strings with a non-empty set of encodings turn into a blessed hashref that overloads stringification. I can't think of any other sensible way to associate the 'how is this currently encoded' metadata with a string. I'm open to suggestions. What do people think? Useful? http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/exploits_of_a_mom.png -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten
Re: relative.pm vs import.pm
A. Pagaltzis wrote: * Sébastien Aperghis-Tramoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-11 12:10]: But this will load *all* the modules below the current one, which is not the same thing as loading a set of selected modules. Imagine doing this with Plagger ;) Imagine trying to load all of Plagger's modules by hand. ;--) Right, except I chose Plagger because this is typically a framework where you only load a couple of modules from the gazillions available. -- Sébastien Aperghis-Tramoni Close the world, txEn eht nepO.
Re: lambda - a shortcut for an apology
--- Ovid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, if you want to use it in your own code and your work's code,
that's fine (because I'm sure you find typing CONTROL-SHIFT-EL so
much
easier than sub {} :) but if it shows up in your CPAN modules, you
might get a few complaints since this sugar, while a really nifty
hack,
adds nothing complex but does screw up older editors and will confuse
the heck out of a lot of maintenance programmers.
You know, I was privately called on this and I was wrong. Eric, I'm
sorry and I shouldn't have said this. At this point on the CPAN, it
really doesn't matter what goes out there. I really *do* like this
hack and who am I to say what namespace it should be in?
So my apologies for taking such a negative view. I'm sorry if I gave
offense.
Cheers,
Ovid
--
Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
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Tech blog - http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/
Re: lambda - a shortcut for an apology
Ovid wrote:
--- Ovid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, if you want to use it in your own code and your work's code,
that's fine (because I'm sure you find typing CONTROL-SHIFT-EL so
much
easier than sub {} :) but if it shows up in your CPAN modules, you
might get a few complaints since this sugar, while a really nifty
hack,
adds nothing complex but does screw up older editors and will confuse
the heck out of a lot of maintenance programmers.
You know, I was privately called on this and I was wrong. Eric, I'm
sorry and I shouldn't have said this. At this point on the CPAN, it
really doesn't matter what goes out there. I really *do* like this
hack and who am I to say what namespace it should be in?
So my apologies for taking such a negative view. I'm sorry if I gave
offense.
For what it's worth, I don't think you were necessarily wrong or
excessively negative, you were offering your opinion.
It's definately a neat and clever hack, but I don't think I'd consider
using it in production code; adding a dependency on this module (and
the overhead of loading + parsing that module) for a relatively small
feature seems unreasonable to me.
The biggest reason of course is the surprise for a maintainance
programmer visiting that code later - if it's the first time they've
come across this module then causing them to scratch their heads whilst
thinking what on earth is *that*, and where's it coming from doesn't
strike me as a good idea. (Which is the same reason I'll generally not
import any function, but prefer to call it explicitly like Foo::bar()
so that it's immediately obvious where to look to find it).
My own feeling is that the Acme namespace would have been appropriate as
this module does strike me as neat and fun, but not something I'd use
in production code.
