Re: Hetzner
thus Hannah Schroeter spake: Hi! Hi, On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 05:52:08AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: So am I, running a middle node. However, for months now I'm thinking of reverting it to an exit node as the situation that everyone runs a middle node, but no one dares to run an exit node just lets TOR die. Hidden services will run very fine with only middleman and bridge nodes. that's true, for sure. However, we create a parallel world doing this. From a metaphysical POV (IMHO), TOR is (partly) existing to defend civil rights. But to be able to do this, it must exist not only in a 'parallel world'. Losing connection to 'this world' (today's internet) would mean to lose the 'war'. Best, Timo Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: Hetzner
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:28:23AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: Hidden services will run very fine with only middleman and bridge nodes. that's true, for sure. However, we create a parallel world doing this. That's not a bug, it's a feature. From a metaphysical POV (IMHO), TOR is (partly) existing to defend civil rights. But to be able to do this, it must exist not only in a The free, uncesored Intenet is dead. The sooner we acknowledge this, and realize that we need an anonymizing publishing layer on top of that the better. I keep harping about that since early 1990s. Surisingly little has happened since. 'parallel world'. Losing connection to 'this world' (today's internet) would mean to lose the 'war'. Things are never quite black and white. There is a network that is censored and sniffed but also accountable, and hence less prone to abuse. On top of that you can have a network that anonymous/pseudonymous, unaccountable, and slightly abusive. There's a place for both of them to exist. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: Hetzner
thus Eugen Leitl spake: On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:28:23AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: Hidden services will run very fine with only middleman and bridge nodes. that's true, for sure. However, we create a parallel world doing this. That's not a bug, it's a feature. I never said that it's a bug. I just said that if we drop the connection to the 'normal' internet we lost the fight. Things like the french revolution were without avail. From a metaphysical POV (IMHO), TOR is (partly) existing to defend civil rights. But to be able to do this, it must exist not only in a The free, uncesored Intenet is dead. So, we already lost it. The sooner we acknowledge this, and realize that we need an anonymizing publishing layer on top of that the better. The problem is that TOR (and any other system accomplishing this target) excludes the 'masses', if one may say so. I keep harping about that since early 1990s. Surisingly little has happened since. 'parallel world'. Losing connection to 'this world' (today's internet) would mean to lose the 'war'. Things are never quite black and white. A few things are, some are not. Have you ever seen a girl being 'a little big pregnant'? ;) There is a network that is censored and sniffed but also accountable, and hence less prone to abuse. On top of that you can have a network that anonymous/pseudonymous, unaccountable, and slightly abusive. There's a place for both of them to exist. True. Timo
Re: Hetzner
On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:50:08AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: I never said that it's a bug. I just said that if we drop the connection to the 'normal' internet we lost the fight. Things like the french It is more useful as seeing it as two unrelated networks. That one is implemented as a virtual layer on top of another isn't that relevant. The point is that you can use two (or more, such as you can use IPv4 and IPv6 on dual-stack setups, and VPNs) networks simultaneously. The free, uncesored Intenet is dead. So, we already lost it. If you want to see it in such stark terms, yes. However, it's still perfectly possible to access and publish information uncensored. Our task should be to remove the friction, to make it easier for people. So far, operating anonymizing networks like Tor isn't illegal in most locations, yet. Where it is illegal (frequently, by use of unconstituional laws, which makes it high treason, and explicitly allowing armed resistance if everything else fails in some constitutions, like e.g. the German Grundgesetz), it is of course morally permissible to use guerilla tactics. A simple solution for that case would be to use a self-propagating Tor worm, which infects systems, causes a fraction of them to become middleman and others exits. Such a system would be self-propagating, and trying to shut the nodes down would resemble a game of whack-a-mole. The problem is that TOR (and any other system accomplishing this target) excludes the 'masses', if one may say so. In totalitarian countries, where means of publishing (such as xerox machines) were outlawed a small fraction was still capable obtaining censored information. Resistance in face of state threats isn't for the weak of heart. If anonymous access is made illegal I don't expect more than 1-5% of the population of using it. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: Hetzner
