[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

> On 1/19/2024 12:34 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Jan 2024, Hans Hagen wrote:
> > 
> >> Of course we'll never be as fast as (pure) plain tex (no layers added) or
> >> latex (which often is advocated as faster than context).
> > 
> > I was curious, so did a quick experiment: typeset \input knuth 500 times.
> > Here are the results:
> > 
> > pdflatex: 547 pages/sec
> > lualatex: 308 pages/sec
> 
> opentype or type 1 ?

type 1. I did not change anything in the defaults. I'll try to figure out how 
to load opentype fonts in latex, and test lualatex. 

> > MKIV: 130 pages/sec
> > LMTX: 147 pages/sec
> 
> that is weird as lmtx is always faster here (we loose some 15% on the backend
> compared to luatex, maybe even more, but we gain back quite a bit elsewhere
> for various reasons)

LMTX is faster for me as well.

> > Interestingly, pdflatex, lualatex, and MkIV all generated pdf with 1112
> > pages, while LMTX generated a pdf with 1250 pages. Both MkIV and LMTX take
> > the same time to run (8.5 sec) but LMTX generates more pages so it is
> > faster.
> 
> puzzling
> 
> > Of course, this is a meaningless experiment from a practical point of view
> > as a 1000 page document will be more complex than just text.
> % engine=pdftex  1.2
> % engine=luatmetatex 1.6
> % engine=luatex  1.8
> % engine=xetex   2.4
> 
> \starttext
> 
> \dorecurse{500} {
> \input knuth \par
> }
> 
> \stoptext
> 
> 125 pages, so how does your test file look

5000 recursions (not 500, sorry about that). 


\starttext

\dorecurse{5000}{\ReadFile{knuth}}

\stoptext

I'll send you the PDFs offlist. 

Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/19/2024 12:34 AM, Aditya Mahajan wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024, Hans Hagen wrote:


Of course we'll never be as fast as (pure) plain tex (no layers added) or
latex (which often is advocated as faster than context).


I was curious, so did a quick experiment: typeset \input knuth 500 times. Here 
are the results:

pdflatex: 547 pages/sec
lualatex: 308 pages/sec


opentype or type 1 ?


MKIV: 130 pages/sec
LMTX: 147 pages/sec


that is weird as lmtx is always faster here (we loose some 15% on the 
backend compared to luatex, maybe even more, but we gain back quite a 
bit elsewhere for various reasons)



Interestingly, pdflatex, lualatex, and MkIV all generated pdf with 1112 pages, 
while LMTX generated a pdf with 1250 pages. Both MkIV and LMTX take the same 
time to run (8.5 sec) but LMTX generates more pages so it is faster.


puzzling


Of course, this is a meaningless experiment from a practical point of view as a 
1000 page document will be more complex than just text.

% engine=pdftex  1.2
% engine=luatmetatex 1.6
% engine=luatex  1.8
% engine=xetex   2.4

\starttext

\dorecurse{500} {
\input knuth \par
}

\stoptext

125 pages, so how does your test file look

Hans

-
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   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Of course we'll never be as fast as (pure) plain tex (no layers added) or
> latex (which often is advocated as faster than context).

I was curious, so did a quick experiment: typeset \input knuth 500 times. Here 
are the results:

pdflatex: 547 pages/sec
lualatex: 308 pages/sec

MKIV: 130 pages/sec
LMTX: 147 pages/sec

Interestingly, pdflatex, lualatex, and MkIV all generated pdf with 1112 pages, 
while LMTX generated a pdf with 1250 pages. Both MkIV and LMTX take the same 
time to run (8.5 sec) but LMTX generates more pages so it is faster. 

Of course, this is a meaningless experiment from a practical point of view as a 
1000 page document will be more complex than just text.

Aditya
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Bruce Horrocks]

On 18 Jan 2024, at 18:56, Shiv Shankar Dayal  
wrote:
> 
> I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference is 
> too high.
> My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.


Option 1: Buy or borrow a faster computer. You'll get your desired speed-up far 
faster than waiting for Hans to make changes, even assuming there is something 
that can be changed. I'd recommend a Mac M3 :-)

Option 2: Split your book into a project with each chapter, or even part of a 
chapter as a separate component and compile only the chapter you are working 
on. Set up a nighttime (or lunchtime) run to regenerate the entire book while 
you're away from the computer and speed doesn't matter.