But, as you said, who am I to say what namespace it should be in? :)
Cheers
Dave P
--
David Precious
http://blog.preshweb.co.uk/ :: http://www.preshweb.co.uk/
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
Eric Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Cute, but doesn't it break programs that already use non-ascii (e.g., Latin1)? How? Because it's no different from the utf8 pragma: $ cat t.pl my $x = ë; $ perl -w t.pl $ perl -Mutf8 -w t.pl Malformed UTF-8 character (unexpected continuation byte 0x81, with no preceding start byte) ... Malformed UTF-8 character (1 byte, need 3, after start byte 0xeb) ... (Note that the content of the string in t.pl is a single character 0xeb, which is Latin-1 for e-diaeresis.) -- Johan
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
# from Ovid # on Thursday 11 October 2007 02:08: but if it shows up in your CPAN modules, you might get a few complaints since this sugar, Oh well ;-) It's not an API element, just an internal dependency. It works with perl 5.6.2 and 5.8.8. Would anyone even notice? If you're editing the file that uses it, you'll need a utf8-aware editor. while a really nifty hack, adds nothing complex but does screw up older editors and will confuse the heck out of a lot of maintenance programmers. The great thing about maintenance programmers is that they come from the future (the one where utf8 just works.) --Eric -- To a database person, every nail looks like a thumb. --Jamie Zawinski --- http://scratchcomputing.com ---
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
# from Johan Vromans # on Thursday 11 October 2007 09:41: doesn't it break programs that already use non-ascii (e.g.,Latin1)? How? Because it's no different from the utf8 pragma: $ cat t.pl my $x = ë; $ perl -w t.pl $ perl -Mutf8 -w t.pl Malformed UTF-8 character (unexpected continuation byte 0x81, with no preceding start byte) ... OK, Then it breaks them. How would it not? There's always 'no'. --Eric -- It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object to realize that you are in a hurry. --Ralph's Observation --- http://scratchcomputing.com ---
Re: CPAN security
On 11 Oct 2007, at 18:23, Bill Moseley wrote: In general, I prefer to run make and make test as a normal user and then sudo make install, but sudo cpan sure is easy. But, that's hardly a complete test of code. Grab the latest CPAN, set these two options: make_install_make_command [sudo make] mbuild_install_build_command [sudo ./Build] Then chown your ~/.cpan to yourself (because if you've been doing sudo cpan some of the files will be owned by root) $ sudo chown -R me:me ~/.cpan and stop running CPAN as root. It'll then do make, make test, sudo make install or the ./Build equivalents. That doesn't stop make install doing something hoopy as root of course. -- Andy Armstrong, Hexten
Re: CPAN security
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 06:31:28PM +0100, Andy Armstrong wrote: } On 11 Oct 2007, at 18:23, Bill Moseley wrote: } In general, I prefer to run make and make test as a normal user and } then sudo make install, but sudo cpan sure is easy. But, that's } hardly a complete test of code. } } Grab the latest CPAN, set these two options: } }make_install_make_command [sudo make] }mbuild_install_build_command [sudo ./Build] } } Then chown your ~/.cpan to yourself (because if you've been doing } sudo cpan some of the files will be owned by root) } } $ sudo chown -R me:me ~/.cpan } } and stop running CPAN as root. It'll then do make, make test, sudo } make install or the ./Build equivalents. } } That doesn't stop make install doing something hoopy as root of course. It is also easy to never implicate your /usr/bin/perl in anything. I'd just prefer to quote myself at http://mail.pm.org/pipermail/spug-list/2007-April/007823.html in saying that it's an easier administration task to leave the OS perl alone and have a separate /opt/blah/blah/blah perl for your real work. -- Josh signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
# from David Golden
# on Thursday 11 October 2007 11:25:
Uh, what about a vim shortcut that just does sub {. E.g.:
And why do we have an 'eq' operator instead of 'equals' ?
IMO, shortcuts for typing long things will lead us to Eclipse.
--Eric
--
...our schools have been scientifically designed to
prevent overeducation from happening.
--William Troy Harris
---
http://scratchcomputing.com
---
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
On 10/11/07, Ovid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Combined with that vim shortcut, this is just too cool :)
Uh, what about a vim shortcut that just does sub {. E.g.:
imap ,{ sub {Space
Or even:
imap ,{ sub {SpaceSpace}LeftLeft
-- David
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
--- Eric Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And why do we have an 'eq' operator instead of 'equals' ?
IMO, shortcuts for typing long things will lead us to Eclipse.
lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
my $code = #955; {...}; # instead of sub {...}
;)
Cheers,
Ovid
--
Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/
Perl and CGI - http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/cgi_course/
Personal blog - http://publius-ovidius.livejournal.com/
Tech blog - http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/
Re: lambda - a shortcut for sub {...}
* Eric Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-11 01:05]: http://search.cpan.org/~ewilhelm/lambda-v0.0.1/lib/lambda.pm If I saw this in production code under my responsibility, I’d submit it to DailyWTF. However, I have nothing against its use in code I’ll never see. Carry on. This opinion brought to you by Andy Lester’s Perlbuzz rant. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
