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On 2013-07-22 11:47, J Oliver wrote:
Hi all,
Where can I find the code for tabread4? Does someone have any
lights on how this interpolation is implemented?
$ cd src/git/pure-data/src/
$ grep -l tabread4 *.c
d_array.c
$ vi d_array.c
then
- -
thanks!
J
On Jul 22, 2013, at 12:06 PM, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
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On 2013-07-22 11:47, J Oliver wrote:
Hi all,
Where can I find the code for tabread4? Does someone have any
lights on how this interpolation is implemented?
$ cd
On 22/07/13 10:47, J Oliver wrote:
Where can I find the code for tabread4?
Does someone have any lights on how this interpolation is implemented?
See also this (quite long) thread:
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2010-03/077278.html
Claude
--
http://mathr.co.uk
Right! I remember it now, so:
a Lagrange interpolator
J
On Jul 22, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Claude Heiland-Allen wrote:
On 22/07/13 10:47, J Oliver wrote:
Where can I find the code for tabread4?
Does someone have any lights on how this interpolation is implemented?
See also this (quite long)
There is some inbuilt limit to array sizes that needs to be overridden by
using the -maxsize tag when loading a file from soundfiler.
I have a feeling it might mess things up with GOP arrays if you use that.
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Hi,
On 24/07/12 03:55, Alexandre Torres Porres wrote:
Ok, as long as we're on it, here's another thing I found while
patching around. Probably related to the last crazy behaviour I just
described, but something on its own.
It is simpler than phase vocoding, it's just something weird about
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On 2012-07-24 09:34, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
This is a known limitation with [tabread4~] and [tabread~] and pops
up every now and then [1] (it could probably be useful to mention
it in [tabread~] help).
it is mentioned in the help-patch for
On 24/07/12 12:00, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
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On 2012-07-24 09:34, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
This is a known limitation with [tabread4~] and [tabread~] and pops
up every now and then [1] (it could probably be useful to mention
it in [tabread~] help).
Charles Henry escribió:
The hardest class I ever had was stochastic analysis (as recent as 4
years ago), where we solved problems like this. Fundamentally, it's
not too hard, but the details of the calculus are tricky. I'd prefer
to stay away unless there's a real good reason to do so :)
You're trying to restrict the analysis to a convenient (but reasonable)
class of signals, and to assume that the signal to be interpolated, x,
belongs to that class. Right?
Well, sort of. What works well as an interpolator for one signal may
not work well for another. The point I started
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com wrote:
It occurs to me that there exists one very obvious function for which
the squared error is minimized for a 4-point interpolator. 4-point
interpolator impulse functions have to be 0 outside the interval
Charles Henry escribió:
The error depends on x the signal. Here, I want to make the
*convenient* assumption that the spectrum of x is flat, since we want
some kind of generality and we want to minimize average error across
frequencies. This would make the problem equivalent to using just
I get what you're saying too, and I'm at least a little skeptical
myself. But as I think about it generally, my entire approach to
looking at these problems has been very similar.
I basically thought that when comparing interpolators, I could
disregard the signals involved and just look at the
Charles Henry escribió:
When it comes to the general class of functions with flat spectra, the
only difference is in phase, right?
But the error is the same in time domain as in frequency domain thanks
to the isometric property of the Fourier transform. Our interpolation
is the same as a
I don't know either. We have the formulas for each, so we can
calculate squared error vs. sinc(x), but there also appears to be
differences in which frequencies the distortion occurs and some could
be more audible.
It occurs to me that there exists one very obvious function for which
the
It occurs to me that there exists one very obvious function for which
the squared error is minimized for a 4-point interpolator. 4-point
interpolator impulse functions have to be 0 outside the interval
[-2,2].
So,
E=|f(x)-sinc(x)|^2 is minimized when
f(x)={sinc(x) -2x2 ,0 elsewhere
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 21:06 -0400, Matt Barber wrote:
LONG, sorry.
Thanks again for your time and patience.
One really good way to think, then, is in terms of the continuous
frequency response of the interpolator. In that long, long discussion
a couple years ago, Chuck Henry made the
Is it really possible to express a cubic interpolator (such as Lagrange
or Hermite, i.e. such as tabread4 or tabread4c) in terms of impulse
response? Is it equivalent to a convolution? That is to ask: is it linear???
