Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-10-04 Thread Schmicker, Robert
Not sure if I'm late to the party on this one but check out this link:

https://wiki.openssl.org/index.php/How_to_Integrate_a_Symmetric_Cipher

I wrote this up a few months back so let me know if you have any questions.

Rob

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Topics: 1. Re: Integrating New Cipher Suite (Jakob Bohm) 2. Re: FIPS Object 
Module 2.0, fipsalgtest.pl fails (Diaz de Grenu, Jose) 3. Re: FIPS Object 
Module 2.0, fipsalgtest.pl fails (Steve Marquess) 4. Engine configuration 
(Dmitry Belyavsky) 5. Re: Engine configuration (Dr. Stephen Henson) 6. AES CMAC 
with given iv (Stefan Gr?nwald) 7. Re: FIPS Object Module 2.0, fipsalgtest.pl 
fails (Diaz de Grenu, Jose) 8. Re: Storing private key on tokens (lists) 
-- Message: 
1 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 13:52:18 +0200 From: Jakob Bohm To: 
openssl-users@openssl.org Subject: Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher 
Suite Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 
02/10/2017 00:47, Dr. Stephen Henson wrote: > On Sun, Oct 01, 2017, Wallboy 
wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> ... >> Bonus Question: Is it possible to remove the SCSV 
cipher in the ClientHello? >> > You can't remove it without making source 
changes. Again it's in the > ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes() function. > Have you 
tried clearing SSL_MODE_SEND_FALLBACK_SCSV (in a program), or (not) using the 
-fallback_scsv option to s_client? Enjoy Jakob -- Jakob Bohm, CIO, Partner, 
WiseMo A/S. 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wisemo.com=02%7C01%7Crschm2%40unh.newhaven.edu%7C50cde6976b254f2c412e08d50b021142%7C3c71cbabb5ed4f3bac0d95509d6c0e93%7C0%7C0%7C636427025869613510=LVMC1kSp3iqPTwUPFYLAfNrPzByVOBFdcH3qMS3P5TY%3D=0
 Transformervej 29, 2860 S?borg, Denmark. Direct +45 31 13 16 10 This public 
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Message: 2 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 14:29:06 + From: "Diaz de Grenu, Jose" To: 
"openssl-users@openssl.org" Subject: Re: [openssl-users] FIPS Object Module 
2.0, fipsalgtest.pl fails Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; 
charset="us-ascii" > The FIPS module and test suite software (fipsalgtest.pl) 
are designed to work with exactly those algorithm tests relevant to the 
associated validations > (#1747/2398/2473). The test labs generate a unique set 
of test vectors for each platform validation; those test vectors must be of the 
expected format to > be successfully processed. Often they are not, either 
because they we incorrectly specified or due to errors. Figuring out such 
discrepancies can be lots of > fun (not!). > You will want to compare your test 
vectors with a known good set from 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fopenssl.com%2Ftesting%2Fvalidation-2.0%2Ftestvectors%2F=02%7C01%7Crschm2%40unh.newhaven.edu%7C50cde6976b254f2c412e08d50b021142%7C3c71cbabb5ed4f3bac0d95509d6c0e93%7C0%7C0%7C636427025869613510=9Eh2AW%2FpJaCMJba4mKGOFEB%2F0VORUG8aocNuMZQnWQw%3D=0.
 Pick a recent set, as the format of the test vectors changes over time. Note 
that as > a result frequent adjustment of fipsalgtest.pl is often necessary. I 
have tried with all the tarballs but I am not able to find one which works 
without errors. Is there any way to check which test vector were used for FIPS 
Object Module 2.0.16? -- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 2 
Oct 2017 11:39:11 -0400 From: Steve Marquess To: openssl-users@openssl.org 
Subject: Re: [openssl-users] FIPS Object Module 2.0, fipsalgtest.pl fails 
Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 10/02/2017 10:29 AM, 
Diaz de Grenu, Jose wrote: > >> The FIPS module and test suite software 
(fipsalgtest.pl) are designed to work with exactly those algorithm tests 
relevant to the associated validations >> (#1747/2398/2473). The test labs 
generate a unique set of test vectors for each platform valid

Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-10-02 Thread Jakob Bohm

On 02/10/2017 00:47, Dr. Stephen Henson wrote:

On Sun, Oct 01, 2017, Wallboy wrote:


Hi,

...
Bonus Question: Is it possible to remove the SCSV cipher in the ClientHello?


You can't remove it without making source changes. Again it's in the
ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes() function.


Have you tried clearing SSL_MODE_SEND_FALLBACK_SCSV (in a program),
or (not) using the -fallback_scsv option to s_client?