Hi! On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 08:19:03AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: That's more than true; however, I just wanted to show (and thusly, prepare for action in consequence) that (especially) German ISPs will be much more rigid from now on. Any other countries really better? The rest of the EU either *has moved* or will be moving to the same direction, as much of the shit comes from/via the EU (e.g. data retention). The US have their own problems (e.g. DMCA, e.g. extra-legal surveillance, being de facto legalized in hindsight by an amnesty for the eavesdroppers, e.g. worse privacy protection laws to begin with). Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: Hetzner
Hi! On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 05:52:08AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: So am I, running a middle node. However, for months now I'm thinking of reverting it to an exit node as the situation that everyone runs a middle node, but no one dares to run an exit node just lets TOR die. Hidden services will run very fine with only middleman and bridge nodes. Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: Hetzner
thus Sebastian Hahn spake: On Jun 17, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Sören Weber wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Fabian Keilfreebsd-lis...@fabiankeil.de wrote: Alleged copyright infringements. Yes, of course. He stated that he doesn't believe that these mails are caused by the owners of the servers. Rather he thinks that Hetzner could lose its face in some way. Additionally these mails are semi-automatically processed, so they have to invest manpower to get them forwarded (I'd be happy if they would just throw them away. Same effect). Hi Sören, thanks for your efforts so far! It would be great if Hetzner learned a bit more about Tor, so if you want, you may point them in the direction of tor-assistants. There are a few Germans who would be able to talk to them, if you think they still have trouble understanding how Tor works. I think it would be a good idea to educate the hosting providers before they decide to dislike Tor. Thanks! Sebastian Hi, IMHO it's not the problem of 'how TOR works' or the (unquestionable) benefits it provides, it's more the problem of the 'image' of the ISP that hosts (customer's) exit nodes and therefore might have problems with the local law (copyright infringements, etc). Especially the censorship^Wchild porn filtering discussion in Germany forces this topic being discussed, as claiming an exit node having provided access to forbidden content is the 'A-bomb of getting a host down' -- even if it didn't something forbidden. Best, Timo
Re: Hetzner
Hi Timo, On Jun 18, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Timo Schoeler wrote: Hi, IMHO it's not the problem of 'how TOR works' or the (unquestionable) benefits it provides, it's more the problem of the 'image' of the ISP that hosts (customer's) exit nodes and therefore might have problems with the local law (copyright infringements, etc). The first step really is understanding how Tor works (for example, that there is a difference between exit and non-exit nodes). But how Tor works doesn't stop at explaining the technical aspects, it's also about the community, the people who depend on it, and the role of the ISP. Especially the censorship^Wchild porn filtering discussion in Germany forces this topic being discussed, as claiming an exit node having provided access to forbidden content is the 'A-bomb of getting a host down' -- even if it didn't something forbidden. Being a part of that decision and clearly showing where you stand is better than passively watching. Best, Timo Best Sebastian
Re: Hetzner
Hi Sebastian, Hi Timo, On Jun 18, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Timo Schoeler wrote: Hi, IMHO it's not the problem of 'how TOR works' or the (unquestionable) benefits it provides, it's more the problem of the 'image' of the ISP that hosts (customer's) exit nodes and therefore might have problems with the local law (copyright infringements, etc). The first step really is understanding how Tor works (for example, that there is a difference between exit and non-exit nodes). Sure. But -- from the ISP's lawyers POV -- where's the difference between providing _encrypted_ and maybe _anonymized_ access to $FORBIDDEN_CONTENT and _unencryped_, _not annonymized_ access? There just is no difference. You're _possibly_ (sic!) breaking the law, and this is sufficient to shut down your machine. This is some kind of 'minority report' becoming reality. But how Tor works doesn't stop at explaining the technical aspects, it's also about the community, the people who depend on it, and the role of the ISP. Especially the censorship^Wchild porn filtering discussion in Germany forces this topic being discussed, as claiming an exit node having provided access to forbidden content is the 'A-bomb of getting a host down' -- even if it didn't something forbidden. Being a part of that decision and clearly showing where you stand is better than passively watching. That's more than true; however, I just wanted to show (and thusly, prepare for action in consequence) that (especially) German ISPs will be much more rigid from now on. Timo Best, Timo Best Sebastian
Re: Hetzner