Or is that an approximation?
--
Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com
So to me
it still remains unclear in what aspect [tabread4~] is superior
to [tabread4c~], from both a theoretical and from an empirical
perspective.
The answer may be here:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=8151
Btw does anybody have access to that article?
The analysis reveals an
Now regarding Matt's words:
I have read that the Lagrange interpolators have better stopband
attenuation and Hermites have flatter passband response, but I'm not
sure this is true
Is it possible that it is exactly viceversa?
I think it probably is exactly vice-versa -- I was quoting
Yes, as far as I know it's identical -- when you do one of these
interpolations with four points, you can either think of it in terms
of a cubic polynomial formula involving those four points, or in terms
of the sum of four scaled basis functions - the latter seems to me
intuitively equivalent to
On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 14:15 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
However, even in presence of a tradeoff that makes some sense (i.e. each
of the two choices has advantages and disadvantages), it seems to me
that for audio applications the generated high-frequency noise due to
discontinuities
Roman Haefeli escribió:
On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 14:15 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
However, even in presence of a tradeoff that makes some sense (i.e. each
of the two choices has advantages and disadvantages), it seems to me
that for audio applications the generated high-frequency noise due
i think this pdf can add lot's of useful information to this thread :
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~oniemita/dsp/deip.pdf
cyrille
Matteo Sisti Sette a écrit :
Roman Haefeli escribió:
On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 14:15 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
However, even in presence of a tradeoff that
Matt Barber escribió:
Yes, as far as I know it's identical -- when you do one of these
interpolations with four points, you can either think of it in terms
of a cubic polynomial formula involving those four points, or in terms
of the sum of four scaled basis functions - the latter seems to me
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
Mathieu Bouchard escribió:
both are truly cubic interpolations.
IIRC, one kind of cubic interpolation is designed to go through all four
points, and the other kind is designed to be pieced with other cubic
interpolations, and Miller confused the
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com wrote:
Matt Barber escribió:
Yes, as far as I know it's identical -- when you do one of these
interpolations with four points, you can either think of it in terms
of a cubic polynomial formula involving those four
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 13:49 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
Claude wrote:
If you use [tabread4] to interpolate graphical
parameters for animations, the discontinuities in the derivatives are
really obvious.
[]
But IMHO if you're doing piecewise cubic interpolation, it's a bit
Roman Haefeli escribió:
Check this thread:
http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2008-06/062878.html
I checked it out (not read the _whole_ thread to the end) but,
In what way can the current tabread4~ interpolation, which is
discontinuous even in its 1st derivative, be superior to
By the way tabread4c~ is not in Pd Extended, is it?
Roman Haefeli escribió:
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 13:49 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
Claude wrote:
If you use [tabread4] to interpolate graphical
parameters for animations, the discontinuities in the derivatives are
really obvious.
Hi all-
I haven't looked at Cyrille's interpolator but... tabread4~ uses true cubic
interpolation (which perhaps Cyrille's object also does in some other way).
The tabread4~ algorithm is to put a cubic through the 4 points surrounding
the input point. However, this cubic curve does not
Matteo Sisti Sette a écrit :
By the way tabread4c~ is not in Pd Extended, is it?
no.
it is there :
http://www.chnry.net/ch/?083-Nusmuk-audio
c
Roman Haefeli escribió:
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 13:49 +0200, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
Claude wrote:
If you use [tabread4] to interpolate
cyrille henry escribió:
Matteo Sisti Sette a écrit :
By the way tabread4c~ is not in Pd Extended, is it?
no. it is there : http://www.chnry.net/ch/?083-Nusmuk-audio
Hi,
I downloaded the zip file but Windows tells me he can't open it.
Is it something different than a normal .zip file?
(it
Miller Puckette escribió:
The tabread4~ algorithm is to put a cubic through the 4 points surrounding
the input point. However, this cubic curve does not necessarily match the
next curve over in first derivative.
Oh I see! I thought it did. I confuded that technique with natural cubic
The link works and extracts fine here in WinXP SP3. I used the built-in
compressed (zipped) folders tool in the explorer shell.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Matteo Sisti Sette
matteosistise...@gmail.com wrote:
cyrille henry escribió:
Matteo Sisti Sette a écrit :
By the way
John Harrison escribió:
The link works and extracts fine here in WinXP SP3. I used the built-in
compressed (zipped) folders tool in the explorer shell.