Enjoy

Jakob
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Transformervej 29, 2860 Søborg, Denmark.  Direct +45 31 13 16 10
This public discussion message is non-binding and may contain errors.
WiseMo - Remote Service Management for PCs, Phones and Embedded

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Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-10-01 Thread Dr. Stephen Henson
On Sun, Oct 01, 2017, Wallboy wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm also interested in adding a few "pseudo" ciphersuites to OpenSSL.
> Notably the 16 GREASE ones Chrome currently uses (0x0A0A, 0x1A1A...0xFAFA).
> 
> I made similar changes to the files listed in this thread and compiled
> successfully (based on 1.1.0f). I see the new cipher when doing "openssl
> ciphers ALL:eNULL". 
> 
> However I had the same issue that when trying to include it using s_client,
> the ClientHello message did not actually send it:
> 
> openssl s_client -cipher "ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:GREASE-0A0A" -connect
> www.google.com:443 -servername www.google.com
> 
> ClientHello contained two ciphersuites. The first one listed and also the
> SCSV cipher
> 
> I then tried this:
> 
> openssl s_client -cipher "ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:GREASE-0A0A:@SECLEVEL=0"
> -connect www.google.com:443 -servername www.google.com
> 
> Bingo! But the ClientHello now sends 4 Ciphersuites. The first one listed,
> followed by my GREASE pseudo cipher, then TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_MD5, then the
> SCSV cipher.
> 
> I'm not sure why that RC4 cipher is sent. Although it probably has to do
> with the fact I structured that GREASE cipher after it:
> 
>  {
>  1,
>  SSL3_TXT_GREASE1,
>  SSL3_CK_GREASE1,
>  SSL_kRSA,
>  SSL_aRSA,
>  SSL_RC4,
>  SSL_MD5,
>  SSL3_VERSION, TLS1_2_VERSION,
>  0, 0,
>  SSL_NOT_DEFAULT | SSL_MEDIUM,
>  SSL_HANDSHAKE_MAC_DEFAULT | TLS1_PRF,
>  128,
>  128,
>  },
> 
> If I'm just trying to use it as a pseudo cipher for ClientHello messages,
> how should it look in the above struct? And how can I get it to send without
> specifying SECLEVEL=0?
> 

If you want to specify the ciphersuites in the cipher string then they need to
be part of the list of ciphers. However these wouldn't be normal ciphersuites:
they'd never be selected by a server for example. Giving them separate
definitions and handling does go against the requirements of GREASE draft
though.

Your problems are because you copied the definitions for that RC4 ciphersuite.
The fact it uses MD5 means it gets rules out at anything other than security
level 0.

If you just want to include them in a client hello you can do something
similar to the scsv code which adds its own pseudo-ciphersuite. In particular
the code in ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes().

> Bonus Question: Is it possible to remove the SCSV cipher in the ClientHello?
> 

You can't remove it without making source changes. Again it's in the
ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes() function.

Steve.
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Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-10-01 Thread Wallboy
Hi,

I'm also interested in adding a few "pseudo" ciphersuites to OpenSSL.
Notably the 16 GREASE ones Chrome currently uses (0x0A0A, 0x1A1A...0xFAFA).

I made similar changes to the files listed in this thread and compiled
successfully (based on 1.1.0f). I see the new cipher when doing "openssl
ciphers ALL:eNULL". 

However I had the same issue that when trying to include it using s_client,
the ClientHello message did not actually send it:

openssl s_client -cipher "ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:GREASE-0A0A" -connect
www.google.com:443 -servername www.google.com

ClientHello contained two ciphersuites. The first one listed and also the
SCSV cipher

I then tried this:

openssl s_client -cipher "ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:GREASE-0A0A:@SECLEVEL=0"
-connect www.google.com:443 -servername www.google.com

Bingo! But the ClientHello now sends 4 Ciphersuites. The first one listed,
followed by my GREASE pseudo cipher, then TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_MD5, then the
SCSV cipher.

I'm not sure why that RC4 cipher is sent. Although it probably has to do
with the fact I structured that GREASE cipher after it:

 {
 1,
 SSL3_TXT_GREASE1,
 SSL3_CK_GREASE1,
 SSL_kRSA,
 SSL_aRSA,
 SSL_RC4,
 SSL_MD5,
 SSL3_VERSION, TLS1_2_VERSION,
 0, 0,
 SSL_NOT_DEFAULT | SSL_MEDIUM,
 SSL_HANDSHAKE_MAC_DEFAULT | TLS1_PRF,
 128,
 128,
 },

If I'm just trying to use it as a pseudo cipher for ClientHello messages,
how should it look in the above struct? And how can I get it to send without
specifying SECLEVEL=0?

