Joe,
While we're on the subject of clarifying the text of the policy, I
have a question regarding 1. g). Is it really necessary to mandate a
version number be presented on the login screen? Or is that wording
just assuming every third party viewer is based on Linden GPLed client
code?
Latif
Apologies to group as I know that this is off topic but did not want this to
go unanswered.
I am not the one that discovered the Quicktime link but it was easy to
prove.
All you have to do is uninstall Quicktime on a Windows machine and you are
invisible even testing with a ripper client that
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 05:30:39PM -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
i.e. You either comply AND feature in the viewer registry. OR ignore it, as
you said and you’d be in breach of the TOS as such: “5.6 You will indemnify
Linden lab from claims arising from breach of this Agreement by you, from your
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 07:55:57PM -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
Of course, I know that Tigro. But just like any web site can detect a
user-agent and block it, I'd like to be able to detect the viewer agent,
(perhaps via llGetAgentInfo) of the avatar getting on my land anyway.
Such would be
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:15:28PM -0500, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
wrote:
There is already at least one viewer developer who is also selling a
product claiming to identify (by some secret proprietary means)
avatars running bad viewers and ban them.
Scenario:
Newbie visits Second
If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
*ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
because that has already a pretty large userbase) just in case.
Ahem ! Define minor TPV please.
___
Policies and (un)subscribe
On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 02:15:16PM +0100, Marine Kelley wrote:
If LL makes the agent ID's public, people will soon ban
*ALL* minor TPV's (being all of them, except maybe emerald,
because that has already a pretty large userbase) just in case.
Ahem ! Define minor TPV please.
*and*
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Lance Corrimal
lance.corri...@eregion.de wrote:
set the media url to something that is not an url to a video, but the url of a
script that exploits something in quicktime to gather data about the client
requesting that url, and poof you have all kind of cans of
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Argent Stonecutter
secret.arg...@gmail.comwrote:
Then make the policy state that. Right now people are seeing it as
ambiguous.
+1 Argent.
Joe has provided very clear and totally unambiguous phrasings, LL please use
them.
While lawyers may thrive on
It's not a concern that apply in this environment.
It would be an issue between the grid and the TPV developers to resolve.
Land owners don't control the markup language structure of their 3d
environment.
On 3/1/10 2:25 PM, Argent Stonecutter secret.arg...@gmail.com wrote:
On 2010-03-01, at
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bryon Ruxton br...@slearth.com wrote:
I talked about banning every unknown or unidentified viewer that is not in
the registry should I have a way to detect the viewer agent. Just like I
have the right to restrict an unidentified web agent or telling an Internet
Am Sonntag 28 Februar 2010 schrieb Henri Beauchamp:
I know the identity requirement will remain, and I expect there
will be a form that's more explicit about what information is
required, if there isn't already.
For now, email and full snail mail address are required in addition
to the
On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:34:55 +0100, Marine Kelley wrote:
I'd like to remind people of my proposed solution, back when LL asked
everyone about how to set their third party viewer policy, a few months ago.
I had proposed to make it so that only viewers built on a LL-owned dedicated
machine
Some people have no problem with showing their private fetishes to the
world, other people like me do. I have a family, a job, and friends. I have
plenty things to hide, my private life is nobody's business, and anybody who
attempts to pry it open will only meet hostility.
On 28 February 2010
Soft Linden schrieb:
As someone else pointed out in this thread, you're able to host your
content outside of Second Life if you want to ensure people are able
to import it again.
So, if the content is licensed under any copyleft license (popular
ones are GPL and the share-alike variants of
posted for Third Party Viewer Policy
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Morgaine
morgaine.din...@googlemail.com wrote:
...
And finally, FAQ.15 (in the context of licenses permitting free
distribution):
Q15: Do the limitations of section 2.b on content export apply to content
that is full
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Soft Linden s...@lindenlab.com wrote:
It's important to understand that one can discontinue use of Second
Life at any point. On doing so, there are no further obligations
imposed by the TPV policy. The legal consults cleared this as a
resolution to all free
It seems to me that this incessant desire to use software licencing
and a viewer whitelist as a lever on downstream viewer developers is
an attempt to reduce the costs of managing the behavior of Linden
Research's customers.
Obviously Linden Research management believes that doing this
wholesale
Soft Linden wrote:
It's important to understand that one can discontinue use of Second
Life at any point. On doing so, there are no further obligations
imposed by the TPV policy. The legal consults cleared this as a
resolution to all free license issues.
Is that the case though? The policy
You're talking commonsense, Thomas. Unfortunately, what's written down is
not the commonsense interpretation that you are making of the words that are
on paper.
In a court of law, it is no defense to say I was adhering to the
commonsense interpretation provided by Thomas Shikami in the mailing
Yes, Mike, we created the Third Party Viewer Directory to promote a range of
viewers that allow Residents to experience Second Life and everything in it
in a wide variety of ways. Since we'll be pointing to it often, it's a
great way for the largest possible audience of Residents to learn about
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Joe Linden j...@lindenlab.com wrote:
Yes, Mike, we created the Third Party Viewer Directory to promote a range
of viewers that allow Residents to experience Second Life and everything in
it in a wide variety of ways.
