On Fri, Apr 01, 2005 at 01:58:07PM -0800, David Barak wrote:
--- Jay R. Ashworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, and I think the distinction is pertinent to this
discussion, if the car has no seatbelts, you can drive it just fine
-- as long as it came that way. You can't *sell* a car
VoIP is great. VoPI (Voice over Public Internet) is great when it works,
but I wouldn't bet my life or my business on it.
Who says that you have to disconnect your home phone
just because you use VoIP? In fact, one of the advantages
of DSL over cable, is that the phone line is still there.
My guess would be that PtP is a much bigger bandwidth hog than gaming,
especially for the people who have high upstream capacity (10meg+).
the seven biggest isps in japan recently cooperated on a really
good paper measuring a lot about broadband use in japan. it is
in
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 05:06:00PM -0800, Bill Nash wrote:
I find this to be entertaining, since as a VOIP consumer, I'm reimbursing
my ISP for the cost of the traffic as part of my monthly tithe. Why
exactly are networks taking this stance to QoS VOIP traffic, generated by
their
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
VoIP is great. VoPI (Voice over Public Internet) is great when
it works, but I wouldn't bet my life or my business on it.
Who says that you have to disconnect your home phone
just because you use VoIP? In fact, one of the advantages
of DSL over cable, is that
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
I understand the woes of mixing 911 and VoIP myself, although I'm not a
Vonage user. The VoIP phone on my desk connects 911 calls to the Vancouver,
BC, PSAP (since it's off a PBX at work), but I also know the direct-dial
number for the local Dallas, TX,
Frankly, I'm fine with 911 not working on VoIP lines; I have a cell phone
for that when needed. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I've ever
actually dialed 911 from a land line.
You're lying on the floor incapacitated and in agony, suffering from some
acute and life threatening medical
Frankly, I'm fine with 911 not working on VoIP lines; I have a cell phone
for that when needed. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I've ever
actually dialed 911 from a land line.
You're lying on the floor incapacitated and in agony, suffering from some
acute and life threatening
--On 01 April 2005 10:05 -0800 Alexander Kiwerski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And for the record, the GPS locators currently in cell phones tend *not*
to work indoors, so even if you are lucky enough to live in an area where
E911 is plugged into your cell phone carrier's locator service, you still
On Thu, Mar 31, 2005 at 04:56:27PM +1000, Jamie Norwood wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:49 -0800, Alexei Roudnev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Heard of a little thing called 'spam'?
So what? You can use your car as a weapon; should we prohibit you from car
driving?
No, but if your car
--- Jay R. Ashworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, and I think the distinction is pertinent
to this discussion,
if the car has no seatbelts, you can drive it just
fine -- as long as
it came that way. You can't *sell* a car without
seatbelts, anymore.
That may be the rule in Florida,
David,
While it's true that you must wear seatbelts in most states *IF THE CAR
HAS SEATBELTS WHEN MANUFACTURED*. As far as I know, no state requires the
installation of belts in a 1929 Ford Roadster or any other car that
predates the use of seat belts.
NOTE: This is NOT going to NANOG.
--
R.
Oops! Very sorry. (Man, this is embarrassing!)
--
R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer
Energy Sciences Network (ESnet)
Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab)
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +1 510 486-8634
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:09:08 -0800
Also, as a former medical professional who has some actual experience
with these scenarios, I'd like to point out that the percentage of times
that people are _NOT_ screwed, even if the location pops up and EMS gets
there as absolutely fast as possible is less than 1%.
That's right... If you are
Thus spake Adi Linden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Frankly, I'm fine with 911 not working on VoIP lines; I have a cell
phone
for that when needed. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I've ever
actually dialed 911 from a land line.
You're lying on the floor incapacitated and in agony, suffering
That may be the rule in Florida, but in DC, MD, and UT
(the states in which I've lived in the past 2
decades), you can be be ticketed if you are driving a
car and not wearing a seatbelt.
This is true in CA, too. However, the law in CA specifically provides
that if you are driving a car
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Owen DeLong
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 7:08 PM
To: David Barak; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Vonage Hits ISP Resistance
[ SNIP ]
Email. Why should
it apply to VOIP? Just because it's a voice
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:49 -0800, Alexei Roudnev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Heard of a little thing called 'spam'?
So what? You can use your car as a weapon; should we prohibit you from car
driving?
No, but if your car doesn't have seat belts, we
No, but if your car doesn't have seat belts, we don't let you drive
it. Basic SMTP lacks safety features that are needed, ergo,
retrictions were placed on it.
Basic SMTP is fine. You all use it today. I will use it
to send this message. SMTP is not better or worse than
the
Who said it was QoS?
- ferg
-- Bill Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why exactly are networks taking this stance to QoS
VOIP traffic, generated by their customers, into
uselessness?
--
Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
Engineering Architecture for the Internet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL
Bill,
I understand completely what you are saying, but QoS is
not ubiquitous in the end-to-end sense in the Internet.
And that is a problem.
