Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Greg Wooledge wrote: Most of you probably know this, but for those who don't: BI = 2== Billion:10^12 (10^6*2) TRI = 3 == Trillion: 10^18 (10^6*3) In the US, MONO = 1 == Million = 10^6 (10^3 * 10^(3*1)) BI = 2 == Billion = 10^9 (10^3 * 10^(3*2)) TRI = 3 == Trillion= 10^12 (10^3 * 10^(3*3)) QUAD = 4 == Quadrillion = 10^15 (10^3 * 10^(3*4)) And as I said :) We use this system in the UK... unofficially. Cheers. Mark Powell - UNIX System Administrator - The University of Salford Academic Information Services, Clifford Whitworth Building, Salford University, Manchester, M5 4WT, UK. Tel: +44 161 295 5936 Fax: +44 161 295 5888 www.pgp.com for PGP key -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Arne Zellentin wrote: I think it's not the estimated time of arrival, but the remaining time until arrival. RTUA? Actually I think it's Estimated time _to_ arrival. Ofs and tos are quite often left out of acronyms. I'm not sure but I think I've also seen ETA with the "of" meaning like in ETA 23:13. Yep, it means both. However, any English speaker would understand "Estimated time to arrival is 3 mins and 20 secs.", even though it's not completely grammatically correct :) Only via the context can you work out which. Much like the complete lack of accents in English: I read the book. I have read the book. Completely different pronunciation of "read"; "reed" 1st, "red" 2nd; but same spelling :( Cheers. Mark Powell - UNIX System Administrator - The University of Salford Academic Information Services, Clifford Whitworth Building, Salford University, Manchester, M5 4WT, UK. Tel: +44 161 295 5936 Fax: +44 161 295 5888 www.pgp.com for PGP key -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
Francois du Toit ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Most of you probably know this, but for those who don't: BI = 2== Billion:10^12 (10^6*2) TRI = 3 == Trillion: 10^18 (10^6*3) In the US, MONO = 1 == Million = 10^6 (10^3 * 10^(3*1)) BI = 2 == Billion = 10^9 (10^3 * 10^(3*2)) TRI = 3 == Trillion= 10^12 (10^3 * 10^(3*3)) QUAD = 4 == Quadrillion = 10^15 (10^3 * 10^(3*4)) etc. -- Greg Wooledge| "Truth belongs to everybody." [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Red Hot Chili Peppers http://www.kellnet.com/wooledge/ | PGP signature
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
There are two possiblities for display update frequency: 1st) #define I_HAVE_NEVER_SEEN_LAME_ON_A_486_100_OR_A_ATHLON_1000 and display updates every 50 frames (MPEG-1) or 100 frames (MPEG-2) (Why this differences?) This difference is probably because in mpeg-1 there are 2 granules in a frame and in mpeg-2 there is only one. This also prevents lame from update frequencies in the range of 50...60 Hz (resulting in additional hum!) on Athlon 1000 systems coding mono, low quality MPEG-2 files. Sounds worse. Are you saying (I hope say is correct) that on fast systems, Lame display changes the result of the mp3? If this is the case, I think that we MUST find why. Otherwise note, that the old behave updates display every 4.5 minutes (386/40 with Cyrix copro, 8 years old) or 8.5 hours (386SX/16 without copro, 10 years old). off topic: is there anyone on this planet encoding mp3 with a 386? The slowest thing I personnaly used for mp3 encoding was dx4-100, and it was really awfull. Another question: What is ETA? A basque terror organization? I don't found it in any printed dictionary, also not in the big webster I bought in England. But you find nearly all C keywords in it ;-) There are 2 indications of the remaining time in Lame: one for the remaining time for the Lame process, and the other for the overall system remaining time. Tthey could be different if you're using a lot of simultaneous tasks on your computer. But I don't remember which one is which one, and I'm not sure if it works on every OS. Regards, -- Gabriel Bouvigne - France [EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 12138873 MP3' Tech: www.mp3-tech.org -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
Jaroslav Lukesh wrote: | Another question: | What is ETA? A basque terror organization? I don't found it in any printed | dictionary, also not in the big webster I bought in England. But you find | nearly all C keywords in it ;-) | | | eta: the 7th letter of the Greek alphabet -- H or n | ' | Eta: basque terror organization in spain E-stimated T-ime A-bout it mean which time you should will go away from computer, but not so exactly, only estimated. I also recall Elapsed Time Available. Dunno what exatly it means... IMHO ETA in general means how much you have to wait until something happens. | The other one is translating american billions (10^9) and trillions | (10^12) to Billionen (10^12) and Trillionen (10^18). You got fantastic | gross national product for the U.S.A. with values in the range of 10^10 | US $ per citicen. Not only in germany, but in Czech too :) But it's the americans fault ! :-) For using those non-standard units ! David Balazic -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
