:563/netscape.netscape6.macintosh
Other useful Netscape 6 sites:
http://ufaq.org
http://www.hmetzger.de/net6e.html
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I'm not confused, I'm just well mixed. (Robert Frost)
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
For those of you without hope, we have rooms with color TV,
cable and air conditioning.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
educated than Americans. But let's not get into that
discussion :-).
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Christian Biesinger wrote:
Senator Dan Burton wrote:
Huh? You mean in Moz. Moz 0.9.9 newsreader has a
killfile but it sux.
It doesn't.
Doesn't have a killfile, or doesn't suck?
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
People must
: as Mozilla all ready
renders webpages, it's a very small step to the composer. I'm
willing to bet that removing the composer elements would
decrease Mozilla's footprint infinitesimally at best.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
As goatherd learns his trade by goat
.
;-)
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I take it they got the local kindergarten to paint the
scenery.
Clive Mitchell
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Martin Fritsche wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
Because that's some weird ass non-standard date format.
This side of the pond uses mmdd.
;-)
What's more weird?
small unit - medium unit - large unit or
medium unit - small unit - large unit?
:-Þ
When we
And it came to pass that Glenn Miller wrote:
On 23 Mar 2002, Christopher Jahn was seen to have posted
this wee note into netscape.public.mozilla.general, to
which I have responded as follows:
When we were a frontier society, folks coming in fromt he
wilderness would lose track of time
/2002
But it's not consistant with Non-American English i.e.
everywhere else!
Give it time, you'll come around. You always do...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.
To reply
of
christians in it.
You can't mandate a religon AND be a democracy.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I... have become... comfortably numb
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
]
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side and a dark side
and it
holds the universe together.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
answer to what is dangerously close to a
meaningless question.
The entire discussion IS way off topic; if anyone wants to take
it up in alt.callahan's, nothing is off-topic there, and the
drinks are cheap. (a.c. is a virtual bar)
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
, and uses the latest Gecko rendering engine. And for
THIS group, you should only be discussing the latest Mozilla
release itself, and not the Netscape branded version.
http://www.mozilla.org
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Duct tape is like the force, it has
://www.w3.org/Conferences/WWW4/Papers/100/
Thank you for your time.
Best asked in:
snews://secnews.netscape.com/netcape.communicator
And also try:
http://ufaq.org
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side and a dark side
up.
Mostly security patches, but 6.2.2 is using the 0.9.9 gecko
engine!! For pehaps the first time Netscape 6.xx is almost at a
par with Mozilla!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
So close, no matter how far... couldn't be much more from the
heart. Forever
, and is another example of the Supreme Court's
fallibility.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
So close, no matter how far... couldn't be much more from the
heart. Forever trusting who we are, and nothing else matters.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
, their Constitution declares that theirs is a nation that
believes in the One, True Almighty God.
It does not, however, say anything about the Prophet.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Nothing makes up for genuine lack of planning.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that dman84 wrote:
Kryptolus C.L. wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
Mostly security patches, but 6.2.2 is using the 0.9.9
gecko engine!! For pehaps the first time Netscape 6.xx
is almost at a par with Mozilla!
You sure it uses 0.9.9?
The page says For more
And it came to pass that Jonas Jørgensen wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
Then Netscape announced Navigator, the first commercial
web browser.
So MS bought up a browser called Interet Explorer, but
sales were bad because Navigator was better.
Then MS offered IE free with Windows 95
And it came to pass that Wayne Mery wrote:
Matt Williams wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Jonas Jørgensen wrote:
Mike Hatz (Remove the SPAM) wrote:
What's going on? The news server seemed to eat about
4-6 days of posts and then most everyone else has
vanished
).
No, I think the single most annoying bug I've foudn with
Mozilla is that
if it is the only window open it will not minimize. That
is more
annoying.
Yep. It is annoying.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
The only number that is both even and odd
.
Personally, I'd rather have free speech as guaranteed by
the United States Constitution. But what do I know.
Not much - the Constitution only binds the US government, and no
one else.
But it's what we've come to expect from you.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
not Mozilla's fault. Eventually these
third party programs will catch up.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Ad astra per aspera.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that psmith wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that psmith wrote:
(long rambling and partly incoherent tireade snipped)
I'm not sure what you're on about: Mozilla's present Cookie
management is leaps and bounds beyond Communicator's.