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 05:52:08AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: So am I, running a middle node. However, for months now I'm thinking of reverting it to an exit node as the situation that everyone runs a middle node, but no one dares to run an exit node just lets TOR die. This is great, but please be careful. Depending on the Bundesland customs vary, and it's pretty clear that online anonymity in Germany is firmly in the crosshairs. Eugen's mail: | I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which | resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. sounded very interesting. What was the reason for their visits? Two cases of complaints (petty online fraud), with the local cop acting as a proxy for the public persecutor, taking up the protocol. I denied the charges of course, and explained how Tor works, brought printouts, including a list of nodes and my node being listed. One case was a fax from BKA accusing me in trafficking in pedophilia. I decided that I don't really want to have my family deal with a search warrant in the wee hours, and switched to middleman. No complaints so far. The problem remains: No exit nodes, no reliable/fast/stable/anonymous TOR. This has to be fixed, and the urgency to fix this gets stronger every day (see geopolitical stuff, yallayalla). -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: Hetzner
thus Eugen Leitl spake: On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 05:52:08AM +0200, Timo Schoeler wrote: So am I, running a middle node. However, for months now I'm thinking of reverting it to an exit node as the situation that everyone runs a middle node, but no one dares to run an exit node just lets TOR die. This is great, but please be careful. Depending on the Bundesland customs vary, and it's pretty clear that online anonymity in Germany is firmly in the crosshairs. Hence the discussion, I guess... ;) Eugen's mail: | I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which | resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. sounded very interesting. What was the reason for their visits? Two cases of complaints (petty online fraud), with the local cop acting as a proxy for the public persecutor, taking up the protocol. I denied the charges of course, and explained how Tor works, brought printouts, including a list of nodes and my node being listed. One case was a fax from BKA accusing me in trafficking in pedophilia. I decided that I don't really want to have my family deal with a search warrant in the wee hours, and switched to middleman. No complaints so far. Hard stuff. But since 'they' have those 'weapons' against running an exit node, what can we do (technologically, politically, ...) against it, to provide free speech in future? The problem remains: No exit nodes, no reliable/fast/stable/anonymous TOR. This has to be fixed, and the urgency to fix this gets stronger every day (see geopolitical stuff, yallayalla).
Re: Hetzner
On Wednesday 17 June 2009, Eugen Leitl wrote: I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. I don't think Hetzner will give a damn if you're running a middleman. Especially if it's throttled, so you're not making them lose money on you. That's also my opinion. We also ran an exit node at Hetzner which lead to several discussions with their abuse people. One time the server simply was shut down and it took me days and much discussion to bring them to activate the network again. They have been very uncooperative all the time. As a consequence, we moved our services away from Hetzner. Bernhard signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Hetzner
thus Bernhard Fischer spake: On Wednesday 17 June 2009, Eugen Leitl wrote: I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. I don't think Hetzner will give a damn if you're running a middleman. Especially if it's throttled, so you're not making them lose money on you. That's also my opinion. We also ran an exit node at Hetzner which lead to several discussions with their abuse people. One time the server simply was shut down and it took me days and much discussion to bring them to activate the network again. They have been very uncooperative all the time. As a consequence, we moved our services away from Hetzner. Bernhard All other ISPs (in Germany) will behave exactly the same way due to suppression from the state... Timo
Re: Hetzner
- Original Message From: Timo Schoeler timo.schoe...@riscworks.net To: or-talk@freehaven.net Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:56:03 AM Subject: Re: Hetzner thus Bernhard Fischer spake: On Wednesday 17 June 2009, Eugen Leitl wrote: I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. I don't think Hetzner will give a damn if you're running a middleman. Especially if it's throttled, so you're not making them lose money on you. That's also my opinion. We also ran an exit node at Hetzner which lead to several discussions with their abuse people. One time the server simply was shut down and it took me days and much discussion to bring them to activate the network again. They have been very uncooperative all the time. As a consequence, we moved our services away from Hetzner. Bernhard All other ISPs (in Germany) will behave exactly the same way due to suppression from the state... Timo Note how that even after multiple abuse shutdowns, much discussion, eventual reactivation (thereby indicating that they understood that the alleged abuse did not originate from the customer), and a history of uncooperative behavior on their part: they still pretend that they have never heard of Tor. It looks like they just want people to waste time and energy explaining it to them. They hope that if it becomes too much trouble for you, maybe you will choose another provider.