Frank Klemm wrote: On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 12:25:46PM +0200, Gabriel Bouvigne wrote: FhG forces 48 kHz on 320 kbps. Maybe to bring the bits/granule ratio to the right place. But in VBR mixed sampling rates are fordidden. Also in CBR. I recall seeing a test bitstream with changing sample-rate. But I could be wrong. David Balazic -- "Be excellent to each other." - Bill Ted -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
Frank, your are missing a third option: PROJECT_MAINTAINER_DOES_NOT_CARE_AND DOES_NOT_WANT_THIS_CODE_IN_LAME The display is updated every 50 frames. It is simple and works well enough. I want this type of code kept to an absolute minimum since this kind of stuff really belongs in the front end. Most GUIs which use LAME already do their own status display. I dont want to see even more timing code in lame.c. Mark X-Authentication-Warning: geek.rcc.se: majordom set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Received: (from pfk@localhost) by fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id UAA04980 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:14:41 +0200 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:14:41 +0200 From: Frank Klemm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are two possiblities for display update frequency: 1st) #define I_HAVE_NEVER_SEEN_LAME_ON_A_486_100_OR_A_ATHLON_1000 and display updates every 50 frames (MPEG-1) or 100 frames (MPEG-2) (Why this differences?) 2nd) Do not define I_HAVE_NEVER_SEEN_LAME_ON_A_486_100_OR_A_ATHLON_1000 You can also define MY_PREFERED_UPDATE_STEP by values like 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 (default is 1). Update interval is 2 seconds (if not modified by -disptime xxx) time + needed for display (so no lockup is possible), additional frame number steps can be rounded to multiples of MY_PREFERED_UPDATE_STEP. But the display will not more often than every 2 seconds updated (if not modified by -disptime xxx). The standard value of 2 seconds is also debatable. It's a float, so personal preferences can be satisfied very accurately ;-) This also prevents lame from update frequencies in the range of 50...60 Hz (resulting in additional hum!) on Athlon 1000 systems coding mono, low quality MPEG-2 files. Sounds worse. -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
:: :: Frank, your are missing a third option: :: :: PROJECT_MAINTAINER_DOES_NOT_CARE_AND DOES_NOT_WANT_THIS_CODE_IN_LAME :: :: The display is updated every 50 frames. It is simple :: and works well enough. :: :: I want this type of code kept to an absolute minimum since this kind :: of stuff really belongs in the front end. Most GUIs which use LAME :: already do their own status display. I dont want to see even more :: timing code in lame.c. :: Then move it to a separate function and a separate file. Then you don't pollute the coder functionality with things like that. An functions become shorter. Programmers may like large functions, at least maintainers not. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Frank Klemm eMail | [EMAIL PROTECTED] home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone | +49 (3641) 64-2721home: +49 (3641) 390545 sMail | R.-Breitscheid-Str. 43, 07747 Jena, Germany -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
:: :: This also prevents lame from update frequencies in the range of :: 50...60 Hz :: (resulting in additional hum!) on Athlon 1000 systems coding mono, :: low :: quality MPEG-2 files. Sounds worse. :: :: Are you saying (I hope say is correct) that on fast systems, Lame display :: changes the result of the mp3? If this is the case, I think that we MUST :: find why. :: Not the result of the MP3, but when listening to FM radio you can hear what the computer makes. Especially on non closed computers. Especially the video card seems to generate lots of noise when blittering images. :: Otherwise note, that the old behave updates display every 4.5 minutes :: (386/40 with Cyrix copro, 8 years old) or 8.5 hours (386SX/16 without :: copro, 10 years old). :: :: off topic: is there anyone on this planet encoding mp3 with a 386? The :: slowest thing I personnaly used for mp3 encoding was dx4-100, and it was :: really awfull. :: Yes, me. I measured the time to generate one frame. These are two slow firewall computers. The 386SX/16 has 8 MB of RAM, the 386DX/40 16 