If you're
fill the gaping hole in your
complaint.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Man who falls in blast furnace is certain to feel overwrought.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
Server
Expiration date.
It also allows you to remove cookies, and block them from being
re-accepted.
But little headway can be made until cookie handling is more
standardized than it is currently.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Very funny Scotty. Now beam down my
PROTECTED])
to work with most servers.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
We don't hate vegetarians, we just think they're funny.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
://news.mozilla.org/. (They are actually the same
server -- the
difference lies in the news vs snews.)
Apparently there is some issue between the two servers, as I've
heard complaints in the netscape6 group about posts missing from
the Secnews.netscape.com server.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
.
It is MS Explorer that defines the standards used, not the
w3c. The w3c means nothing.
It's a shame that most of the rest of the world disagrees.
ATT no longer supports FrontPage extensions, opting instead for
w3c compliance.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
, and i still have not
found when, where, how and why the standard was born.
Look at the creation date of the Consortium.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
All men are created unequal.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Christopher Jahn typed:
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Jonas Jørgensen typed:
blackbox wrote:
¿What make them qualify to be categorized and be named
'standards'?
If they are accepted by a recognized, trustworthy
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Christopher Jahn typed:
And it came to pass that blackbox wrote:
Jonas Jørgensen wrote
If they are accepted by a recognized, trustworthy,
independent, standard-defining organization. For
instance:
Internet Engineering Task Force Request
.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Flyman? Conman more like it. Clive Mitchell
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
.
The others are loud, but stupid.
And Lancer's off his meds, which makes him just a waste of
bandwidth.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Flyman? Conman more like it. Clive Mitchell
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
, and Win98 was
born.
With each release, MS replaced more and more of the Operating
System with a Web Browser, and suddenly all the smart
programmers were getting rich selling anti-virus and system
security software.
And that's why Bundy drools a lot.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
,
sculture, building... etc. even if you didnt realize that
you were doing it when you were drawing or etc...
¿How many years is going to live HTML or CSS...?
666 years, of course. Unless you forget to wear your tinfoil
hat shiny side out.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
of a
drooling idiot you are. Nothing personal.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
For such a cute kid, you sure turned out ugly.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
, post the URL of the form in
question.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Nemo me impune lacessit.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
; sometimes it will be Mozilla, and sometimes it will be
problems with the server or the code on the page. Without an
URL to go check out it is impossible to see which is the case in
any specific complaint.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
We'll run no program before
And it came to pass that Markus Hossner wrote:
Hi,
is their a chance to kill spam-emails directly on the
server, with out downloading them first.
Sure there's a chance, but not with Mozilla at present.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
We'll run
to the bug report, it's ABOVE the message.
That's definitely a problem.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Yield to temptation; it may not pass your way again.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Martin Treu wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Ben Bucksch wrote:
Which strange location exactly is it placed in?
According to the bug report, it's ABOVE the message.
That's definitely a problem.
How do you create a sig file like
,
Mozilla will then use the system default programs for Mail and
NEws.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
The backbone of this country is the independent trucks.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Brian Heinrich wrote:
Martin Treu wrote:
How do you create a sig file like that?
Christopher Jahn wrote:
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Yield to temptation; it may not pass your way again.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
Hmm
, it will open the URL.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Moderation is for monks. (Robert Anson Heinlein)
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
some useless
feature and uncheck it.
Well why not make it greyed out like talkback and so on?
Because it is optional under custom install. Why have a
custom install if you can't customize?
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Moderation is for monks
And it came to pass that isu0 wrote:
Is it possible to make Mozilla 0.99 to look like Netscape
4.75? I think it is called Motif Look Feel.
The closest you'll get is to use the Classic theme.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
We don't morally censure you. We
And it came to pass that Peter Lairo wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
by access I mean it is installed on my system and can
access my registry and addressbooks, basically anything on
my PC. :(
How can it do this? Please reference the code in question.
You mean your apps all don't make
files will not help you recover lost mail
folders.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Don't give me what I ask for; give me what I need.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
standards, which
Netscape6/Mozilla adheres to stringently.