Crazy.
Internet Explorer breaks downloaded files whenever it takes you more
than a few seconds to select the folder to download in. I
Mathieu Bouchard escribió:
both are truly cubic interpolations.
IIRC, one kind of cubic interpolation is designed to go through all four
points, and the other kind is designed to be pieced with other cubic
interpolations, and Miller confused the two and left the bug there.
According to his
I checked it out (not read the _whole_ thread to the end) but, In what
way can the current tabread4~ interpolation, which is discontinuous even
in its 1st derivative, be superior to true cubic interpolation? Even at
transpositions near to zero, I can't see what's the advantage, nor what
it
Hi Matt
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I still have troubles getting the
idea of the Lagrange interpolator in the context of [tabread4~]. You
say, that it finds the cubic polynomial which hits all four points. But
what is the advantage of that? As I understand [tabread4~], if the index
is
LONG, sorry.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Roman Haefeli reduzie...@yahoo.de wrote:
Hi Matt
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I still have troubles getting the
idea of the Lagrange interpolator in the context of [tabread4~]. You
say, that it finds the cubic polynomial which hits all
David McCarthy wrote:
hello
Im trying to re-create something like traktor dj program on pd using
tabread4~
Coming up against that problem when you use big soundfiles (a kind of
bit depth distortion)
Wondering has anyone found a solution for this?
[tabread4~~]
(currently part of zexy,
i posted a workaround the other day. using vline~ and a fast metro.
attached again to this mail
metro-phasor~.pd
Description: Binary data
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
I am definately no expert in this area, but this guy and his ideas
always fascinated me as an alternative to Euclidean geometry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemannian_manifold
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
To split hairs, we want to constrain the total energy in mixing
signals, which means we have to expand the inner product.
I mentioned convex spaces possibly because you can deform your space so
that you don't have to do it with the inner product. If
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
On the signals level, we could have a non-linear manifold in a Hilbert
space. Sets of functions with constant total energy and identical
pitch, for example. Then, psychoacoustics represents the map of this
space into timbre space (a psychological
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:50:04 -0500 (EST)
Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Functions with constant total energy are a convex space. This is like a
linear space except it changes one rule: in a vector space, if a,b are
scalars and x,y are vectors, then ax+by is a vector. In a convex
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007, Andy Farnell wrote:
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:50:04 -0500 (EST)
Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Functions with constant total energy are a convex space. This is like a
linear space except it changes one rule: in a vector space, if a,b are
scalars and x,y are vectors,
On Sun, Dec 23, 2007 at 10:54:51PM +, Andy Farnell wrote:
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:50:04 -0500 (EST)
Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Functions with constant total energy are a convex space. This is like a
linear space except it changes one rule: in a vector space, if a,b are
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
When I look at that previous post, I realize that the notation/concepts
were confusing at the least, and abusive at the worst. It's not an easy
topic to work with. A more concrete example: we could take a trumpt and
violin, two instruments with
to my relief, there was something in this thread that i understood :)
and they're fun too, the little buzzers. thanks for sharing.
cheers, robbert
Charles Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
when I started using pd, I tried to
make some complex tones, where I could shift the partials around while
On Dec 2, 2007 11:52 PM, Charles Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would consider this function and its translations to be a convenient
basis for the set of continuous band-limited compact functions.
It is mainly useful because it allows this sampling property. If we
sample the function on
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Patrice Colet wrote:
Symmetric chords has as much tones as it has notes, diminished chords,
has four fundamentals, also a minor seven chord might be relative with
three major scales, and we have the choice between different chords with
the same bunch of notes. eg: A C E G
Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
No, we were thinking specifically about close detunings, all those
intervals that are confused with a much simpler interval, and usually,
which *should* be confused. It's the basis of logarithmic temperaments:
2^(7/12) is over 0.1% off from 3/2, and that's one of
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
The theory (dynamical systems/pitch) is actually good for this too.
There is a slight pitch shift when the frequency ratios become slightly
detuned, but the overall fundamental produced is reliable under
detuning.
