Re: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Juan Salas]

Shai, thank you for the photos. Variations within this species really run
along a wide spectrum.
The breast of the bird on photo P1030904 is almost like a Nelson's
Sparrow's. And yet there is no structural visible differences between the
LI birds photographed. We can safely say that the Seaside Sparrow (complex)
is not a ring species.

Juan Salas,
Brooklyn, NY

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Shaibal Mitra 
wrote:

> Hi Juan and all,
>
> Check out these two photos of an exceptionally fresh and bright Seaside
> Sparrow from Moriches Inlet, Suffolk, LI, last Saturday. Our local seaside
> Sparrows vary a lot in terms of the degree of buffy color on the face and
> breast and in terms of the distinctness of their streaking, but this
> individual stood out. It strongly recalls the Gulf Coast subspecies
> fisheri, right down to the white dorsal markings, but I suspect it is just
> a variant of our local population. In terms of size, structure and other
> plumage features I don't see any reason to invoke hybridization.
>
> https://flic.kr/p/UBjdht
>
> Shai Mitra
> Bay Shore
>
>
> 
> From: bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-121479414-3714944@
> list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Juan Salas [juansalasprieto1...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 5:21 PM
> To: NYSBIRDS_L; ebirds NYC
> Subject: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow
> and Saltmarsh Sparrow.
>
> I apologize for the cross-posting.
> I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh
> Nature Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features
> that match Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize
> regularly.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/
> datetaken-public/
> What would be your opinion about this bird?
> Thank you,
> Juan Salas
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
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>
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Juan Salas]

Shai, thank you for the photos. Variations within this species really run
along a wide spectrum.
The breast of the bird on photo P1030904 is almost like a Nelson's
Sparrow's. And yet there is no structural visible differences between the
LI birds photographed. We can safely say that the Seaside Sparrow (complex)
is not a ring species.

Juan Salas,
Brooklyn, NY

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 5:30 PM, Shaibal Mitra 
wrote:

> Hi Juan and all,
>
> Check out these two photos of an exceptionally fresh and bright Seaside
> Sparrow from Moriches Inlet, Suffolk, LI, last Saturday. Our local seaside
> Sparrows vary a lot in terms of the degree of buffy color on the face and
> breast and in terms of the distinctness of their streaking, but this
> individual stood out. It strongly recalls the Gulf Coast subspecies
> fisheri, right down to the white dorsal markings, but I suspect it is just
> a variant of our local population. In terms of size, structure and other
> plumage features I don't see any reason to invoke hybridization.
>
> https://flic.kr/p/UBjdht
>
> Shai Mitra
> Bay Shore
>
>
> 
> From: bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-121479414-3714944@
> list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Juan Salas [juansalasprieto1...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 5:21 PM
> To: NYSBIRDS_L; ebirds NYC
> Subject: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow
> and Saltmarsh Sparrow.
>
> I apologize for the cross-posting.
> I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh
> Nature Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features
> that match Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize
> regularly.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/
> datetaken-public/
> What would be your opinion about this bird?
> Thank you,
> Juan Salas
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm>
> Archives:
> The Mail Archive cornell.edu/maillist.html>
> Surfbirds
> ABA
> Please submit your observations to eBird!
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> 3) http://birding.aba.org/maillist/NY01
>
> Please submit your observations to eBird:
> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/
>
> --
>
>

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RE: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Shaibal Mitra]

Hi Juan and all,

Check out these two photos of an exceptionally fresh and bright Seaside Sparrow 
from Moriches Inlet, Suffolk, LI, last Saturday. Our local seaside Sparrows 
vary a lot in terms of the degree of buffy color on the face and breast and in 
terms of the distinctness of their streaking, but this individual stood out. It 
strongly recalls the Gulf Coast subspecies fisheri, right down to the white 
dorsal markings, but I suspect it is just a variant of our local population. In 
terms of size, structure and other plumage features I don't see any reason to 
invoke hybridization.

https://flic.kr/p/UBjdht

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore



From: bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Juan Salas 
[juansalasprieto1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 5:21 PM
To: NYSBIRDS_L; ebirds NYC
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and 
Saltmarsh Sparrow.

I apologize for the cross-posting.
I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh Nature 
Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features that match 
Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize regularly.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/datetaken-public/
What would be your opinion about this bird?
Thank you,
Juan Salas
--
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Leave
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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RE: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Shaibal Mitra]

Hi Juan and all,

Check out these two photos of an exceptionally fresh and bright Seaside Sparrow 
from Moriches Inlet, Suffolk, LI, last Saturday. Our local seaside Sparrows 
vary a lot in terms of the degree of buffy color on the face and breast and in 
terms of the distinctness of their streaking, but this individual stood out. It 
strongly recalls the Gulf Coast subspecies fisheri, right down to the white 
dorsal markings, but I suspect it is just a variant of our local population. In 
terms of size, structure and other plumage features I don't see any reason to 
invoke hybridization.

https://flic.kr/p/UBjdht

Shai Mitra
Bay Shore



From: bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Juan Salas 
[juansalasprieto1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 5:21 PM
To: NYSBIRDS_L; ebirds NYC
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and 
Saltmarsh Sparrow.