Take your business to First Union. No problems there. And at
least they won't lie to you like SunTrust just did - you shuld
drop them for that alone.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Don't give me what I
at a website; a billing
record for the service is created. The only difference is that
this banner is the Search button in Netscape instead of a
banner on a webpage.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Before borrowing money from a friend, decide which you need
more
.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Before borrowing money from a friend, decide which you need
more.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Remember, we have to get the baby out of the oven today.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
information.
It's only dishonest if he knows it's wrong: YOU're being
fundamentally dishonest by failing to distinguish between
mistaken and dishonest.
Jay made a mistake; you on the other hand have displayed an
appalling lack of integrity.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
And it came to pass that Netscape Basher wrote:
Are you saying there is no such thing as spyware Jay?
I'm tired of you and your strawman arguments.
We all know you're an idiot with a 2x4 up your butt.
Now run home and let mommy change your diaper.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
on the same
physical server, are not similarly secured.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I've learned that 99% of the time when something isn't working
in your
house, one of your kids did it
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
are the Netscape6 peer support groups - while technical
data is not unwelcome, those groups are intended to provide
users with answers and information to help them to fully realize
their Netscape experience.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
If you can't convince them
Hey look!! Idiot boy is back!!
Bet he's using Outlook 8.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Know thyself? If I knew myself, I would run away. (Goethe)
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
That which does not kill me had better run pretty damn fast.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
Corp's MSFTO Outlook, Hypponen said
There is currently no patch available
But the article says:
Most major antivirus vendors' products can detect and block the
virus, Hypponen said
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
A thing is not necessarily true because a man
yet; see for yourself:
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Occam was never the target of a conspiracy.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
st-0.9.9
^
^
You got it from the WRONG DIRECTORY on the ftp server.
Releases are found here:
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/
And as you can see, 0.9.8 is the latest release in this
directory.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Occam was never th
[posted and mailed]
And it came to pass that Bundy wrote:
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/nightly/latest-0.9.9
Not even Garica knew about this, which shocks me.
Hey, Einstein, that's the NIGHTLY directory, not the RELEASE
directory.
Peabrain.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
the issue
by using different OS's
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I hear music!
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
of poor netiquette, your sig dash is missing - you
should have a -- above your sig I had to manually trim your
sig in the reply Time consuming
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I hear music!
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
retreive mail from yahoo...
I can retrieve mail from yahoo but I cannot use yahoo's SMTP
server to send mail.
This may be an issue with your ISP - many now reserve port 25,
forcing you to use your ISP's SMPT server.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
And it came to pass that Will Dormann wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
When I try to go to another page by opening a bookmark,
Mozilla freezes up.
0.9.8 2002020406 on Win98SE, Duron 800, 128M ram, cable
modem
http://www.generalcadd.com/screen-shots.htm
Try upgrading your Java
)
OS: Windows NT4 SP 6a with Internet Exploder 5.5
Is this a known problem?
Change your video settings, and try updating your driver.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
The more people I meet, the more I love my battleaxe.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
When I try to go to another page by opening a bookmark, Mozilla
freezes up.
0.9.8 2002020406 on Win98SE, Duron 800, 128M ram, cable modem
http://www.generalcadd.com/screen-shots.htm
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
If you're so special, why aren't you dead
And it came to pass that Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Travis Crump wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
up too much bandwidth, and few programs support .PNG.
Isn't that sort of a mute point if you are planing to
post
, my current newsreader (a release a
month old) is perfectly adequate.
But for Bugzilla, fine.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Mommy's all right, Daddy's all right, they just seem a little
weird
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Stewart hector wrote:
And it became to pass that on the Friday 15 Feb 2002 1:36
am, Christopher Jahn did write as thus:
And it came to pass that Stewart hector wrote:
Hi
I'm using Mozilla (.98) under Linux. How can I make it so
when I click on an email link
the emailer in Mozilla.
So don't install it. Do a custom install, and don't install
mail/news. Moz then uses your system defaults.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Mommy's all right, Daddy's all right, they just seem a little
weird
To reply
And it came to pass that Travis Crump wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
up too much bandwidth, and few programs support .PNG.
Isn't that sort of a mute point if you are planing to post
the screen shot to bugzilla where your target audience would
be using mozilla...
The word is moot
] to the new profile.
How can I do this?