In a nutshell, how does it work?
The problem with my examples, which I thought were bad was that
sometimes, I was using x(t) and y(t) as if they were signals, which
can be added and subtracted, and sometimes as vectors as functions of
time in an abstract timbre space.
Some of the presumed dimensions of timbre are things like
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
I suppose my comment was leakage of some of my thoughts about my own
musical production and how ultimately burned-out I've become from
over-intellectualized sound design. My main concern is that when people
get so far into mathematizing music there
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
So you're saying that if someone makes good art and they are ignorant,
then we should take their lead and try to be more ignorant?
Exactly. The more you use your mind, the more you single yourself out.
Because everybody always needs more friends
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
First off, we need a loose definition of timbre--timbre is the quality
by which two sounds may be distinguished, where pitch, loudness, and
onset time are the same. (in terms of signals, we have just described
a non-linear space in the first place {
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
there is one element per possible axis). This could be called R[x]/R+ or
R[x]/R respectively. Also, this could be called spherical space and
projective spherical space, respectively.
Everywhere where I said R[x], please replace by R^N, which is
Hello, I'd like to add some 0.5 cents experiment...
Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
Yes, but there is evidence for the fundamental bass that occurs
between pairs of notes, with a strength dependent on those ratios.
Complex harmonies could have
On Nov 23, 2007 7:15 AM, Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007, Uur Güney wrote:
An example of sound producing mechanism is
plucked and vibrating string (or vibrating membrane) It is a continuum
and so has infinite dimensions.
It's not because it's a continuum,
I feel absolutely certain that I can convince you that timbre is *not* a
vector space, using only the defining properties of a vector space.
Ok, let's do that. How do you prove it?
With another little thought experiment. If I can't convince you, I'll
eat my words (yum)
First off, we need
On Nov 22, 2007 11:55 PM, Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
Yes, but there is evidence for the fundamental bass that occurs between
pairs of notes, with a strength dependent on those ratios. Complex
harmonies could have multiple
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Uur Güney wrote:
And she said that: A simple harmonic oscillator makes a 1D motion (in
time). It goes back and forth. You can approximate a string as N
connected harmonic oscillator lying along a line. if N goes to infinity
we'll have a SHO at every point in space, which
On Nov 23, 2007 10:16 AM, Charles Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I feel absolutely certain that I can convince you that timbre is *not* a
vector space, using only the defining properties of a vector space.
Ok, let's do that. How do you prove it?
With another little thought experiment.
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007, Uur Güney wrote:
But the musical data of composition (in the mind of the composer), or
the sound producing mechanisms are not one dimensional. The composer
builds its ideas not on one dimensional space but she has structures
which may have certain hiyerarchies or
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
Yes, but there is evidence for the fundamental bass that occurs between
pairs of notes, with a strength dependent on those ratios. Complex
harmonies could have multiple fundamentals. It's a mystery to me how
harmony/rhythm work at a fundamental
On Tue, 20 Nov 2007, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Uhm, just the fact that the majority of musicians don't even know what
topology is, yet their music still sounds great, is enough for me to
believe your conjecture.
Most musicians don't use pd. What does that mean about the usefulness of
pd?
You
On 21 Nov 2007, at 3:47 AM, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
You can get lost in the mathematics and never be able to communicate
with an audience of anyone but geeks (self included). Music is
communication, so as musicians we have a responsibility to communicate
in a language that is understood by our
Uhm, just the fact that the majority of musicians don't even know what
topology is, yet their music still sounds great, is enough for me to
believe your conjecture. All this maths talk reminds me about why I've
started playing a lot more guitar and focusing on
content/lyrics/melody in music.
You
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007, Chris McCormick wrote:
On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 01:02:16PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Anyway: I don't quite approve of the use of a double-tilde, which was my
reason for the joke in the first place.
In your opinion, what is a better way of textually representing a
On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 10:47:06AM -0600, Kyle Klipowicz wrote:
Uhm, just the fact that the majority of musicians don't even know what
topology is, yet their music still sounds great, is enough for me to
believe your conjecture. All this maths talk reminds me about why I've
started playing a
I can see how what I said may have been interpreted as being against
the discussion, which I'm not. This list is a place for all sorts of
dorkiness and that's fine.