Bonus Question: Is it possible to remove the SCSV cipher in the ClientHello?

Thanks for any help




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Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-04-18 Thread Dr. Stephen Henson
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017, Schmicker, Robert wrote:

> 
> 
> After some debugging (exactly as mentioned above) it appears that the cipher 
> suite does not show up in the ClientHello using the s_client/s_server. I 
> modified the cipher for testing to use 512 bits instead of 64 so that it is 
> ranked highest.
> 
> Error server side:
> SSL routines:tls_post_process_client_hello:no shared 
> cipher:ssl/statem/statem_srvr.c:1979
> 
> Error Client side:
> SSL routines:ssl3_read_bytes:tlsv1 alert internal 
> error:ssl/record/rec_layer_s3.c:1469:SSL alert number 80
> 
> Any idea why the cipher would appear under the list of supported tls1.2 
> ciphers, yet it does not appear under the ClientHello even if specified with 
> the -cipher option?
> 

Hmm... it's not clear why the cipher isn't being sent in client hello. What
output do you get with -security_debug_verbose option? Also try including
@SECLEVEL=0 in the cipher string.

Steve.
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Commercial tech support now available see: http://www.openssl.org
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Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-04-13 Thread Schmicker, Robert
Added a define in include/openssl/ssl.h:
   # define SSL_TXT_MYCIPHER   "MYCIPHER"

Integrated into ssl/s3_lib.c:
   static SSL_CIPHER ssl3_ciphers[] = {

   {
1,
TLS1_TXT_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_MYCIPHER_SHA384,
TLS1_CK_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_MYCIPHER_SHA384,
SSL_kECDHE,
SSL_aECDSA,
SSL_MYCIPHER,
SSL_AEAD,
TLS1_2_VERSION, TLS1_2_VERSION,
DTLS1_2_VERSION, DTLS1_2_VERSION,
SSL_HIGH | SSL_FIPS,
SSL_HANDSHAKE_MAC_SHA384 | TLS1_PRF_SHA384,
64,
64,
   },


>That's a pretty small number of bits. Do you really mean it to be only 64?
>
>Does you ciphersuite show up with cipher -s?
>
>It's possible it is being rejected because it has insufficient security. If
>the number of bits is really 64 you could try droppping the security level to
>0 to allow it.
>
>If that doesn't help enable trace support with enable-ssl-trace and then try
>the -trace command ot s_client/s_server and see if the new ciphersuites is
>sent in ClientHello
>
>Steve.
>--
>Dr Stephen N. Henson. OpenSSL project core developer.
>Commercial tech support now available see: http://www.openssl.org


After some debugging (exactly as mentioned above) it appears that the cipher 
suite does not show up in the ClientHello using the s_client/s_server. I 
modified the cipher for testing to use 512 bits instead of 64 so that it is 
ranked highest.

Error server side:
SSL routines:tls_post_process_client_hello:no shared 
cipher:ssl/statem/statem_srvr.c:1979

Error Client side:
SSL routines:ssl3_read_bytes:tlsv1 alert internal 
error:ssl/record/rec_layer_s3.c:1469:SSL alert number 80

Any idea why the cipher would appear under the list of supported tls1.2 
ciphers, yet it does not appear under the ClientHello even if specified with 
the -cipher option?

Thank you for any leads!
Rob


On 4/12/17 8:06 AM, 
openssl-users-requ...@openssl.org<mailto:openssl-users-requ...@openssl.org> 
wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Integrating New Cipher Suite (Dr. Stephen Henson)
   2. Re: RSA PKCS1 v2.1 - Multi-primes and RSASSA-PSS (Davy Souza)
   3.  Escaped Issuer/Subject (c.hol...@ades.at<mailto:c.hol...@ades.at>)
   4. Multithreading: Global locks causing bottleneck in parallel
  SSL_write calls (dipakgaigole)


--

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 18:54:09 +
From: "Dr. Stephen Henson" <st...@openssl.org><mailto:st...@openssl.org>
To: openssl-users@openssl.org<mailto:openssl-users@openssl.org>
Subject: Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite
Message-ID: 
<20170411185409.ga23...@openssl.org><mailto:20170411185409.ga23...@openssl.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017, Schmicker, Robert wrote:



Added a define in include/openssl/ssl.h:
   # define SSL_TXT_MYCIPHER   "MYCIPHER"

Integrated into ssl/s3_lib.c:
   static SSL_CIPHER ssl3_ciphers[] = {

   {
1,
TLS1_TXT_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_MYCIPHER_SHA384,
TLS1_CK_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_MYCIPHER_SHA384,
SSL_kECDHE,
SSL_aECDSA,
SSL_MYCIPHER,
SSL_AEAD,
TLS1_2_VERSION, TLS1_2_VERSION,
DTLS1_2_VERSION, DTLS1_2_VERSION,
SSL_HIGH | SSL_FIPS,
SSL_HANDSHAKE_MAC_SHA384 | TLS1_PRF_SHA384,
64,
64,
   },



That's a pretty small number of bits. Do you really mean it to be only 64?