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Joseph Wright]

On 18/01/2024 20:55, Gavin via ntg-context wrote:

That’s fast enough for me.


That's surely the key statement - 'fast' here is a personal thing, and 
40 pages a second is fast enough for many people. It's certainly fast 
when you look at what LuaMetaTeX is doing, as Hans has said.


Joseph

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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Gavin via ntg-context]

Hi Shiv,

ConTeXt’s project structure has many benefits. One is speed. See 
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Project_structure.

My books and long papers are products, each containing many components 
(chapters or sections). When I’m working, I have both the product and a 
component open. I frequently typeset the component as I’m working. This is very 
quick. I only typeset the entire product if I intend print or send it, or when 
I need to check some product-wide element like references. Components can be 
nested, so take this approach to whatever extreme you desire.

You can also use buffers if there are specific parts of your book (like 
diagrams) that demand significant processing. Buffers can save the typeset 
version of the contents. These will only be typeset again if you change the 
buffer contents (or if you are typesetting with a different version of 
ConTeXt.) See https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/typesetbuffer

My biggest book is about 200 pages. It takes 4 minutes to fully typeset on an 
M1 Mac. (I saw this time after downloading a new ConTeXt version.) This is 
mostly due to the 100+ complex TikZ diagrams. However, all of those diagrams 
are buffered, and when I’m working I only typeset the component. A typical 
chapter typesets in 1.6 seconds if I haven’t changed the diagrams. (I just did 
one to check.) That’s fast enough for me.

Hope that helps,
Gavin


> On Jan 18, 2024, at 10:24 AM, Shiv Shankar Dayal 
>  wrote:
> 
> I can process TeXBook in almost an instant using PDFTeX which is about 450+ 
> pages but my math book takes around 30 seconds averaging ~40 pages/second.
> 
> Why LuaMetaTeX is so slow? How can I speed it up?
> -- 
> Respect,
> Shiv Shankar Dayal
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

Works here.

Best,

Denis

 

Von: Alain Delmotte  
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2024 20:04
An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
Betreff: [NTG-context] Re: upload

 

Hi,

When I go to https://www.pragma-ade.nl/ I get an 404 Not Found message, so I 
can't download the new upload !!

Any reason?

Alain

Le 18-01-24 à 00:13, Hans Hagen a écrit :

Hi, 

I uploaded a new version (there is some work in progress but it probably 
doesn't affect anyone). 

Hans 


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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands 
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Alain Delmotte]

Hi,

When I go to https://www.pragma-ade.nl/ I get an 404 Not 
Found message, so I can't download the new upload !!


Any reason?

Alain

Le 18-01-24 à 00:13, Hans Hagen a écrit :

Hi,

I uploaded a new version (there is some work in progress 
but it probably doesn't affect anyone).


Hans


- 

  Hans Hagen | 
PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The 
Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | 
www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/18/2024 7:56 PM, Shiv Shankar Dayal wrote:




In comparison to LaTeX with LuaHBTeX, ConTeXt with LuaMetaTeX is
lightning fast.

pdfTeX is 8bit, and Knuth’s plain TeX is very low level – for a fairer
comparison, try the TeXbook on LuaMetaTeX (I don’t know if “plain”
works
though).

I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference 
is too high.

My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.

You can run the texbook with \tracingall and see what actually happens.

The texbook uses plain tex (very lightweight) with a dedicated style 
(also lightweight). On the contrary context uses layers of abstraction, 
a more complex font, math, structure, page etc etc etc sytstem.


In fact, plain tex had to be as it is because otherwise it would take 
ages to process teh texbook. On a pc one could see the page numbers 
crawl so in the end wr're quite okay nowadays.


If you run context with \tracingall you'll see that more goes on.

For me 40 pps sounds not that bad. If you use only text you can get to 
500 pps but that's not realistic. Maybe your style is suboptimal.


Also, open type fonts, opentype math, unicode, color, etc etc comes at a 
price. And, compared to pdftex, in most cases luametatex is faster on 
documents of average complexity. If you also use xml and/or metapost you 
migh tbe dragged down to a few pages per second while lmtx doesn't 
suffer much.