I suppose my comment was leakage of some of my thoughts about my own
musical production and how ultimately burned-out I've become
Hello again,
here's the -help file, as i promised.
(My apologies to Miller Puckette for stealing the -help files style.. :-))
***
#N canvas 354 145 966 694 12;
#X obj 12 615 output~;
#X obj 12 432
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
You won't be able to find those low frequencies like 4 Hz, unless one of
your instruments contains them, like drums for example.
I don't mean frequencies of sine waves, I mean frequency of any kind of
periodicity that is found.
Percussion
On Nov 19, 2007 11:06 PM, Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
I don't mean frequencies of sine waves, I mean frequency of any kind of
periodicity that is found.
Yes, I was sure you knew what you were talking about. I just had to
jump on it, and
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Steffen Juul wrote:
~~
What does appending a tilde mean?
From the first post i thought is was just slang for 'this is really
a tilde object that does it's thing right' as in underlining. After
that the thread took a direction into discussion about time and space/
On Sun, Nov 18, 2007 at 01:02:16PM -0500, Mathieu Bouchard wrote:
Anyway: I don't quite approve of the use of a double-tilde, which was my
reason for the joke in the first place.
In your opinion, what is a better way of textually representing a
[tabread4~] that uses two signals to index a
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Ypatios Grigoriadis wrote:
If i may now borrow the theory and terminus Arrow of time by Arthur
Eddington, according to which time is the fourth dimension in space,
Afaik, Arthur Eddington made the first English translation of Einstein.
This is probably what got him in
Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Ypatios Grigoriadis wrote:
If i may now borrow the theory and terminus Arrow of time by Arthur
Eddington, according to which time is the fourth dimension in space,
Afaik, Arthur Eddington made the first English translation of Einstein.
Patrice Colet a écrit :
Mathieu Bouchard a écrit :
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Ypatios Grigoriadis wrote:
If i may now borrow the theory and terminus Arrow of time by Arthur
Eddington, according to which time is the fourth dimension in space,
Afaik, Arthur Eddington made the first English
reprise, beat and such, are just larger scale splittings of the time
dimension in the same way that frequency separates from time. Reprises and
beats and rhythms are full of periodic patterns, just like the sound waves
themselves, but at a different scale, which doesn't make the physical ear
On Nov 17, 2007 3:16 AM, Charles Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We structure events in
music as a function of time.
f: R (time) - (set of possible sound events)
The topology in this case is clear. It's a line, and music is a
function mapping 1-D into the space of all possible sounds.
we
On 15/11/2007, Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Charles Henry wrote:
Zen master Dogen tells us that we say time is passing because we live in
time. In fact, we are passing in time, and time stays exactly where it
is.
time seen as the 4th space dimension is
~~
What does appending a tilde mean?
From the first post i thought is was just slang for 'this is really
a tilde object that does it's thing right' as in underlining. After
that the thread took a direction into discussion about time and space/
dimensions.
Btw. Late (as in not younger)
What they are doing is increasing the accuracy of reading samples from
a large table, using 2 32-bit floats, instead of just one.
This [line~~] is a function of time, mapping time onto a 1-D path in the plane.
Tabread4~ works by pointer arithmetic. My guess what happens is, you
add the first
On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Ed Kelly wrote:
matju wrote:
Whether time moves or stays exactly where it is is a metaphysical
question: you can't make an experiment that distinguishes the two
possibilities. Thus it's just a matter of how we explain things to
ourselves.
There is some evidence of time's
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
no problem at all. [line~~] and [vline~~] will all come when the time is
ripe. and probably they will move from zexy into iem~~ :-)
[line~~] will come when the time becomes two-dimensional.
Even in a Many-Worlds Interpretation of (meta)physics,
On Nov 14, 2007 1:25 PM, Mathieu Bouchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, IOhannes m zmoelnig wrote:
no problem at all. [line~~] and [vline~~] will all come when the time is
ripe. and probably they will move from zexy into iem~~ :-)
[line~~] will come when the time becomes
by the way, can anyone provide some insight as to how/why the
tabread4~ interpolation scheme was chosen in the first place?
(I have a pretty good notion from looking at Taylor series expansions
of G(w), but I'm still not sure what we would use for design criteria,
if we wanted to extend tabread4~)
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