Joe, thanks for clarifying that what you
The policy still refers to distribution in general, not just those
viewers in the directory.
So, everyone on this list is about to violate it, sorry. This might
seem incredibly silly but shows how much you can break this policy
without having the viewer do anything other than merely connect.
#
This is untested by the way, seriously - probably won't run in its
current state, and i'd advise people not to get it running
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:24 AM, Gareth Nelson gar...@garethnelson.com wrote:
The policy still refers to distribution in general, not just those
viewers in the directory.
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Bryon Ruxton br...@slearth.com wrote:
And I don’t think opting out of the viewer registry should or ever will be
an option.
I haven't heard anybody official say that the registry was mandatory.
Yet.
___
Policies and
Byron, your personal interpretation is at odds with Joe's words.
Plus, Joe has just confirmed what he said earlier regarding promotion
anyway, and it's exactly as he wrote the 1st time around, so it's your
understanding that is flawed. Having your viewer listed in the TPV
Directory is a
Sorry Morgaine, I stand corrected by having read the FAQs afterwards.
I thought registration was required to connect to the grid...
Joe,
I agree with others that it¹s not enough to guard against intellectual
property infringement and protect residents.
Is there a plan to allow inworld residents
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Bryon Ruxton br...@slearth.com wrote:
An LSL function somewhere to identify viewers would help.
Leave then to us the ability to make inworld tools to control who gets in or
not.
Your attention is directed to SVC-4636. I'm sure your support would
be welcomed
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AFAIK it doesn't claim to be able to detect them all the time, nor to be
able to detect all clients that might be out there; it shouldn't be
possible to do it, if he does make claims opposite to that he would be
lying.
On 1/3/2010 00:15, Maggie Leber
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Tateru Nino tateru.n...@gmail.com wrote:
Ah, I'm starting to see now. Developers are only subject to the TPV policy
if they want to be listed in the directory. Users are subject to the policy
should they choose to use a TPV to connect to a Linden-operated grid,
Reposting part of last response to Soft, which the list's Mailman/pipermail
sliced off.
As is written in the answer A15, Residents retain intellectual property
rights in the content they create in Second Life and it is important for
you
to respect those rights. Respecting
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hm, i didn't thought he did collect IP addresses, but even if the system
does catch IP addresses (which isn't such a big deal if you keep your
machine safe) an IP address wouldn't be of any help identifying
malicious clients, unless the malicious
Of course, I know that Tigro. But just like any web site can detect a
user-agent and block it, I'd like to be able to detect the viewer agent,
(perhaps via llGetAgentInfo) of the avatar getting on my land anyway.
Such would be useful for various other reasons such a compatibility checks,
analysis
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
tigrospottystri...@gmail.com wrote:
hm, i didn't thought he did collect IP addresses, but even if the system
does catch IP addresses (which isn't such a big deal if you keep your
machine safe) an IP address wouldn't be of any help
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An user agent string for the client would indeed be useful, but would be
useless to catch all but the lamest malicious clients.
On 1/3/2010 00:55, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
Of course, I know that Tigro. But just like any web site can detect a
user-agent
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So, all that the scriptkiddies out there need to do to evade the all
mighty Gemini CDS malicious client user detection system is to not have
Quicktime installed? And LL is letting all their users run around with
their machines open to attack by
Hi Soft, I'm very pleased too see that some of our biggest concerns
were taken into account. For me especially the FAQ states that
provision 1.h about shared experience is going to be removed, as it
would be impossible to bring Radegast into compliance with the policy
if that clause were to stay
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:14:52 -0600, Soft Linden wrote:
There's now a FAQ for the Linden Lab Policy on Third Party Viewers:
http://bit.ly/caedse
Very good job, Soft, thank you ! :-)
However, there are a couple of points that I think should be addressed
or precised in this FAQ:
1. The
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why it doesn't feel like LL is this connected to us with lots of stuff
most of the time?
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I don't know much about it, but what about the data that most of us already
entered when signing up to SL ? LL should have these data stored somewhere,
why do we have to enter them all again ? If the data to be entered to sign
in to the viewer directory is not linked to it, what gives LL the
A few queries I have:
Sometimes I code random small scripts to do quick inworld tasks - do I
have to have 100% compliance for these scripts?
I have a bot which comes in 2 parts - SL interface and AI engine, the
SL interface being a simple protocol handler - how does the policy
affect my AI engine
Soft Linden wrote:
Remember that we're creating the Viewer Directory to promote other
viewer projects, so complying with the TPV terms offers up a pretty good
carrot. However, I think legal also knows we'd be making trouble for
ourselves if we gave even the whiff of an endorsement to a tool
On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:27:22 +0100, Marine Kelley wrote:
I don't know much about it, but what about the data that most of us already
entered when signing up to SL ? LL should have these data stored somewhere,
why do we have to enter them all again ?
