Undercover Reporter Interviews Belgian Interior Minister on Muslim Extremism
Groot Bijgaarden Het Nieuwsblad in Dutch 19 Mar 05 p 4
[Interview with Interior Minister Patrick Dewael and Flemish Social
Integration Minister Marino Keulen by Hind Fraihi and Gunther Vanpraet,
place and date not given: "A Tougher Policy on All Marriages of
Convenience--Dewael and Keulen Break Taboos in the Migrant Debate"]
"Whenever a municipality refuses a marriage of convenience, from now on
it should immediately have to notify all other municipalities through the
national register. In this way, the people involved will be immediately
exposed if they go from one municipality to another to get married." That is
one of the three new measures being taken by Interior Minister Patrick
Dewael (VLD [Flemish Liberal Democrats]) against the attempts by some aliens
to obtain a residence permit in our country by means of a marriage of
convenience.
Federal Interior Minister Patrick Dewael (VLD) and Flemish Social
Integration Minister Marino Keulen (VLD) concede they have read the series
by our reporter Hind Fraihi in Molenbeek with great interest.
[Het Nieuwsblad] It is conspicuous that the average Fleming does not
know what should be done about Muslims. This is shown by the bulk of the
reactions to the "Undercover in Little Morocco" series.
[Patrick Dewael] We do not know each other sufficiently. That is the
result of the old policy that treated Muslims as a separate community. VLD
chairman Bart Somers has already urged ceasing to treat migrants as a
separate group. We must put an end to the flow of subsidies to youth and
sport clubs where, for example, only Islamic youth can come. The result is
that communities live next to each other instead of with each other. In the
past, we have not sufficiently encouraged Muslims to live together with us.
In Flanders we are now dotting our i's and crossing our t's: integration and
naturalization are a duty, although in an atmosphere of tolerance and
humanism. Our task is to see to it that there is something offered in the
field of naturalization, but we also note that the integration process does
not go smoothly because there is a trend within the Muslim community that
does not accept women's rights and naturalization. We must make it clear we
do not put up with that.
On the other hand, migrants also have to struggle against discrimination
in the job market. I oppose a quota system, but it is a fact that a Muslim
with a university diploma has one-sixth the chance of getting a job than a
native. We score much lower than other European countries.
[Marino Keulen] I am pleased that this week the Association of Christian
Employers (VKW) once again called on its business leader members to use
talent in the migrant community.
Muslim Executive Useless
[Het Nieuwsblad] Is there a difference in mentality between Flemish and
Wallonian politicians in the debate over migrants?
[Dewael] We are farther in Flanders, there are fewer taboos.
[Het Nieuwsblad] What has the Muslim Executive done so far? No one can
tell us.
[Keulen] The Muslims are very disappointed in the Muslim Executive,
which has not succeeded in being representative for its voters. I hope that
this time it will indeed be representative. That is important to us because
the executive must become a contact point for everything having to do with
Islam. We have made every kind of appeal to mobilize people and inform them
about their registration for the elections. As it looks now, things are
going much better than with the last elections. But we must wait to see
whether there will be new (genuine) leaders. There is certainly a need.
[Dewael] Apart from the elections, it is important to conduct a debate
as in France over the headscarf. My position as that anyone in an official
function, and this is once again the important principle of separation of
church and state, must renounce religious symbols. The Flemish Parliament
must consider a general rule in public education for the neutrality of
education. Schools must have the same approach to the headscarf, including
for students. Everyone must be able to take part in gymnastics and swimming
classes with the same clothing.
I want integration, not assimilation, and that means respect for
fundamental principles. Forced marriages and marriages of convenience must
not be tolerated, because in that case I feel there is a wrongful omission.
Under the incorrect pretense of tolerance, the women's movement has stood
aloof in this debate for much too long. Most of the municipalities are
already very vigilant and refuse many marriages, which the CD and V
[Christian Democrats and Flemish] also calls for. But we are going to adopt
three extra measures against marriages of convenience. The first is to make
them liable to punishment (there is now only a refusal, no prosecution),
then informing all municipalities of the denied marriages through the
national register, and thirdly we also plan to introduce financial
guarantees. Someone who comes here to get married must be able to provide
for their income after a certain time so that the state is not saddled with
them.
People Must Have Work
[Het Nieuwsblad] Many Flemings were surprised by what we wrote about
Molenbeek last week. Has there been silence too long about a number of
problems, including by politicians?
[Keulen] For the last 10 years the whole debate was burdened by cliches
and taboos. A sort of silence came about while the problems in this area
festered. Now, a number of issues can indeed be named and talked about.