Does you ciphersuite show up with cipher -s?

It's possible it is being rejected because it has insufficient security. If
the number of bits is really 64 you could try droppping the security level to
0 to allow it.

If that doesn't help enable trace support with enable-ssl-trace and then try
the -trace command ot s_client/s_server and see if the new ciphersuites is
sent in ClientHello

Steve.
--
Dr Stephen N. Henson. OpenSSL project core developer.
Commercial tech support now available see: http://www.openssl.org


--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:50:29 +
From: Davy Souza <davy.so...@outlook.com><mailto:davy.so...@outlook.com>
To: "openssl-users@openssl.org"<mailto:openssl-users@openssl.org> 
<openssl-users@openssl.org><mailto:openssl-users@openssl.org>
Subject: Re: [openssl-users] RSA PKCS1 v2.1 - Multi-primes and

Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-04-11 Thread Schmicker, Robert
0);
>}
> 
> 
>if ( ctx == NULL )
>{
>ERR_print_errors_fp(stderr);
>abort();
>}
>return ctx;
> }
> 
> server:
> 
> SSL_CTX* InitServerCTX(void)
> {   const SSL_METHOD *method;
>SSL_CTX *ctx;
> 
>OpenSSL_add_all_algorithms();  /* load & register all cryptos, etc. */
>SSL_load_error_strings();   /* load all error messages */
>method = SSLv23_server_method();  /* create new server-method
> instance */
>ctx = SSL_CTX_new(method);   /* create new context from method */
> 
>/* Set cipher to use */
>if (SSL_CTX_set_cipher_list(ctx, "ECDHE-RSA-MYCIPHER-SHA256") <= 0) {
>    printf("Error setting the cipher list.\n");
>exit(0);
>}
> 
>if ( ctx == NULL )
>{
>ERR_print_errors_fp(stderr);
>abort();
>}
>return ctx;
> }
> 
> Thank you,
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:03:05 +0100
> From: Matt Caswell <m...@openssl.org>
> To: openssl-users@openssl.org
> Subject: Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite
> Message-ID: <ea1e67d0-582c-6b2a-d147-696d03a7d...@openssl.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/04/17 18:56, Schmicker, Robert wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I'm attempting to integrate a customized cipher suite for TLS 1.2,
>> however no matter what I try I always seem to end up with this error
>> (client side):
>> 
>> SSL routines:ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes:no ciphers
>> available:ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:3567
>> 
>> Can anyone give some further explanation on this?
> 
> There is no way of dynamically adding new TLS1.2 ciphersuites into
> OpenSSL. The only way to do this is to modify the source code. If that's
> what you've done then you're going to need to provide a lot more
> information about the changes you have made before anyone can help!
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
>> 
>> Here's some snippets from the client and server setup.
>> 
>> client:
>> 
>> SSL_CTX* InitCTX(void)
>> {   const SSL_METHOD *method;
>>SSL_CTX *ctx;
>> 
>>OpenSSL_add_all_algorithms();  /* Load cryptos, et.al. */
>>SSL_load_error_strings();   /* Bring in and register error messages */
>>method = SSLv23_client_method();  /* Create new client-method
>> instance */
>>ctx = SSL_CTX_new(method);   /* Create new context */
>> 
>>/* Set cipher to use */
>>if (SSL_CTX_set_cipher_list(ctx, "ECDHE-RSA-MYCIPHER-SHA256") <= 0) {
>>printf("Error setting the cipher list.\n");
>>exit(0);
>>}
>> 
>> 
>>if ( ctx == NULL )
>>{
>>ERR_print_errors_fp(stderr);
>>abort();
>>}
>>return ctx;
>> }
>> 
>> server:
>> 
>> SSL_CTX* InitServerCTX(void)
>> {   const SSL_METHOD *method;
>>SSL_CTX *ctx;
>> 
>>OpenSSL_add_all_algorithms();  /* load & register all cryptos, etc. */
>>SSL_load_error_strings();   /* load all error messages */
>>method = SSLv23_server_method();  /* create new server-method
>> instance */
>>ctx = SSL_CTX_new(method);   /* create new context from method */
>> 
>>/* Set cipher to use */
>>if (SSL_CTX_set_cipher_list(ctx, "ECDHE-RSA-MYCIPHER-SHA256") <= 0) {
>>printf("Error setting the cipher list.\n");
>>exit(0);
>>}
>> 
>>if ( ctx == NULL )
>>{
>>ERR_print_errors_fp(stderr);
>>abort();
>>}
>>return ctx;
>> }
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Rob
>> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2017 13:46:26 +
> From: "Dr. Stephen Henson" <st...@openssl.org>
> To: openssl-users@openssl.org
> Subject: Re: [openssl-users] RSA PKCS1 v2.1 - Multi-primes and
>   RSASSA-PSS
> Message-ID: <20170410134626.ga28...@openssl.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> On Wed, Apr 05, 2017, Davy Souza wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> I'm using RSA, but I need to know if OpenSSL RSA implements PKCS#1 v2.1. I 
>> have the following questions:
>> 
>>   1) Does OpenSSL support multi-prime?
>> 
> 
> No.
> 
>>   2) Does OpenSSL support RSASSA-PSS?
>> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
>>   3) If so, how can I use it?
>> 
> 
> In what context do you want to use it? For example CMS, ce

Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-04-10 Thread Dr. Stephen Henson
On Sat, Apr 08, 2017, Schmicker, Robert wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I'm attempting to integrate a customized cipher suite for TLS 1.2,
> however no matter what I try I always seem to end up with this error
> (client side):
> 
> SSL routines:ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes:no ciphers
> available:ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:3567
> 
> Can anyone give some further explanation on this?
> 
> Here's some snippets from the client and server setup.
> 
> client:
> 

That sounds like the cipher isn't visible.

I'd suggest trying s_client/s_server first.

Which version of OpenSSL are you using?

Does your new cipher appear in "openssl ciphers"? If so does the output look
sensible? Does it appear with the -s option too?

Is the cipher visible using "openssl list -cipher-algorithms" (OpenSSL 1.1.0)
or "openssl list-cipher-algorithms" (OpenSSL 1.0.2).

Is your new cipher usable via the command line utilities like "enc"? Does it
seems to be behaving as expected?

Steve.
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Commercial tech support now available see: http://www.openssl.org
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Re: [openssl-users] Integrating New Cipher Suite

2017-04-10 Thread Matt Caswell


On 08/04/17 18:56, Schmicker, Robert wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm attempting to integrate a customized cipher suite for TLS 1.2,
> however no matter what I try I always seem to end up with this error
> (client side):
> 
> SSL routines:ssl_cipher_list_to_bytes:no ciphers
> available:ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:3567
> 
> Can anyone give some further explanation on this?

There is no way of dynamically adding new TLS1.2 ciphersuites into
OpenSSL. The only way to do this is to modify the source code. If that's
what you've done then you're going to need to provide a lot more
information about the changes you have made before anyone can help!

Matt


> 
> Here's some snippets from the client and server setup.
> 
> client:
> 
> SSL_CTX* InitCTX(void)
> {   const SSL_METHOD *method;
> SSL_CTX *ctx;
> 
> OpenSSL_add_all_algorithms();  /* Load cryptos, et.al. */
> SSL_load_error_strings();   /* Bring in and register error messages */
> method = SSLv23_client_method();  /* Create new client-method
> instance */
> ctx = SSL_CTX_new(method);   /* Create new context */
> 
> /* Set cipher to use */
> if (SSL_CTX_set_cipher_list(ctx, "ECDHE-RSA-MYCIPHER-SHA256") <= 0) {
> printf("Error setting the cipher list.\n");
> exit(0);
> }
> 
> 
> if ( ctx == NULL )
> {
> ERR_print_errors_fp(stderr);
> abort();
> }
> return ctx;
> }
> 
> server:
> 
> SSL_CTX* InitServerCTX(void)
> {   const SSL_METHOD *method;
> SSL_CTX *ctx;
> 
> OpenSSL_add_all_algorithms();  /* load & register all cryptos, etc. */
> SSL_load_error_strings();   /* load all error messages */
> method = SSLv23_server_method();  /* create new server-method
> instance */
> ctx = SSL_CTX_new(method);   /* create new context from method */
>
> /* Set cipher to use */
> if (SSL_CTX_set_cipher_list(ctx, "ECDHE-RSA-MYCIPHER-SHA256") <= 0) {
> printf("Error setting the cipher list.\n");
> exit(0);
> }
> 
> if ( ctx == NULL )
> {
> ERR_print_errors_fp(stderr);
> abort();
> }
> return ctx;
> }
> 
> Thank you,
> Rob
> 
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