Anyway, if you think it can be made faster you can always post code to 
this list that identifies bottlenecks.


Of course we'll never be as fast as (pure) plain tex (no layers added) 
or latex (which often is advocated as faster than context).


Hans


-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Mikael Sundqvist]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 7:58 PM Shiv Shankar Dayal
 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> In comparison to LaTeX with LuaHBTeX, ConTeXt with LuaMetaTeX is
>> lightning fast.
>>
>> pdfTeX is 8bit, and Knuth’s plain TeX is very low level – for a fairer
>> comparison, try the TeXbook on LuaMetaTeX (I don’t know if “plain” works
>> though).
>
>
> I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference is 
> too high.
> My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.
>

For what it is worth, I have a math book (lots of math and references
back and forth and some figures) and the 300 pages compiles in around
10s, so 30 pages/s. I don't have too much to compare with, and that is
a bit slower than your 40 pages/s (but 40*30 is 1200 and not 450), but
I consider that pretty fast.

One thing you can try is \enableexperiments[fonts.compact] (as it
sounds, it is still experimental).

Also, if you do not provide any example code, it will be difficult for
people to guess how _you_ can speed up your compilation (if at all).

/Mikael
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Shiv Shankar Dayal]

In comparison to LaTeX with LuaHBTeX, ConTeXt with LuaMetaTeX is
> lightning fast.
>
> pdfTeX is 8bit, and Knuth’s plain TeX is very low level – for a fairer
> comparison, try the TeXbook on LuaMetaTeX (I don’t know if “plain” works
> though).
>

I understand that why it is slow, but the problem is that the difference is
too high.
My book has lots of math, so perhaps that is the reason.

-- 
Respect,
Shiv Shankar Dayal
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 18.01.24 um 18:47 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:

On 1/18/24 18:24, Shiv Shankar Dayal wrote:

I can process TeXBook in almost an instant using PDFTeX which is about
450+ pages but my math book takes around 30 seconds averaging ~40
pages/second.


Hi Shiv Shankar Dayal,

I guess that “The TeXbook” (having been written by Knuth himself) may be
optimized for speed.

Your math book may use features (I’m guessing again) that require more
resources than the features used by “The TeXbook”.


Why LuaMetaTeX is so slow? How can I speed it up?


https://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/musings.pdf#page=96 might
explain why Lua(Meta)TeX is slower.

Other chapters in that document from Hans might give you some insight on
the reasons why LMTX has to pay a price for being more feature-rich. I
got such impression when I read it.

Just in case it might help,


In comparison to LaTeX with LuaHBTeX, ConTeXt with LuaMetaTeX is 
lightning fast.


pdfTeX is 8bit, and Knuth’s plain TeX is very low level – for a fairer 
comparison, try the TeXbook on LuaMetaTeX (I don’t know if “plain” works 
though).


Hraban
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[NTG-context] Re: Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/18/24 18:24, Shiv Shankar Dayal wrote:
> I can process TeXBook in almost an instant using PDFTeX which is about
> 450+ pages but my math book takes around 30 seconds averaging ~40
> pages/second.

Hi Shiv Shankar Dayal,

I guess that “The TeXbook” (having been written by Knuth himself) may be
optimized for speed.

Your math book may use features (I’m guessing again) that require more
resources than the features used by “The TeXbook”.

> Why LuaMetaTeX is so slow? How can I speed it up?

https://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/musings.pdf#page=96 might
explain why Lua(Meta)TeX is slower.

Other chapters in that document from Hans might give you some insight on
the reasons why LMTX has to pay a price for being more feature-rich. I
got such impression when I read it.

Just in case it might help,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] scaling tweaked fonts

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

Hi Hans,

I have the following sample which behaves differently after latest from
2023.09.26 18:19:

\definetweakedfont[wider][xscale=1075]
\starttext
\startTEXpage[align=center]
\contextversion\\
\wider \contextversion
\stopTEXpage
\stoptext

Up to that version, no scaling was 1000, after that one no scaling became 1.

This should be the reason behind my previous issue about too large sizes
in the first latest from 2024
(https://mailman.ntg.nl/archives/list/ntg-context@ntg.nl/thread/JVB7AWJE53NW4AAE3ODUQN6GB34IBO5X/).