There should be no connection other than
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 01:10:10PM +, Gareth Nelson wrote:
In general, I have to agree with those who say that this will only
burden legit developers - griefers will just ignore the policy and
spoof the official viewer
+1
Especially the clear intend of Linden Lab to make being listed
in
(Sending for like the 4th time I hope this one gets through and sorry if
I've spammed)
Regarding Morgaine's comments about FAQ 15 - I fully agree that this must be
the case:
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 1:47 AM, Morgaine morgaine.din...@googlemail.com
wrote:
And finally, FAQ.15 (in the context of
Fleep, you give an excellent example highlighting the needs of Education in
this area.
Given the huge interest in educational content both in SL and in
Opensim-based grids such as Science Sim, this is certain to be of major and
growing interest.
Perhaps the FAQ could add a *new* clause FAQ.16
Usual I am not a lawyer comments apply.
One thing to keep in mind is that if you own the content, nothing requires
you to distribute it exclusively via Linden Lab's service. If you have a
set of textures which you hold rights to, putting them on Second Life
doesn't remove your rights to use and
I'm not a lawyer either of course, and while that's certainly true Zha, that
you can make textures and such available via another site or source, the
fact is that Second Life and XStreet are the most common distribution points
for content developed for SL and OpenSim platforms.
If someone finds
is going to
cut off revenue sources.
From: Morgaine morgaine.din...@googlemail.com
To: Soft Linden s...@lindenlab.com
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Sat, February 27, 2010 1:47:04 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] FAQ posted for Third Party
You only covered textures there, Zha.
Items made in Second Life are composite objects that encapsulate geometry,
textures, notecards, and often scripting, and it is the whole composite unit
that is being licensed as open content in the scenario being discussed
here. What's more, it may include
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Morgaine
morgaine.din...@googlemail.com wrote:
Q2: Does the policy limit use of the viewer source code that Linden Lab
makes available under the GPL?
A2: No, the policy is not intended to and does not place any restriction on
modification or use of our viewer
Yes. Removing 1.h will be the biggest change made to the TPV policy.
The rest will be much smaller tweaks.
There wasn't a good, unambiguous way to state the intent of that
provision. There were really two parts to it:
1) SL shouldn't just be used as a blind data conduit. We shouldn't be
footing
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 3:32 AM, Henri Beauchamp sl...@free.fr wrote:
On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:14:52 -0600, Soft Linden wrote:
There's now a FAQ for the Linden Lab Policy on Third Party Viewers:
http://bit.ly/caedse
Very good job, Soft, thank you ! :-)
Ah, I didn't write it! I only pointed
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 5:27 AM, Marine Kelley marinekel...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know much about it, but what about the data that most of us already
entered when signing up to SL ? LL should have these data stored somewhere,
why do we have to enter them all again ? If the data to be entered
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sounds promising, thanx :)
On 27/2/2010 00:14, Soft Linden wrote:
There's now a FAQ for the Linden Lab Policy on Third Party Viewers:
http://bit.ly/caedse
This addresses many of the questions and concerns made in
opensource-dev and elsewhere.
Two months to make changes? I was told we had 3 months.
On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 21:14 -0600, Soft Linden wrote:
There's now a FAQ for the Linden Lab Policy on Third Party Viewers:
http://bit.ly/caedse
This addresses many of the questions and concerns made in
opensource-dev and elsewhere. An
Thank you for the hard work there Soft. It answers all of the questions I
have except for this section:
What is the meaning of the Viewer Directory eligibility requirement that
your Second Life accounts must be in good standing, must not be suspended,
and must never have been permanently banned
Guess I could word that better. We have had people who have had their
accounts terminated for lesser infractions then people who violated the TOS
but were given a pass by Linden Labs. And once a gain you have teams that
have multiple devs that have been banned but they are given a pass as
opposed
I know the question of how to resolve a ban when multiple people are
behind the viewer is in legal's pile. I'm surprised it didn't make the
FAQ, so I'll send a reminder about that ambiguity.
There are checkered histories for some existing viewer developers,
yes. It's not our policy to talk about
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Btw, talking about checkered histories, hypotheticly, if someone has had
their account suspended for a time because of unfounded accusations of
being underage, would that prevent the person from being authorized to
offer a client that connects to LL's
I feel I should add too - this isn't all stick, as my below
speculation about legal's intent might have suggested. Remember that
we're creating the Viewer Directory to promote other viewer projects,
so complying with the TPV terms offers up a pretty good carrot.
However, I think legal also knows
Absolutely not. Anyone who governance clears as having been wrongly
accused is off the hook, and accounts even get noted that way so it's
the first thing in front of any Linden who brings up an account.
Don't worry that the Viewer Directory's going to become so automated
that human evaluation
Soft, this is quite a good FAQ (particularly compared to TPV #1:P) as it
clears up a large number of points. I thought it might resolve the earlier
problems re GPL compliance, particularly since it addresses the GPL
directly. But when I examined it more closely it still has holes and
confusion
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