I apologize for the cross-posting.
I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh Nature 
Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features that match 
Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize regularly.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/datetaken-public/
What would be your opinion about this bird?
Thank you,
Juan Salas
--
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Leave
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The Mail 
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Juan Salas]

Thank you for your fast reactions.
No need for consolation, Tom.
Angus, you're right, the light was less than perfect.
The bird is clearly a Seaside Sparrow, and I identified it as such,  but
the ochre on the side of the neck, behind the eye stripe, is a feature that
does not show on any representation of the bird I have had access to
(although similar to a juvenile's plumage), and the belly is light.

Beadle and Rising mention on page 171 of their Sparrows of the United
States and Canada from 2002 an individual collected in Connecticut in what
seems like an isolated event.

Eric Salzman writing about the Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow in Bull's
Birds of New York State, Levine (ed.) 1998, 519, reports that "Although it
has hybridized with the Seaside Sparrow, the frequency of hybridization is
considered to be low (Grenlaw and Rising, 1994), and there are not recent
records from NY. The two species commonly inhabit the same marshes on LI,
often nesting within a few meters of each other (pers. obs.)"
I do not believe it is a frequent event, but it does happen.
In any case I am eager to learn more about the latest information on the
subject, and I thought today's sighting was a great excuse.
Any further comment would be welcome.
Thank you.
Juan Salas
Brooklyn, NY

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Angus Wilson 
wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something but could you perhaps explain why you think
> this not a pure Seaside Sparrow?
>
> I am not noticing any inconsistencies, although to be fair it's difficult
> to evaluate a single photo of a partially obscured bird that's facing
> away
>
> As a side note, I am not aware of evidence for frequent hybridization
> between Seaside and Saltmarsh. However, there is extensive hybridization
> between Nelson's and Saltmarsh Sparrows in the 130 mile zone of overlap
> along the New England coastline from Plum Island in northern Massachusetts
> to southern Maine.
>
> Angus Wilson
> New York City, NY
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Juan Salas  > wrote:
>
>> I apologize for the cross-posting.
>> I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh
>> Nature Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features
>> that match Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize
>> regularly.
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/da
>> tetaken-public/
>> What would be your opinion about this bird?
>> Thank you,
>> Juan Salas
>> --
>> *NYSbirds-L List Info:*
>> Welcome and Basics 
>> Rules and Information 
>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>> 
>> *Archives:*
>> The Mail Archive
>> 
>> Surfbirds 
>> ABA 
>> *Please submit your observations to **eBird*
>> *!*
>> --
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Angus Wilson
> New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
> http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/
> --
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> Welcome and Basics 
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Juan Salas]

Thank you for your fast reactions.
No need for consolation, Tom.
Angus, you're right, the light was less than perfect.
The bird is clearly a Seaside Sparrow, and I identified it as such,  but
the ochre on the side of the neck, behind the eye stripe, is a feature that
does not show on any representation of the bird I have had access to
(although similar to a juvenile's plumage), and the belly is light.

Beadle and Rising mention on page 171 of their Sparrows of the United
States and Canada from 2002 an individual collected in Connecticut in what
seems like an isolated event.

Eric Salzman writing about the Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow in Bull's
Birds of New York State, Levine (ed.) 1998, 519, reports that "Although it
has hybridized with the Seaside Sparrow, the frequency of hybridization is
considered to be low (Grenlaw and Rising, 1994), and there are not recent
records from NY. The two species commonly inhabit the same marshes on LI,
often nesting within a few meters of each other (pers. obs.)"
I do not believe it is a frequent event, but it does happen.
In any case I am eager to learn more about the latest information on the
subject, and I thought today's sighting was a great excuse.
Any further comment would be welcome.
Thank you.
Juan Salas
Brooklyn, NY

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Angus Wilson 
wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something but could you perhaps explain why you think
> this not a pure Seaside Sparrow?
>
> I am not noticing any inconsistencies, although to be fair it's difficult
> to evaluate a single photo of a partially obscured bird that's facing
> away
>
> As a side note, I am not aware of evidence for frequent hybridization
> between Seaside and Saltmarsh. However, there is extensive hybridization
> between Nelson's and Saltmarsh Sparrows in the 130 mile zone of overlap
> along the New England coastline from Plum Island in northern Massachusetts
> to southern Maine.
>
> Angus Wilson
> New York City, NY
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Juan Salas  > wrote:
>
>> I apologize for the cross-posting.
>> I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh
>> Nature Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features
>> that match Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize
>> regularly.
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/da
>> tetaken-public/
>> What would be your opinion about this bird?
>> Thank you,
>> Juan Salas
>> --
>> *NYSbirds-L List Info:*
>> Welcome and Basics 
>> Rules and Information 
>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>> 
>> *Archives:*
>> The Mail Archive
>> 
>> Surfbirds 
>> ABA 
>> *Please submit your observations to **eBird*
>> *!*
>> --
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Angus Wilson
> New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
> http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/
> --
> *NYSbirds-L List Info:*
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> *!*
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>

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RE: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[James Coe]

I’m not seeing it, Juan.   Agree with Angus.

