G'day Barkley,
You write:
Actually it was the Chinese who first figured
out how to use gunpowder to make guns and
cannons.
Whoops! Guess that shows I didn't go to a good highschool ...
The technology diffused westwards.
And quickly! I see the Poms were loosing 'bombards' (cannon) at
At 13:38 22/09/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
Jim Devine:
But I'd like to know why you think that the Solidarity group violated
Marxist principles in their position on E. Timor. I believe that they back
the principle of the right of self-determination of nations, including the
independence of E.
Dear Penners,
My name if Hiroto Tsukada, a Professor of Economics at
Yamaguchi University, Japan. (Visiting UK till next
January, at University of Kent at Canterbury.)
I am studying now on globalisation's influences on
mentality of people. My intention is to use it as an
evidence for the
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Where should leftists stand on the push by activists in Seattle demanding
that the WTO have stronger labor rights enforcement provisions? Are these
demands the product of imperialist plots to make certain countries, i.e.
China, less able
I'd like to say that while I can't follow every twist and turn in the
argument about Europe and the periphery, I am appreciating this thread
(when it stays on track).
But a question. For a different topic I am citing estimates of long-run
industrial output by Bairoch, as well as those by Angus
Jim, I think this passage exemplifies the fundamental difference between
your and my position on the subject. I am an empirical scientist, not an
erudite, I am concerned with emprical facts, not their interepretations in
the literature. The empirical fact is that countries that benefited
Brad is correct that we all do not need to work on every issue. Maybe he
can
tell us more about Primus's study. Does he come up with anything new?
Brad De Long wrote:
It's on the web at http://www.cbpp.org/8-22-99wel.htm
It's an important paper, the first to signal with empirical
evidence
I think that we can let this rest for a while.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
Brad is correct that we all do not need to work on every issue. Maybe he can
tell us more about Primus's study. Does he come up with anything new?
Basically that people kicked off of welfare think that they are no
longer eligible for food stamps (even though they are)--and that the
state
Brad is correct that we all do not need to work on every issue. Maybe he
can
tell us more about Primus's study. Does he come up with anything new?
Brad De Long wrote:
It's on the web at http://www.cbpp.org/8-22-99wel.htm
It's an important paper, the first to signal with empirical
evidence
Jim B. writes:
I don't think there was an agricultural revolution in England. There was
agricultural EVOlution in harmony with other changes taking place, but not
as [a]n important causal force.
Now that's an interesting position. There was no AgRev in the UK? To means
that there was no
Jim Devine wrote:
the limits of
empiricism. Empiricists are great at finding information, but that's
different from understanding it.
I don't know whether this is a question that can be fruitfully explored
on a maillist or not, but I want to raise it in isolation from the origins
question
The way we learn is more complicated that that. We are constantly moving
back forth from "facts" to "theory", or if you prefer from the concrete to
the abstract. Any one you attempts to "theorise" without information, is
engaged in a dream world (is an idealist). We need both. It is a mistake
At 11:51 AM 9/23/99 -0400, Max Sawicky wrote:
WS: . . . You also dismiss my argument that you may not have sufficient
empirical evidence to sort out effects of different variables by simply
calling it "babble." Well, my friend, if you ran a multiple regression with
twelve variables plus
At 12:41 PM 9/23/99 -0400, Max Sawicky wrote:
I don't understand why it's not possible to think that the
combination of internal changes within Europe plus imperialism
combined to produce capitalism as we know it. Why is such a
passionate matter of either/or dispute?
Doug
Looks to me like
On 22 Sep 99, at 8:36, Chris Burford wrote:
It is quite true that the reformatory strategies under consideration are in
themselves inadequate, partial and limited. Like all reforms they have a
dialectical dual aspect - they may help the onward process of change, or
they may restabilise the
Jim, D. writes:
Being empirically-oriented is not the same thing as being an empiricist.
I like to think of it this way: Empiricism is not the same thing as taking
an historical approach. The former carries the baggage of definite
ontological and epistemological commitments that the latter
This is truly offensive. Even if one disagrees with the proposition that
slavery or the slave trade played a primary role in the rise and development
of capitalism, the insensitivity required to spout this is really
mind-boggling. Really sad. It is probably way past due time for me to
depart
Apologies to Michael P. for continuing here.