I just want to confirm that this change was intended.

Many thanks for your help,

Pablo
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[NTG-context] Why LuaMetaTex is so slow?

[Shiv Shankar Dayal]

I can process TeXBook in almost an instant using PDFTeX which is about 450+
pages but my math book takes around 30 seconds averaging ~40 pages/second.

Why LuaMetaTeX is so slow? How can I speed it up?
-- 
Respect,
Shiv Shankar Dayal
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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/18/2024 3:27 PM, Otared Kavian wrote:

Dear Dalyoung, dear Mikael,

I installed anew the whole LMTX tree and now everything is working fine.
I don’t know whether this is related or not, somehow in my previous tree 
I had a directory (or folder in the MacOS language) named « texmf-osx-64 
» instead « texmf-osx-arm64 » and this apparently had consequences.


In any case everything works fine now.

Thanks to Hans, Mikael and all the people on this list!

concerning the prime, use

  $x\prime$ and not $x^\prime$ as you might want $x^2\prime$ some day

in the first case it's really a prime, in the second case a prime symbol 
in a superscript; in lmtx we have for each nucleus a presubscript, 
presuperscript, subscript, superscript and primescript (plus index ones)


Hans


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[NTG-context] Re: upload

[Otared Kavian]

Dear Dalyoung, dear Mikael,

I installed anew the whole LMTX tree and now everything is working fine. 
I don’t know whether this is related or not, somehow in my previous tree I had 
a directory (or folder in the MacOS language) named « texmf-osx-64 » instead « 
texmf-osx-arm64 » and this apparently had consequences.

In any case everything works fine now.

Thanks to Hans, Mikael and all the people on this list!

Best regards: Otared

> On 18 Jan 2024, at 08:17, Jeong Dal via ntg-context  
> wrote:
> 
> Dear Otared,
> 
> I installed upload version today.
> And, your example,
> 
> \starttext
> The derivative of $f$ is denoted $f'$ or $f^\prime$ or is it $f^'$\dots
> \stoptext
> 
> works well.
> 
> I think that you will have the same good result.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Dalyoung
> 
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e-mail: ota...@gmail.com
Phone: +33 6 88 26 70 95




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[NTG-context] Re: context version 20240118

[Thomas Meyer]

Am 18.01.24 um 13:51 schrieb luigi scarso:



On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 at 13:00, Thomas Meyer  
wrote:


What is going on?

Yesterday I got a perfect on-grid-written document!
But today, with the newest context-version (20240118) all changed
for the worse.

I may not get a reply to this e-mail either!


Am 17.01.24 um 20:57 schrieb Thomas Meyer:

Got it.


Was it with a huge attachment (> 100KB)?
In this case I could have rejected it .

--
luigi



No attachment, only three pages text.

I have had problems to get it fine onto grid. Yesterday all was nice, 
and I wanted to make it standard for my texts.

But now ...___
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[NTG-context] How to Create Asymmetrical Continuous Columns in ConTeXt?

[seyal . zavira]

Hi all,

I have a lengthy text that I wish to seamlessly incorporate using the 
\input{mytext} command in ConTeXt. 
Additionally, I aim to present it in asymmetrical continuous columns, where the 
text flows over several pages.

I have tried paragraphs and columns, but in paragraphs, I can't flow text 
across several pages without manually breaking it, and in columns, I haven't 
found a way to implement asymmetric columns.

How can I achieve this layout in ConTeXt? this is a MWE but it does not work 
properly:

\definecolumnset[mymixedcolumn][n=2]
\setupcolumnset[mymixedcolumn:1][width=4cm]
\setupcolumnset[mymixedcolumn:2][width=7cm]

\starttext
\startcolumnset[mymixedcolumn]
\dorecurse{5}{
\input{knuth}
}
\stopcolumnset
\stoptext

also is there a mechanism to automatically continue text between desired 
frames? For example, is there a way to write a function that, if the text 
reaches the end of the line and there is not enough space for another line in 
that frame, it continues the text in another frame that is already specified? 
in other word How do you make text flow to another part of a page?

Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
Seyal
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[NTG-context] Re: context version 20240118 (was: "Registerhaltigkeit")

[luigi scarso]

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 at 13:00, Thomas Meyer  wrote:

> What is going on?
>
> Yesterday I got a perfect on-grid-written document!
> But today, with the newest context-version (20240118) all changed for the
> worse.
>
> I may not get a reply to this e-mail either!
>
>
> Am 17.01.24 um 20:57 schrieb Thomas Meyer:
>
> Got it.
>
> Was it with a huge attachment (> 100KB)?
In this case I could have rejected it .

--
luigi
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[NTG-context] Re: [ \copypages ]

[Floris van Manen via ntg-context]

On 18/01/2024 12:10, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

yes but experimental and not yet documented


I don't mind experimenting with it.
e.g. I try to change the font color in existing pdf documents from black 
to blue.



At the moment my workaround is using mutool to export pages to svg.
mutool convert -o page.svg -F svg input.pdf

then change the font color
sed -i 's/https://mailman.ntg.nl/mailman3/lists/ntg-context.ntg.nl
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[NTG-context] Re: context version 20240118

[Thomas Meyer]

I may not understand it ...
Where can I find the thread (which keyword?)and which values are bad?

Greetings
Thomas

Am 18.01.24 um 13:06 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
as follow up on the keyword thread we decided to treat bad values to 
equivalent to 'no'
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[NTG-context] Re: Fwd: Re: x mark symbol and general symbol guide

[Gerion Entrup]

Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2024, 15:56:32 CET schrieb Gerion Entrup:
> Am Dienstag, 9. Januar 2024, 21:17:57 CET schrieb Hans Hagen:
> > On 1/9/2024 8:31 PM, Gerion Entrup wrote:
> > 
> > > My system awesome font is version 6 but isn't the one bundled with
> > > ConTeXt version 5 (FontAwesome.otf)? This one:
> > > tex/texmf/fonts/data/fonticons/fontawesome/FontAwesome.otf: OpenType font 
> > > data
> > > 
> > > I would assume that ConTeXt is using the bundled file by default.
> > It's not our hobby to keep up with font versions and changing names so 
> > we depend on users to signal that. Also, with fonts you never know what 
> > updated fonts will break.
> > 
> > In a next upload we'll define a list of names [5-9] so that we're more 
> > future proof.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sure, it was my interest to understand, if the error lays in my
> installation or is due to the predefined files. Especially, since I did
> not manage to display a single symbol of FontAwesome at all, not even
> the one that seems to be explicitly defined.
> 
> For me, it is not relevant at all, in which version the font is.
> My main interest is to get an \xmark symbol.

FontAwesome works with the new version 2024.01.18 (the times symbol is
not present but an xmark symbol directly). Thank you!

Gerion


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
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[NTG-context] Re: context version 20240118

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/18/2024 12:59 PM, Thomas Meyer wrote:

What is going on?

Yesterday I got a perfect on-grid-written document!
But today, with the newest context-version (20240118) all changed for 
the worse.


as follow up on the keyword thread we decided to treat bad values to 
equivalent to 'no'



I may not get a reply to this e-mail either!

?

Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] context version 20240118 (was: "Registerhaltigkeit")

[Thomas Meyer]

What is going on?

Yesterday I got a perfect on-grid-written document!
But today, with the newest context-version (20240118) all changed for 
the worse.


I may not get a reply to this e-mail either!


Am 17.01.24 um 20:57 schrieb Thomas Meyer:

Got it.

Am 14.01.24 um 17:36 schrieb Thomas Meyer:

Here comes my minimal example.
\vfill doesn't fit the grid, the counted blank works.

Is it possible to jump to grid with blank[?] ?

Am 14.01.24 um 13:53 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

Thomas Meyer schrieb am 14.01.2024 um 11:21:

Thank you Wolfgang and Hraban,
it can be so easy!

But if my last subject should be at the end of the page and I shift 
it with \vfill to the end, the last subject doesn't fit the grid!


Can you provide a minimal example where you show what you're trying 
to place at the bottom of the page.


Wolfgang




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[NTG-context] Re: [ \copypages ]

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/17/2024 10:20 PM, vm via ntg-context wrote:


Is there a (hidden) option that allows for changing the font color of 
external included pdfs

yes but experimental and not yet documented

Hans


-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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