Today, the immigrants are on the wrong side of the statistics. In Belgium,
two out of three immigrants are unemployed. There is an over-concentration
of immigrants in vocational training in particular. Immigrants still have a
low presence in model professions like teachers and police officers, and are
totally absent in the so-called success occupations. Where do you see the
immigrant judge, the immigrant professor? We must see to it that the
statistics improve. The current change of style in Flanders is that we have
abandoned the pure welfare approach that, for example, right away puts
immigrant women in the role of victims. Our attitude has been: Have another
generation of patience and then everything will be in order. We must give
people opportunities and talk to them about their responsibility. If we
organize language courses, they must actually attend them.
I note that this process is also supported by a large group of
immigrants. They are advocates of staying the course. What I note from the
series "Undercover in Little Morocco" is the call of moderate Muslims to
distance themselves from extremists. When we talk about radicalism we are
talking about isolated groups, and as the government you must assume your
responsibility. People can have their own opinion, but once the freedom and
security of a society are threatened then the government must act. The best
way to combat extremism is to counter marginalization. We must ensure that
people have work, that young people can get a sound education. But the
government is not the only one that has duties, the parents do as well.
[Dewael] We brought the migrants here earlier, but then the job market
got tight. The migration flows to Europe then stopped. But Belgian employers
once again want a sort of economic migration to be possible because they
already have a number of openings in some professions.
Migration Necessary Once Again
[Het Nieuwsblad] Are people thinking about a new economic migration
while there are still migrants without work and a good education here and
there are 452,000 unemployed people in our country?
[Dewael] We must first invest in people who are already here. But if you
look at the demographic challenge facing the European Union, it is senseless
to make Europe a fortress. All competitive economies throughout the world
have not viewed the necessity of economic migration that way. We must agree
that part of the education or language teaching will take place in the
country of origin. That there is reception and support, and the situation
cannot continue as before: just come to Europe and then we will see. But
first the asylum rules must be synchronized. That must be done starting in
2010, and then the Commission will quickly produce reports on the necessity
of limited economic migration.
[Keulen] Employers organizations must be able to prove that the manpower
is not available here. There are far too many bottleneck occupations in this
country, the so-called old crafts like plasterers. We must mobilize people
for such work and have them assume the responsibility. And we must encourage
unemployed people to enter the bottleneck occupations because everyone must
contribute to society.
[Het Nieuwsblad] Are we taking enough measures against terrorism?
[Dewael] Yes, but within the limits of our constitutional state. I am
not going to put a police officer on every street corner. Belgium is not
going to be a police state. If we do that, then the terrorists have already
won before they set off a single bomb. Our democracy with then falter, as in
the United States and Great Britain. If someone must be taken into custody,
that always happens with the intervention of an examining magistrate. A pool
of such magistrates are becoming specialized in combating terrorism. That is
new. The national security police will also be able to eavesdrop in the near
future.
[Het Nieuwsblad] There is an impression that there is a tougher approach
to Flemish extremism than to Muslim extremism. Are you now taking the
extremist books in Molenbeek that among other things call for killing all
Jews?
[Dewael] Under the previous legislature there was already a Mosque
action plan, for mosques, preachers, and culture centers. We have already
kept fundamentalist speakers outside of Belgium's borders and a large number
of cases have been thwarted. The action plan goes into effect whenever a law
is violated. For example, democracy lets me say that I do not like
democracy, but I cannot say that all Jews must be annihilated. Anti-Semitic
and racist statements that can disturb public order are a violation of the
law. The police can then act. The Mosque action plan has now been broadened
to the Radicalism action plan because extremism is certainly not limited to
Muslims.
People are wrong to think the antiterrorism services are doing nothing.
If the security services are following cases inadequately, then that is when
the citizen's role comes in. Someone who has knowledge of a criminal offense
must report it. But there a legal point of departure must often be sought as
to where the right to free expression of opinion in a democracy begins and
where it ends.
[Het Nieuwsblad] Not everyone agrees with the plan to subsidize mosques.
[Keulen] The acceptance of subsidies, for whichever faith, means we can
exercise a certain control over what happens in churches or mosques or
temples. At present we know too little. Some services tell me there are 195
mosques in Flanders, others speak of 162. Islam has been recognized for a
long time already, it is only fair for it to have just as many rights and
duties as other faiths. We are initially talking about a small number of
mosques that are being recognized. We then anticipate mandatory
naturalization for immigrant imams, and in the long run even Flemish
institutes for imams. That way you obtain imams who are embedded in Flemish
society.
[Het Nieuwsblad] Is Patrick Dewael hard enough for the VLD's supporters,
who expect a hard approach from "their" interior minister?
[Dewael] I am frequently attacked in the Parliament for being too tough
in, for example, deporting foreigners who do not gain asylum. Others
possibly find me too soft. I am consistent and am succeeding in implementing
the government's program. A unanimous VLD congress has approved it. Hugo
Coveliers was the only one to abstain.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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