But I suspect that he is willing to tolerate a continuation
if it is done at a lower key and less flamey level. Unless,
that is, what he really wants is for the list to shut down
temporarily while we all buy copies of his book and
prepare for
"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
Is it not true that the enclosure movement was going on
at least as early as the Elizabethan period in the 1500s
in England?
Thomas More's *Utopia* (1515) contains a polemic against the
barbarism of enclosures (driving out men to make room for sheep).
Is it not true that the enclosure movement was going on
at least as early as the Elizabethan period in the 1500s
in England? Somehow I remember reading something
to that effect somewhere, but I don't remember where.
If Marx is to be a guide, the "prelude to the revolution that laid the
I'm going to return to Brenner after I've had a chance to review some of
his articles from the Columbia Library. I will say one thing now that sort
of helps me put him into a framework. In a footnote in Blaut's book,
Brenner is cited in Roemer's collection "Analytical Marxism" which rang a
bell
-Original Message-
From: Strahan, Elson
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 10:45 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; Craven, Jim
Cc: Witte, Marjan
Subject: Center for Columbia River History
Hello -
Hope things are going well for you. I received a call and a fax from
Doug:
Oh, I laughed between squirms too. The violence was so extraordinary
it was hard to know how to take it. The gender politics of the movie
were quite strange - there were only two women of any consequence in
the cast, and both were near-mute ciphers
Some HK films have a quite
Mathew Forstater wrote:
Jim, D. writes:
Being empirically-oriented is not the same thing as being an empiricist.
I like to think of it this way: Empiricism is not the same thing as taking
an historical approach. The former carries the baggage of definite
ontological and epistemological
How could a petty ideologist ever keep up with a daring theoretician such
as the charming Max S.?
Michael Perelman
Dear kindly Officer Perelman,
You gotta understand,
It's just my bringing up-ke
That get's me out of hand.
My mother was idealist,
My dad collected facts,
Holy Lenin, natcherly
At the risk of Michael's wrath I will ask Jim B. one more question. Why do
you insist on translating "different" into "superior." Is it for the
emotional charge that it gives your argument?
Rod
Rod Hay
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The History of Economic Thought Archives
One wonders if Levitt's been reading Peter Albin.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/financial/092499market-sec.html
September 23, 1999
S.E.C. Chief Wants One Site for Posting Stock Prices
By GRETCHEN MORGENSON
he chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission proposed a system
Thursday for
I sympathize with Jim B. and everyone else who has become frustrated with
this the participants displayed pen-l at its best. Now, it has
degenerated. For that reason, I called for an end.
Everybody wants to get in the last word, so it goes on.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Yoshie was kind enough to forward Lou P's _City on Fire_ report to
Doug H's lbo list. Below is post I sent to that list. Michael Hoover
Lisa Stokes and I had the pleasure of meeting Doug H and his wife in NYC
last weekend and it was great to finally do so after years of e-mail. I
have much
How could a petty ideologist ever keep up with a daring theoretician such
as the charming Max S.?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Louis Proyect wrote:
I'm going to return to Brenner after I've had a chance to review some of
his articles from the Columbia Library. I will say one thing now that sort
of helps me put him into a framework. In a footnote in Blaut's book,
Brenner is cited in Roemer's collection "Analytical
I just wrote to say that I agreed with Carrol. Rod is correct as well. I
guess that is why they call it dialectics.
Rod Hay wrote:
The way we learn is more complicated that that. We are constantly moving
back forth from "facts" to "theory", or if you prefer from the concrete to
the
Sam,
I agree with your argument. Now I wonder if anyone can make a decent
argument against it without calling you Eurocentric or _?
I might add, I found the recent article written by Ellen Wood, whom the
anti-Eurocentrics would surely castigate as "Eurocentric", on 'The New
Yes, Carrol. You are correct, at least in part. Also, the tone was
deteriorating. It was sounding like: "You son of a bitch why can't you accept
my source as unimpeachable ..."