MB. Lame works on it. :: Another question: :: What is ETA? A basque terror organization? I don't found it in any printed :: dictionary, also not in the big webster I bought in England. But you find :: nearly all C keywords in it ;-) :: :: There are 2 indications of the remaining time in Lame: one for the remaining :: time for the Lame process, and the other for the overall system remaining :: time. Tthey could be different if you're using a lot of simultaneous tasks :: on your computer. But I don't remember which one is which one, and I'm not :: sure if it works on every OS. :: The CPU time display shows it in CPU time, i.e. in real CPU clocks. The REAL time display shows the REAL world time which normal humans really interest. The last is the remaining real world time until the program is finished. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Frank Klemm eMail | [EMAIL PROTECTED] home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone | +49 (3641) 64-2721home: +49 (3641) 390545 sMail | R.-Breitscheid-Str. 43, 07747 Jena, Germany -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re:[MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
The 4 examples I brought were POSSIBLE information you have after coding a PCM file. These are possible scenarios after you have coding files. You've tried to do your very best and you see after coding it wasn't. Real world examples and exercises: After coding with -V0 you got: --snip-- Calculate the file increase for the options '-b160', '-b192' and '-b192 -F'. Is this tolerable? What to you expect about coding quality? --snip-- Calculate the file increase for the options '-b112', '-b128' and '-b128 -F'. Is this tolerable? What to you expect about coding quality? In both cases I think ( I didn't really calculate) the size increase should be something aroud 5%. Yes, it's tolerable, but I personnaly don't think that this would increase the overall quality by 5%, So I personnaly don't use any minimum bitrate (but for classical music I use --noath). But I don't get your point about what you're trying to explain with those examples. FhG forces 48 kHz on 320 kbps. Maybe to bring the bits/granule ratio to the right place. But in VBR mixed sampling rates are fordidden. Also I extended the brhist function to display percentages between 0.05 and 1 more accurate. a good thing. Regards, -- Gabriel Bouvigne - France [EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 12138873 MP3' Tech: www.mp3-tech.org -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
There are two possiblities for display update frequency: 1st) #define I_HAVE_NEVER_SEEN_LAME_ON_A_486_100_OR_A_ATHLON_1000 and display updates every 50 frames (MPEG-1) or 100 frames (MPEG-2) (Why this differences?) 2nd) Do not define I_HAVE_NEVER_SEEN_LAME_ON_A_486_100_OR_A_ATHLON_1000 You can also define MY_PREFERED_UPDATE_STEP by values like 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 (default is 1). Update interval is 2 seconds (if not modified by -disptime xxx) time + needed for display (so no lockup is possible), additional frame number steps can be rounded to multiples of MY_PREFERED_UPDATE_STEP. But the display will not more often than every 2 seconds updated (if not modified by -disptime xxx). The standard value of 2 seconds is also debatable. It's a float, so personal preferences can be satisfied very accurately ;-) This also prevents lame from update frequencies in the range of 50...60 Hz (resulting in additional hum!) on Athlon 1000 systems coding mono, low quality MPEG-2 files. Sounds worse. Another remark. Display update after *every* frame reduces Lame speed by 0.8% for HQ settings (-q1 --studio -mj -v), by 4% for lowest quality (-q9 --phone -mm -v) (K6-300). So I see no problem in performance drops also on the slowest system (on a 386 the display is updated after every frame with HQ settings resulting in an additional speed impact). Otherwise note, that the old behave updates display every 4.5 minutes (386/40 with Cyrix copro, 8 years old) or 8.5 hours (386SX/16 without copro, 10 years old). Another question: What is ETA? A basque terror organization? I don't found it in any printed dictionary, also not in the big webster I bought in England. But you find nearly all C keywords in it ;-) eta: the 7th letter of the Greek alphabet -- H or n ' Eta: basque terror organization in spain Is this the so notorious tech speak of computer infected with sillycon (SP?) brains? BTW: Silicon is one of the most enjoyable words when english reports are translated to german by incompetent translators. They tranlate silicon to the german word Silikon (in german the letter 'c' is mostly replaced by 'k'). But Silikon has the meaning of silicone which let people smile