Re: Hetzner
I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. I don't think Hetzner will give a damn if you're running a middleman. Especially if it's throttled, so you're not making them lose money on you. That's also my opinion. We also ran an exit node at Hetzner which lead to several discussions with their abuse people. One time the server simply was shut down and it took me days and much discussion to bring them to activate the network again. They have been very uncooperative all the time. As a consequence, we moved our services away from Hetzner. Bernhard All other ISPs (in Germany) will behave exactly the same way due to suppression from the state... Timo Note how that even after multiple abuse shutdowns, much discussion, eventual reactivation (thereby indicating that they understood that the alleged abuse did not originate from the customer), and a history of uncooperative behavior on their part: they still pretend that they have never heard of Tor. It looks like they just want people to waste time and energy explaining it to them. They hope that if it becomes too much trouble for you, maybe you will choose another provider. Maybe that this is the normal 'modus operandi'. There's lusers and geeks running TOR -- those get into that mode. Timo
Re: Hetzner
Hi! On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 04:40:09PM +0200, Sören Weber wrote: this morning I got a call from my hosting provider Hetzner (in Germany) and had a nice conversation with a guy who is handling the abuse mails. He wondered what was running on those 12 servers (that's a number he told me) which receive ~1 copyright-infringement mail per day. He just wanted to warn me (and I want to warn you ;-) about the fact that he wants to tell the management about the problems of these servers (high traffic, maybe bad image for the company); he says it'd be possible that Hetzner will forbid the use of TOR nodes by their policy. Did he mean any kind tor nodes or tor exits? He also asked for an in-depth explanation of TOR, which I just sent him. I tried to explain that his company's image could benefit from just acting for freedom of speech and against censorship (by not stopping TOR nodes). Hopefully that'll be heard. Hope so too. Perhaps also tell him about the role of tor in the recent uprises in the Iran. It's not that important yet as there are other providers out there, but that could start a trend, especially when put under pressure by the German government. Definitely. Greetings, Sören Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: Hetzner
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Hannah Schroeterhan...@pond.sub.org wrote: he says it'd be possible that Hetzner will forbid the use of TOR nodes by their policy. Did he mean any kind tor nodes or tor exits? I don't think that he had the knowledge about the differences of nodes. As far as he told me, he just contacted those people with a high amount of copyright infringements - so only exit nodes are the real problem for him. I tried to explain that his company's image could benefit from just acting for freedom of speech and against censorship (by not stopping TOR nodes). Hopefully that'll be heard. Hope so too. Perhaps also tell him about the role of tor in the recent uprises in the Iran. Thanks for that suggestion! I'll try to get this pointed out in the conversation. Greetings, Sören
Re: Hetzner
Hi! On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 05:11:36PM +0200, Sören Weber wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Hannah Schroeterhan...@pond.sub.org wrote: he says it'd be possible that Hetzner will forbid the use of TOR nodes by their policy. Did he mean any kind tor nodes or tor exits? I don't think that he had the knowledge about the differences of nodes. As far as he told me, he just contacted those people with a high amount of copyright infringements - so only exit nodes are the real problem for him. Ok, I understand. I tried to explain that his company's image could benefit from just acting for freedom of speech and against censorship (by not stopping TOR nodes). Hopefully that'll be heard. Hope so too. Perhaps also tell him about the role of tor in the recent uprises in the Iran. Thanks for that suggestion! I'll try to get this pointed out in the conversation. You're welcome. Greetings, Sören Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: Hetzner
