RE: [obc] Results-handicapping
I wish it worked out that way my friend! If it did, I'd be trying to break the 24 minute barrier instead of the 25 (not to mention buying the beer and pizza!). Sally :) -Original Message- From: Greg Crevier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 1:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [obc] Results-handicapping This morning while doing ABC 40 km time trial, I was thinking of the discussion regarding handicaps. It was when a Cervélo passed at a speed that made me feel that I was standing still that I thought of the following system. It is based on equipment and technology. If your bike/equipment is in the $1,000 to $2,000 range you are at par In the $2-3k range you get 20 seconds added to your time In the $3-4k range you get 40 seconds added to your time In the $4-5k range, you get 1 minute added to your time In the $5k plus, you buy the pizza and beer for everyone at Mug's after the TT. Greg -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [obc] results, handicapping?
Simpson, Bob wrote: Well, Celia, you're opening a can of worms here and the power to determine winners will lie in the hands of the handicap determiner. But then that's always been the case. Of course - and this is why handicap events are generally meant to be fun events done for honour and enthusiastic competition rather than for riches! :-) Some might argue that the time given for each year of age is too generous. I'd really like to know where those tables came from. I can see the gears of a mathematician turning in your head and I think that what you propose will be very difficult, but not impossible, to implement. You can make the handicaps any form that you like of course, but whether it will be fair is up to debate. Of course - Handicap events should be fun competitive events and fairness or at least reasonableness is what makes them fun and competitive. In the example you gave of the local Pro female and the local top man, a baseline can be determined perhaps by subtracting a percentage of the women's times, not subtracting the raw number. That would be 112.5% or if you take the world record for the hour, the woman comes in at 117.1% of the man. IF doing INDIVIDUAL handicapping in which gender was one of the factors used in the handicap, then yes, one would probably want to reduce the women's times by 12.5% (here) rather than by a constant 143 seconds for the gender handicapping component. I didn't do this since it could, even though it shouldn't, be viewed as applying a performance-based handicap (ie., slower women would get more of a handicap than faster women). So I applied the same (smaller) 143 second handicap to all women. Life is a compromise... But if we take it to a ridiculous extreme, what if we tried to adjust for all factors. If I show up with a sore toe that day, should I be given a further 2 second bonus or what if the TT is in the morning when I personally don't ride my best. Give me another 20 seconds there, perhaps. What about factoring in how many hours I have to work per week and how physically demanding that work is? An unfortunate result of this is that when a rider wins in the corrected results, there might be some consternation that the handicapper gave them too much of an edge. My feeling is that anyone who shows up at a handicap event wanting these kinds of benefits is taking the event a little too seriously and perhaps ought to just stay at work! Handicaps are rarely won by the fastest rider, if they're set up properly, and that is probably the reason for this kind of event - an attempt to reward the effort rather than the talent or natural ability. And yet the point is that such an event can actually motivate PB performances from any of the participants. In my opinion, that's the real beauty of handicap events. By giving all participants a fair chance for top spot, many will pull more out of their bodies to try to win. In a non-handicap event, the stronger riders don't have as much competition for the top spot, and the weaker riders have no chance of attaining it. In a (fair) handicap event, every participant is everyone else's competition for the top spot. I would support a more comprehensive handicap, but the complications of making it perfectly fair is what keeps it from happening, I think. We have lots of imaginative, intelligent, lively, competitive, reasonable people in the OBC. That's all we should need... We've already seen some good ideas. Celia -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [obc] results, handicapping?
Well, Celia, you're opening a can of worms here and the power to determine winners will lie in the hands of the handicap determiner. But then that's always been the case. Some might argue that the time given for each year of age is too generous. I can see the gears of a mathematician turning in your head and I think that what you propose will be very difficult, but not impossible, to implement. You can make the handicaps any form that you like of course, but whether it will be fair is up to debate. In the example you gave of the local Pro female and the local top man, a baseline can be determined perhaps by subtracting a percentage of the women's times, not subtracting the raw number. That would be 112.5% or if you take the world record for the hour, the woman comes in at 117.1% of the man. But if we take it to a ridiculous extreme, what if we tried to adjust for all factors. If I show up with a sore toe that day, should I be given a further 2 second bonus or what if the TT is in the morning when I personally don't ride my best. Give me another 20 seconds there, perhaps. What about factoring in how many hours I have to work per week and how physically demanding that work is? An unfortunate result of this is that when a rider wins in the corrected results, there might be some consternation that the handicapper gave them too much of an edge. Handicaps are rarely won by the fastest rider, if they're set up properly, and that is probably the reason for this kind of event - an attempt to reward the effort rather than the talent or natural ability. I would support a more comprehensive handicap, but the complications of making it perfectly fair is what keeps it from happening, I think. Bob Simpson -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [obc] Results-handicapping
I like the idea of always making an extra age/gender handicap page available for each TT - but I'd want the handicapping method to be better justified than what we currently have ( http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Racing/TimeTrials/Results/tt/2001/age-gender-hcap.txt ). I know of a British age-standards table (don't know what data it was based on) for men (I think it was for 25 mile TT's), but I haven't found any standards table for women. Has anyone else? So far as a separate handicap event, I definitely lean towards personal handicaps. We already award medals on the basis of performance for the CCA age/gender categories (and could still award the special age/gender handicap trophies on the basis of best time from the age/gender handicap pages constructed every week) , so why not do something else with a handicap event? I always felt that the idea of a handicap event was to try to place everyone on an equal playing field so that everyone has a good shot at the top/bottom or any other spot. The idea is that this provides more fun and more competition for all. This can push all - from fastest to slowest - to PB's. Celia -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[obc] results, handicapping?