Once _any_ traffic which you might deem quality leaves
your administrative control (e.g. the boundaries of your
network), you have no guarantee that the
On 3/30/2005 9:36 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get a bunch of yes answers. Why is one
right and the other wrong?
It's not SMTP or even
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Fergie (Paul Ferguson) wrote:
Who said it was QoS?
Blocking is QoS. ;)
- billn
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Brad Knowles wrote:
[Deleted]
What I really think we need here are some truth-in-advertising
laws which are applied to oversubscription rates. That'd solve the
problem really quick.
How about we regulat the Internet like the Electric Utility and charge per
On 3/31/2005 9:25 AM, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
On a different tact, where I -THINK- the market will eventually end up is
w/ different classes of BroadBand service, whereby QOS and priority will
be given to those that wish to pay for it. The $14.95 services will be a
best-effort, and the
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Fergie (Paul Ferguson) wrote:
[Deleted]
I agree with whomever said it earlier -- remember that the
global Internet is nothing more than a bunch of interconnected
private networks.
Yep.. And when you are dying of a heart attack in your house, and every
second counts,
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:25:56 -0500 (EST), Greg Boehnlein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
How about we regulat the Internet like the Electric Utility and charge per
byte transferred? :)
You know, that's already happening
Korea Telecom recently decided to scrap its flat rate high speed [1]
Nash; Fergie (Paul Ferguson); nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Vonage Hits ISP Resistance
On 3/31/2005 9:25 AM, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
On a different tact, where I -THINK- the market will eventually end up
is
w/ different classes of BroadBand service, whereby QOS and priority
will
be given
Once upon a time, Jamie Norwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:36:19 -0600, Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
Korea Telecom recently decided to scrap its flat rate high speed [1]
broadband offering and move to a traffic based charging plan - must be
because most korean broadband gets used for online gaming, which is as
high bandwidth use an app as you can
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
Korea Telecom recently decided to scrap its flat rate high speed [1]
broadband offering and move to a traffic based charging plan - must be
because most korean broadband gets used for online gaming, which is as
high bandwidth use an app as you
Nor would I, and thank you for making the distinction.
$.02,
- ferg
-- Greg Boehnlein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I agree with whomever said it earlier -- remember that the
global Internet is nothing more than a bunch of interconnected
private networks.
VoIP is great. VoPI (Voice over
Korea Telecom recently decided to scrap its flat rate high speed [1]
broadband offering and move to a traffic based charging plan - must be
because most korean broadband gets used for online gaming, which is as
high bandwidth use an app as you can get ... and they're hit by the same
Are you saying XO is giving your biz DSL higher QoS than consumer DSL?
Dunno what they're doing today, but when I had that package (several years
ago) there wasn't much need for QoS and as far as I know they didn't use
it. They might have, or they might be today, dunno.
On 31 mars 2005, at 10:36, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
VoIP is great. VoPI (Voice over Public Internet) is great when it
works,
but I wouldn't bet my life or my business on it.
I've been using voice over the public Internet for a long time, and the
only times it has been unavailable (at a time that I
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Randy Bush wrote:
Korea Telecom recently decided to scrap its flat rate high speed [1]
broadband offering and move to a traffic based charging plan - must be
because most korean broadband gets used for online gaming, which is as
high bandwidth use an app as you can
For what it's worth - I monitored my Vonage call today, which lasted 54
minutes:
Ethernet0/1
Input
Output
Protocol Packet Count Packet Count
Byte Count Byte Count
Bill Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I find this to be entertaining, since as a VOIP consumer, I'm reimbursing
my ISP for the cost of the traffic as part of my monthly tithe.
Not proportional to the potential cost of providing the service.
I have no idea what my cable company pays for their
I've been using voice over the public Internet for a long time, and the
only times it has been unavailable (at a time that I tried to use it,
and hence noticed) has been when my DSL has been down. When my DSL has
been down, by and large, my analogue Bell Canada line has also been
down.
Bill Nash wrote:
I find this to be entertaining, since as a VOIP consumer, I'm reimbursing
my ISP for the cost of the traffic as part of my monthly tithe.
Wow - your ISP charges 10% of your income for Internet service?
And I thought *my* T1 was expensive.
-matthew christopher
+God was
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Steve Sobol wrote:
I have no idea what my cable company pays for their bandwidth, but I am
certain it's more than the $40 per month I pay for my 3Mbps down/256 Mbps
up... and I am able to actually *get* 3Mbps on many occasions, and I average
between 1 and 2 (on HTTP/FTP
Completely agree with [1] ...deploying faster than.., and
[2] ...suggest we work on what it needs to be better
Additionally, it would be also be wonderful if the nasty
business of VoIP service providers playing both sides of
the current regulatory issues (or lack thereof, or both)
didn't
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Steve Sobol wrote:
Bill Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have no idea what my cable company pays for their bandwidth, but I am
certain it's more than the $40 per month I pay for my 3Mbps down/256 Mbps
up... and I am able to actually *get* 3Mbps on many occasions, and I average
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Steve Sobol wrote:
Bill Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I find this to be entertaining, since as a VOIP consumer, I'm reimbursing
my ISP for the cost of the traffic as part of my monthly tithe.