due to its usage in plastic surgery. The other one is translating american billions (10^9) and trillions (10^12) to Billionen (10^12) and Trillionen (10^18). You got fantastic gross national product for the U.S.A. with values in the range of 10^10 US $ per citicen. But this is fully off-topic. -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 12:25:46PM +0200, Gabriel Bouvigne wrote: In both cases I think ( I didn't really calculate) the size increase should be something around 5%. Wrong. For the slight increase ca. 0.1%, for the more harder ca. 1%. Yes, it's tolerable, but I personnaly don't think that this would increase the overall quality by 5%, So I personnaly don't use any minimum bitrate. There is something wrong in the low level range. I have two tools: mp3_loud: You can increase the loudness of a MP3 by multiples of 1.5 dB resample: You can generate HQ low level WAV files (side effect). Example: $ resample input.wav 44100.0 input-60dB.wav 0.001 $ lame input-60dB.wav output-60dB.mp3 $ mp3_loud 32 output-60dB.mp3 output-60dB+48dB.mp3 Listen to output-60dB+48dB.mp3 CBR are okay, VBR not. Both programs (pre alpha hacks) are 23 Kbyte large. (but for classical music I use --noath). But I don't get your point about what you're trying to explain with those examples. That I haven't tested. What makes this options? Aha! Another test suite. I need a computer farm for all test suites. And a bundle of children for the hearing tests ;-) Should we enable --noath for -V1 and -V0 on standard ? FhG forces 48 kHz on 320 kbps. Maybe to bring the bits/granule ratio to the right place. But in VBR mixed sampling rates are fordidden. Also in CBR. But FhG don't mixes sampling rates, but it forces 48 kHz on 320 kbps. I don't understand this until the word 4096 bit/granule feld. $ mp3encdemo31 -v -qual 9 -br 256000 -if Maire.wav -of Maire_FhG_256.mp3 * MPEG Layer-3 Encoder V3.1 Demo (build Sep 23 1998) * (C) 1998 by Fraunhofer IIS-A This program is protected by copyright law and international treaties. Any reproduction or distribution of this program, or any portion of it, may result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under law. For further info, please visit http://www.iis.fhg.de/audio/ this program is limited to encoding 30 seconds of audio data. in: 44100 Hz, 2 channel(s), 16 bit/sample out: 44100 Hz, 2 channel(s), 256000 bit/s full huffman search ON 88.1 seconds running time encoding finished. $ mp3encdemo31 -v -qual 9 -br 32 -if Maire.wav -of Maire_FhG_320.mp3 * MPEG Layer-3 Encoder V3.1 Demo (build Sep 23 1998) * (C) 1998 by Fraunhofer IIS-A This program is protected by copyright law and international treaties. Any reproduction or distribution of this program, or any portion of it, may result in severe civil and criminal penalties, and will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible under law. For further info, please visit http://www.iis.fhg.de/audio/ this program is limited to encoding 30 seconds of audio data. in: 44100 Hz, 2 channel(s), 16 bit/sample out: 48000 Hz, 2 channel(s), 32 bit/s full huffman search ON 73.8 seconds running time encoding finished. $ _ This feature is enabled for -qual=7...9 and without any quality selector. -- Frank Klemm -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
ETA - Estimated time of arrival. kind of obscure :) mark stephens - Original Message - From: "Frank Klemm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching) Another question: What is ETA? A basque terror organization? I don't found it in any printed dictionary, also not in the big webster I bought in England. But you find nearly all C keywords in it ;-) -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
:: ETA - Estimated time of arrival. :: Why this time changes continuously? Is the estimation so bad? I think it's not the estimated time of arrival, but the remaining time until arrival. RTUA? -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Frank Klemm eMail | [EMAIL PROTECTED] home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone | +49 (3641) 64-2721home: +49 (3641) 390545 sMail | R.-Breitscheid-Str. 43, 07747 Jena, Germany -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] min bitrate and bit reservoir (was: MS switching)
On Mit, 13 Sep 2000, you wrote: :: ETA - Estimated time of arrival. Why this time changes continuously? Is the estimation so bad? :-) I think it's not the estimated time of arrival, but the remaining time until arrival. RTUA? Actually I think it's Estimated time _to_ arrival. Ofs and tos are quite often left out of acronyms. I'm not sure but I think I've also seen ETA with the "of" meaning like in ETA 23:13. cu arne -- Arne Zellentin [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