Hi all: Well, I finally got my laptop hooked back up to my home network after arriving home - so the tt results from Aug 9 (found in my huge stash of snail mail), Aug 30 and Sep 6 are now posted and accessible from the obcweb. I actually put a few different displays of yesterdays results up there. Please comment and discuss. It's our club! Some Backgound on the handicapping disussions (or not...): Last year when the age-handicapping event was introduced, I immediately expressed my view to Avery that the method of handicapping would tend to move women downwards in the overall open rankings since it handicapped the men and women towards different means (Men at their prime are faster than women (of the same training/fitness level) at their prime)). Discussion was not possible. I expressed the view again this year to a few more of the powers that be and the reactions ranged from unpleasant to disinterest. I was basically told to not show the men's and women's rankings on the same page. (I had neither the time to break down the resistance nor the time (or desire) to comply with the programming request). The best female time of 21:06 by Meshy Holt (a professional rider from New Zealand), is 2:23 slower than Ray Duggan's 18:43 (which is said to not even be the fastest men's time!). A simple solution would be to remove 143 seconds from all of the women's times. This doesn't in any way upset the rankings within the genders - it just draws the women into the event as full participants with the same opportunity as men to hit any position (from top to bottom) in the overall rankings. After all it is a handicap event in the OPEN time trial series. To see the results of this method, go to http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Racing/TimeTrials/Results/tt/2001/sep06agh.html . I don't think that the current age-handicapping scheme was intended to disadvantage women or to keep women in their place - but it does, and hence I have provided a constructive suggestion. Do others have any views on this? It's our club! Please discuss. In my view it's all a matter of healthy fun with motivation and competition for all. (Actually I am really partial towards completely personal handicapping methods - and that should be up for discussion too!). Celia -- To unsubscribe, send a blank message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Club Office: [EMAIL PROTECTED], (613) 230-1064 Web/mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb Newsletter: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Newsletter ==^ EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aVxiDo.a2i8p1 Or send an email To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email was sent to: archive@jab.org T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [obc] results, handicapping?
While the notion of age handicapping may be appropriate to level the
playing field for older competitors, it will always favour riders who have
always been fast, no matter what their age.
An alternative approach would be to compute a handicap based on a
rider's ability compared with a known standard ('scratch time'), such as the
current club champion, and allocate a handicap based on the difference
between a riders average time and the scratch time.
Under the latter approach, the person with the best improvement
would be the winner of the handicap competition. This method discriminates
against nobody except possibly those who do not have enough performances on
record to yield a reliable average. (Such individuals would be accorded zero
handicap).
'Average' may not necessarily be the best measure - median could
also be used, or some combination.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:18 PM
To: obc
Subject: [obc] results, handicapping?
Hi all:
Well, I finally got my laptop hooked back up to my home network after
arriving home - so the tt results from Aug 9 (found in my huge stash of
snail mail), Aug 30 and Sep 6 are now posted and accessible from the
obcweb. I actually put a few different displays of yesterdays results up
there. Please comment and discuss. It's our club!
Some Backgound on the handicapping disussions (or not...):
Last year when the age-handicapping event was introduced, I immediately
expressed my view to Avery that the method of handicapping would tend to
move women downwards in the overall open rankings since it handicapped
the men and women towards different means (Men at their prime are faster
than women (of the same training/fitness level) at their prime)).
Discussion was not possible. I expressed the view again this year to a
few more of the powers that be and the reactions ranged from unpleasant
to disinterest. I was basically told to not show the men's and women's
rankings on the same page. (I had neither the time to break down the
resistance nor the time (or desire) to comply with the programming
request).
The best female time of 21:06 by Meshy Holt (a professional rider from
New Zealand), is 2:23 slower than Ray Duggan's 18:43 (which is said to
not even be the fastest men's time!). A simple solution would be to
remove 143 seconds from all of the women's times. This doesn't in any
way upset the rankings within the genders - it just draws the women into
the event as full participants with the same opportunity as men to hit
any position (from top to bottom) in the overall rankings. After all it
is a handicap event in the OPEN time trial series. To see the results of
this method, go to
http://www.cyberus.ca/~obcweb/Racing/TimeTrials/Results/tt/2001/sep06agh.h
tml
.
I don't think that the current age-handicapping scheme was intended to
disadvantage women or to keep women in their place - but it does, and
hence I have provided a constructive suggestion.
Do others have any views on this? It's our club! Please discuss. In my
view it's all a matter of healthy fun with motivation and competition
for all. (Actually I am really partial towards completely personal
handicapping methods - and that should be up for discussion too!).
Celia
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RE: [obc] results, handicapping?
Like a golf handicap.
But then we're handicapping for performance rather than non-personal
factors. What should we equalise to find the best?
Age/gender handicapping is fairly easy recognises achievement more
than improvement.
Performance handicapping takes more record keeping, and young
improving cyclists will likely always win! Doing this on a seasonal
basis would be better than averaging in the last 5 years of times.
Might be a nice way to have each rider keep a passport for their
times, getting a handicap assigned after the first 3 trials,
recalculated each time, to see if they're improving.
Tom
On Friday, September 07, 2001 at 16:56, Les Humphreys (K) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote on RE: [obc] results, handicapping?, saying..
While the notion of age handicapping may be appropriate to level the
playing field for older competitors, it will always favour riders who
have always been fast, no matter what their age.
An alternative approach would be to compute a handicap based on a
rider's ability compared with a known standard ('scratch time'), such
as the current club champion, and allocate a handicap based on the
difference between a riders average time and the scratch time.
Under the latter approach, the person with the best improvement
would be the winner of the handicap competition. This method
discriminates against nobody except possibly those who do not have
enough performances on record to yield a reliable average. (Such
individuals would be accorded zero handicap).
...
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