Sören Weber soe...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Hannah Schroeterhan...@pond.sub.org wrote: he says it'd be possible that Hetzner will forbid the use of TOR nodes by their policy. Did he mean any kind tor nodes or tor exits? I don't think that he had the knowledge about the differences of nodes. As far as he told me, he just contacted those people with a high amount of copyright infringements - so only exit nodes are the real problem for him. Alleged copyright infringements. Fabian signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Hetzner
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Fabian Keilfreebsd-lis...@fabiankeil.de wrote: Alleged copyright infringements. Yes, of course. He stated that he doesn't believe that these mails are caused by the owners of the servers. Rather he thinks that Hetzner could lose its face in some way. Additionally these mails are semi-automatically processed, so they have to invest manpower to get them forwarded (I'd be happy if they would just throw them away. Same effect).
Re: Hetzner
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 08:28:47PM +0200, Sören Weber wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Fabian Keilfreebsd-lis...@fabiankeil.de wrote: Alleged copyright infringements. Yes, of course. He stated that he doesn't believe that these mails are caused by the owners of the servers. Rather he thinks that Hetzner could lose its face in some way. I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. I don't think Hetzner will give a damn if you're running a middleman. Especially if it's throttled, so you're not making them lose money on you. According to my last inquiry they won't log connection info (though this might have changed, check for yourself). Additionally these mails are semi-automatically processed, so they have to invest manpower to get them forwarded (I'd be happy if they would just throw them away. Same effect). -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: Hetzner
does anyone know about the legal situation in germany? i'm running a middle node. that should be no problem, isn't it? rg michael On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 08:28:47PM +0200, Sören Weber wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Fabian Keilfreebsd-lis...@fabiankeil.de wrote: Alleged copyright infringements. Yes, of course. He stated that he doesn't believe that these mails are caused by the owners of the servers. Rather he thinks that Hetzner could lose its face in some way. I've used to run a Tor exit with Hetzner a couple years ago, which resulted in several tet-a-tetes with the local (Bavaria) police. I don't think Hetzner will give a damn if you're running a middleman. Especially if it's throttled, so you're not making them lose money on you. According to my last inquiry they won't log connection info (though this might have changed, check for yourself). Additionally these mails are semi-automatically processed, so they have to invest manpower to get them forwarded (I'd be happy if they would just throw them away. Same effect). -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
Re: Hetzner
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jun 17, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Sören Weber wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Fabian Keilfreebsd-lis...@fabiankeil.de wrote: Alleged copyright infringements. Yes, of course. He stated that he doesn't believe that these mails are caused by the owners of the servers. Rather he thinks that Hetzner could lose its face in some way. Additionally these mails are semi-automatically processed, so they have to invest manpower to get them forwarded (I'd be happy if they would just throw them away. Same effect). Hi Sören, thanks for your efforts so far! It would be great if Hetzner learned a bit more about Tor, so if you want, you may point them in the direction of tor-assistants. There are a few Germans who would be able to talk to them, if you think they still have trouble understanding how Tor works. I think it would be a good idea to educate the hosting providers before they decide to dislike Tor. Thanks! Sebastian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iEYEARECAAYFAko51qkACgkQCADWu989zuaRPACg9kPJDHGZxIYQxKWdMJ0sR6A/ wBIAniNAx7gEe4uMdKQHGEeUE5NnSpH6 =Frl4 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