Not proportional to the potential cost of providing the service.
I have no idea what
the seven biggest isps in japan recently cooperated on a really
good paper measuring a lot about broadband use in japan. it is
in the most recent ccr, v35n1 jan 05. sorry, siteseer seems not
to have it yet.
http://www.iepg.org/march2005/kjc-iepg200503.pdf has some data,
Bill Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
regular basis, I imagine regulation will happen, especially if ISPs keep
trying to inhibit consumer choices.
There's a fine line between inhibiting consumer choices and ensuring that
you don't end up spending more money than you're collecting for the
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Steve Sobol wrote:
Bill Nash [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
regular basis, I imagine regulation will happen, especially if ISPs keep
trying to inhibit consumer choices.
There's a fine line between inhibiting consumer choices and ensuring that
you don't end up spending more money
Tiered service is fine, but, charge per octet transferred will not work for
me until I can have control over which octets are transferred. As long
as I can't block spammers and abusers from adding to my bill without
blocking services I want (email, web usage, the ability to host some
small
Heard of a little thing called a 'rhetorical question'?
Who decides that it is okay for ISPs to block SMTP and not okay for them
to block VoIP? If it is okay to block SMTP because people do bad
[snip]
Well... Here's how I define things:
1. Blocking ports is bad.
2. Certain
Intersting article on ISP issues regarding competitive
VoIP services:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=lightreadingdoc_id=71020
- ferg
--
Fergie, a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
Engineering Architecture for the Internet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Fergie (Paul Ferguson) wrote:
Intersting article on ISP issues regarding competitive
VoIP services:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=lightreadingdoc_id=71020
Hmm.. I was quoted in it.
--
Vice President of N2Net, a New Age Consulting Service, Inc.
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Adrian Chadd wrote:
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
That is fairly entertaining. Perhaps you could provide the financial
breakdown for ANY DSL business model that doesn't rely on
over-subscription?
Q. How many, full-on 6 Meg DSL subscribers can
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
Q. How many, full-on 6 Meg DSL subscribers can you put on a 45 meg ATM
connection without oversubscription? ;)
A. Depends on how many local services they're using. :)
Hehehe... full-on means full capacity. Could be one service, but 6
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
That is fairly entertaining. Perhaps you could provide the financial
breakdown for ANY DSL business model that doesn't rely on
over-subscription?
Q. How many, full-on 6 Meg DSL subscribers can you put on a 45 meg ATM
connection without
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get a bunch of yes answers. Why is one
right and the other wrong?
--
Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Systems and Network Administrator -
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:36:19 -0600, Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get a bunch of yes answers. Why is one
right and the other
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Jamie Norwood wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:36:19 -0600, Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get a bunch of yes answers.
--On Wednesday, March 30, 2005 21:36 -0600 Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get a bunch of yes answers. Why is one
right and the other
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:36:19 -0600, Chris Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Once upon a time, Eric A. Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Do you also block NNTP so that customers have to use your servers?
Change that to SMTP and you'll get a bunch of yes answers. Why is one
right and the
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:49 -0800, Alexei Roudnev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Heard of a little thing called 'spam'?
So what? You can use your car as a weapon; should we prohibit you from car
driving?
No, but if your car doesn't have seat belts, we don't let you drive
it. Basic SMTP lacks
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Jamie Norwood wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:33:49 -0800, Alexei Roudnev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Heard of a little thing called 'spam'?
So what? You can use your car as a weapon; should we prohibit you from car
driving?
No, but if your car doesn't have seat belts, we don't
On 3/30/2005 11:27 AM, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Fergie (Paul Ferguson) wrote:
Intersting article on ISP issues regarding competitive
VoIP services:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=lightreadingdoc_id=71020
Hmm.. I was quoted in it.
Oh good, maybe you can
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Eric A. Hall wrote:
| to bear the additional cost of my customers choosing to use a
| competitor's VOIP service over my own, says Greg Boehnlein, who
| operates Cleveland, Ohio-based ISP N2Net.
|
| Without control of the last mile, we're screwed, Boehnlein says,
| which is
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Eric A. Hall wrote:
On 3/30/2005 11:27 AM, Greg Boehnlein wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Fergie (Paul Ferguson) wrote:
Intersting article on ISP issues regarding competitive
VoIP services:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=lightreadingdoc_id=71020
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Bill Nash wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Eric A. Hall wrote:
| to bear the additional cost of my customers choosing to use a
| competitor's VOIP service over my own, says Greg Boehnlein, who
| operates Cleveland, Ohio-based ISP N2Net.
|
| Without control of the
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Brad Knowles wrote:
At 5:06 PM -0800 2005-03-30, Bill Nash wrote:
I find this to be entertaining, since as a VOIP consumer, I'm
reimbursing my ISP for the cost of the traffic as part of my monthly
tithe.
No, that's not true. Not if your ISP has oversold
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