In your photo, the breast is over-exposed, making it appear much lighter than 
it might otherwise.  All other elements of the bird’s plumage seem consistent 
with a fresh spring Seaside Sparrow.  The beak size and shape is all Seaside, 
too. 

 

Jim

 

 

From: bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Juan Salas
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 5:21 PM
To: NYSBIRDS_L; ebirds NYC
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and 
Saltmarsh Sparrow.

 

I apologize for the cross-posting.

I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh Nature 
Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features that match 
Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize regularly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/datetaken-public/

What would be your opinion about this bird?

Thank you,

Juan Salas

--

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RE: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[James Coe]

I’m not seeing it, Juan.   Agree with Angus.

In your photo, the breast is over-exposed, making it appear much lighter than 
it might otherwise.  All other elements of the bird’s plumage seem consistent 
with a fresh spring Seaside Sparrow.  The beak size and shape is all Seaside, 
too. 

 

Jim

 

 

From: bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-121479414-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Juan Salas
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 5:21 PM
To: NYSBIRDS_L; ebirds NYC
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and 
Saltmarsh Sparrow.

 

I apologize for the cross-posting.

I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh Nature 
Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features that match 
Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize regularly.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/datetaken-public/

What would be your opinion about this bird?

Thank you,

Juan Salas

--

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  Welcome and Basics 

  Rules and Information 

  
Subscribe, Configuration and Leave

Archives:

  The Mail 
Archive

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Angus Wilson]

Maybe I'm missing something but could you perhaps explain why you think
this not a pure Seaside Sparrow?

I am not noticing any inconsistencies, although to be fair it's difficult
to evaluate a single photo of a partially obscured bird that's facing
away

As a side note, I am not aware of evidence for frequent hybridization
between Seaside and Saltmarsh. However, there is extensive hybridization
between Nelson's and Saltmarsh Sparrows in the 130 mile zone of overlap
along the New England coastline from Plum Island in northern Massachusetts
to southern Maine.

Angus Wilson
New York City, NY

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Juan Salas 
wrote:

> I apologize for the cross-posting.
> I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh
> Nature Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features
> that match Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize
> regularly.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/
> datetaken-public/
> What would be your opinion about this bird?
> Thank you,
> Juan Salas
> --
> *NYSbirds-L List Info:*
> Welcome and Basics 
> Rules and Information 
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> 
> *Archives:*
> The Mail Archive
> 
> Surfbirds 
> ABA 
> *Please submit your observations to **eBird*
> *!*
> --
>



-- 
Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/

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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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--

Re: [nysbirds-l] Question about hybridization between Seaside Sparrow and Saltmarsh Sparrow.

[Angus Wilson]

Maybe I'm missing something but could you perhaps explain why you think
this not a pure Seaside Sparrow?

I am not noticing any inconsistencies, although to be fair it's difficult
to evaluate a single photo of a partially obscured bird that's facing
away

As a side note, I am not aware of evidence for frequent hybridization
between Seaside and Saltmarsh. However, there is extensive hybridization
between Nelson's and Saltmarsh Sparrows in the 130 mile zone of overlap
along the New England coastline from Plum Island in northern Massachusetts
to southern Maine.

Angus Wilson
New York City, NY

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Juan Salas 
wrote:

> I apologize for the cross-posting.
> I have photographed a Seaside Sparrow this morning at the Salt Marsh
> Nature Center in Marine Park, Brooklyn that seems to have some features
> that match Saltmarsh Sparrow. I have read that these two species hybridize
> regularly.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/23604521@N00/34194070461/in/
> datetaken-public/
> What would be your opinion about this bird?
> Thank you,
> Juan Salas
> --
> *NYSbirds-L List Info:*
> Welcome and Basics 
> Rules and Information 
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> 
> *Archives:*
> The Mail Archive
> 
> Surfbirds 
> ABA 
> *Please submit your observations to **eBird*
> *!*
> --
>



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Angus Wilson
New York City & The Springs, NY, USA
http://birdingtotheend.blogspot.com/

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NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES.htm
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ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birding.aba.org/maillist/NY01

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

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