Carrol Cox wrote:
(I think the features of the thread which led to Michael's suggestion
that it was exhausted
Well, I don't know when the enclosures started,
but I know that the wool industry was a big deal
in England going back to at least the 1200s with
well off merchants associated with it, well off enough
to have brasses on their graves in country churches
in any case (many of which were
Louis Proyect wrote:
Hong Kong twin bill at the Anthology of Film Archives
In the audience was Doug Henwood, who told me
that he had never seen a Hong Kong movie before. I assured him that he
would at least find the experience unforgettable. There would be no
mistaking John Woo's "Bullet
Re-reading Brenner's NLR 'critique of neo-smithian approaches' paper
last night, I was struck by the theoretical nature of the argument. Not
too much about agriculture in England. He argues that Sweezy,
Wallerstein and Frank are in essence repeating Smith's argument that the
growth of
. . . .
But Max, for example, seems to think that this whole issue of Eurocentrism
is just *so-o-o-o-o* foolish. . . .
Hey hey HEY hey hey hey. There is Eurocentrism the
inadequate mode of analysis, what I take to be a
substantive theme in the thread, and one that I
agreed a while back is
Sam writes:
... Pre-capitalist societies like feudalism or
"asiatic"/"tributary" modes remained stagnant because of low
productivity. The surplus that was created, through extra-economic
coercion, was squandered by the ruling class on temples, palaces and
churches instead of being plowed back
Louis Proyect wrote:
The question that needs addressing is not how and why feudalism in Europe
evolved into capitalism,
The problem for Marxists is how to evaluate the spread of EUROPEAN
capitalism into NON-EUROPEAN pre-capitalist societies.
These two statements amount to much the same
right, wojtek, your position of favoring internal factors is "scientific"
while one who through careful study reaches the tentative conclusion (always
subject to possible revision) that "external" factors are of primary
importance must subscribe to some "irrational" worldview of some kind.
After exchanging email with Michael Hoover for over three years, I finally
got a chance to meet him here in NYC this weekend. He was promoting his new
Verso book on Hong Kong cinema titled "City on Fire" along with co-author
Lisa Stokes.
Louis Proyect
A belated response to Lou's report
Max, I would also like to call attention to the religious aspect of it -
third worldism is a form of a messianistic cult of the kind that were
popular in the 19th century Europe (originating in the hegelian right, if
memory serves). Essentiaslly the idea was to self-portray a disadvantaged
It is of course possible, and any full explanation of the rise and
development of capitalism must include both "internal and "external"
factors. The question is the relative importance of these, but also TO WHAT
DEGREE AND TO WHAT EXTENT WHAT WE MAY THINK OF AS "INTERNAL" FACTORS ARE
LINKED TO
. . . Essentiaslly the idea was to self-portray a disadvantaged
nation or a group of people as the "messiah of nations" that is, a nation
whose suffering significantly contributes to the 'salvation' i.e.
prosperity of other nations. This way, disadvantaged groups could
vicariously overcome
Louis Proyect wrote:
II confess. I am not only an empiricist but a pragmatist.
The result of this is that whenever Lou's unconscious theory is adequate
(and it often is) he is able to make a rich selection of the relevant facts
and interpret them correctly -- that is, one might say, turn
Carrol wrote:
It seems to me that various forms of empiricism constitute a far more
serious repudiation of marxism than do the various fads called
"post structuralism," "post modernism," "deconstruction," etc.
Louis writes:
I confess. I am not only an empiricist but a pragmatist. When I
It seems to me that various forms of empiricism constitute a far more
serious repudiation of marxism than do the various fads called
"post structuralism," "post modernism," "deconstruction," etc.
Carrol
I confess. I am not only an empiricist but a pragmatist. When I worked in
Nicaragua, I
The pace and intensity of discussion at some points may have resulted in
some confusion about citations and the like. There are, as Ricardo states,
actually two Darity 1992 pieces: the one that I cited most (from _The
Atlantic Slave Trade_ edited by Inikori and Engerman) did not (because it
was
As someone who has worked on this issue for a long time and who is also
involved in preparing for the WTO actions in Nov/Dec, I am at risk of getting
drawn into this thread. I'll try to put out a few thoughts, but maybe not
until after the weekend, when my current time crunch abates a bit.
I don't understand why it's not possible to think that the
combination of internal changes within Europe plus imperialism
combined to produce capitalism as we know it. Why is such a
passionate matter of either/or dispute?