Moz has importing for IE, etc. but not its own profiles.
Thanks.
Close Moz, and open Windows Explorer. Copy the appropriate
server folder from one profile's MAIL folder to the other.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
-start Netscape, you should see any messages
left in the inbox, or have an accurate count.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
All distinctions are mind, by mind, in mind, of mind. No
distinctions no mind to distinguish.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that victor levadi wrote:
I have a very large mail file in 4.7,
Netscape Communicator is off topic here.
SEE:
http://ufaq.org
snews://secnews.netscape.com/netscape.communicator
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Boxing is a lot like ballet
, and no
cowboy.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Well, Katrina likes it.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
to enhance content, it
only clogs up the system from topto bottom so you can clutter up
the message with stationary, poorly contrasting
print/background, and often unreadable fonts.
And on top of that, it is a potential security hazard.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Well, Katrina likes it.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
not seem to make any difference.
Can someone on this newsgroup tell me what I am doing wrong
please?
Vic Joseph
try UNselecting remember password. Completely shut down N6.
Restart, and re-select remember password.
This usually fixes it.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
Win98)
Uninstalling Moz and reinstalling N6.2.1 should be enough.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and
stupidity.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
. But I said the same about the
entire Netscape 6 release, and nobody listened then, either.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and
stupidity.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
can ask him there.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Happiness is mandatory. Are you happy?
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that Christian Biesinger wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Scott I. Remick wrote:
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
As far as I know, the calendar component was donated to
mozilla.org a month or two ago.
Calendar
And it came to pass that Christian Biesinger wrote:
ZZT wrote:
are there some news about this bug?
What exactly is your problem?
Flash works fine for me.
Works fine here, also.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Percepi et esse.
To reply
And it came to pass that dman84 wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Peter Lairo wrote:
Bill Lee wrote:
This is an instance where the analytical mind of the
programmers took precedent over the users.
No, once we have titletips, te value of using this
abbreviated
://www.oeone.com/
Only for Linux.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Being a doormat gets you walked on.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
install new version of Mozilla.
Thanks a lot.
It exists:
http://internettrash.com/users/zakharin/
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Being a doormat gets you walked on.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
for help.
Then the problem is with the applets, not Sun's JVM.
This is like complaining that Mercedes parts don't fit in your
Ford engine.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Rose tint my world and keep me safe from the trouble and pain...
To reply
. Mozilla must be completely closed when you do this.
Be sure the files are not read-only after you've copies them.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Rose tint my world and keep me safe from the trouble and pain...
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
, but the procedure is
identical for mozilla.
Poke around here:
http://ufaq.org
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as long
as a week sometimes to make it up.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that gavin long wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
Every page that has failed to render properly in those
posts was created in FrontPage, without exception.
Um, no?
Um, yes.
Microsoft has a monopoloy in several areas, but bad
HTML isn't one of them
And it came to pass that gavin long wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
MS doesn't SELL their browser, they don't actually make
a DIME off of it. The ONLY reason that IE has market
dominance is because MicroSoft illegally used its monopoly
power.
nitpick
replace The ONLY reason
And it came to pass that Matthew Thomas wrote:
Mama Cass wrote:
In netscape.public.mozilla.general the people heard
Christopher Jahn say these wise words:
But as usual, MS added features and convinced users to
become reliant on them rather than deal with the issues
that users
And it came to pass that Matthew Thomas wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that Matthew Thomas wrote: ...
`Proprietary formats' aren't inherently evil. Where
Microsoft's customers are asking for something that's not
currently covered by a standard, they have no choice
.
The product is not mentioned.
Maybe someday you'll actually display some sign of intelligence,
but in the meantime, back in the killfile you go!
PLONK!
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
Do not drink coffee in the morning or it will keep you awake
until noon.
To reply
compatibility.
This in no way mitigates the illegal and immoral acts commited
by MS.
--
}:-) Christopher Jahn
{:-( Dionysian Reveler
You can never trust a woman; she may be true to you.
To reply: xjahnATyahooDOTcom
And it came to pass that JTK wrote:
Christopher Jahn wrote:
And it came to pass that JTK wrote:
[snip]
Two things:
1. Regardless of what people are telling you, it's not a
standards battle. Mozilla is so poorly written that it
simply dies on most pages regardless
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