Doug
Looks to me like the subtext to the essentiality of
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Yugoslavia list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Demonstrations to Stop the War Against Iraq!
Date: Thursday, September 23, 1999 11:06 AM
Emergency Protest Actions to Stop the War Against Iraq!
As part of the internationally coordinated week of
The following, including tables, can be downloaded from
our web site at epinet.org
mbs
September 22, 1999 Issue Brief #134
Social Investment and the Budget Debate
by Jeff Faux and Max Sawicky
Budget politics in America have become a two-legged stool. While
congressional
There is a long tradition in american sociology, going back to Dorothy
Thomas's pioneering study in 1922, of studying the relation between suicide
and other social problems, and the business cycle.
Dorothy Thomas, "the Influence of the Buisness Cycle on Certain Social
Conditions" Journal of
For those of you who are interested, you can get a 20% discount for my
book 1800 221 7945 x270 cust. service Roxanne Hunte.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
Aids Action has a very nice study of drug prices.
http://www.aidsaction.org/silencewp.html
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
I don't understand why it's not possible to think that the
combination of internal changes within Europe plus imperialism
combined to produce capitalism as we know it. Why is such a
passionate matter of either/or dispute?
Doug
Looks to me like the subtext to the essentiality of
colonialism
I don't understand why it's not possible to think that the
combination of internal changes within Europe plus imperialism
combined to produce capitalism as we know it. Why is such a
passionate matter of either/or dispute?
Doug
WS: . . . You also dismiss my argument that you may not have sufficient
empirical evidence to sort out effects of different variables by simply
calling it "babble." Well, my friend, if you ran a multiple regression with
twelve variables plus interaction effects and six cases - you would be
At 04:30 PM 9/22/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
I am not sure what you mean by "switching to capitalism". Capitalist
property relations existed throughout Latin America in the 1800s. The
problem is that the form of capitalism practiced did not conform to
Jeffersonian mythology. Instead of plucky,
Ricardo- You and I are probably the only ones reading this at this point.
People interested in the substance of the issues can look at the original
articles and book chapters that inform our arguments. In your case, the
O'Brien, Engerman, Anstey works, and in my case the Darity, Bailey and other
Hiroto Tsukada wrote:
Dear Penners,
My name if Hiroto Tsukada, a Professor of Economics at
Yamaguchi University, Japan. (Visiting UK till next
January, at University of Kent at Canterbury.)
I am studying now on globalisation's influences on
mentality of people.
Hi Hiroto,
I would
Friends,
Does anyone have the article in the August issue of "Lingua Franca"
magazine titled "The Unmasking of Rigoberto Menchu" by Hal Cohen. If
you do and you have a scanner, could you email it to me? I will be in
your debt.
Michael Yates
since when are all internal forces "Weberian"? and what is the
philosophical principle that tells you that all internal forces are
irrelevant _a priori_?
That they are ethnocentric if they come from Europe but wordly if
they come from China, and without name if they come from Africa!
At 04:53 PM 9/22/99 -0400, Jim Blaut wrote:
"The sufficient condition can be questioned by the
counterefactual of Spain and Portugal that in th einitial
phase of colonial expansion seemed to be main beneficiaries
of colonial exploitation. The Spaniards, for example, are
'credited' with plundering
. But, his discussion of
Turkish military technology seems to be a bit off
base. It has been widely reported that the walls of
Constantinople were very thick but that the Ottomans
conquered the city at least partly because of the
superiority of their cannon, more powerful than anything
Please note that the assumption that "something" has to be be done is
strictly a result of the way in which the bourgeois press treats the world,
carefully picking out what "problems" demand solution and what problems
do not even exist. The problem of severe malnutrition for those children
in
Flow of Funds Analysis Review: Second Quarter 1999
Corporations are replacing equity with debt at a feverish pace and
outstanding U.S. credit market debt has risen to unprecedented levels
relative to GDP. Jane D'Arista's quarterly assessment of trends in
borrowing, lending and investment
No, not satisfying, Doug.
There's an issue here about methods. Of course, Kism valorises
and devalorises continually. Isn't it in the least interesting to
explain why and how and where and with what temporal rhythms? If
there are particular moments in the business cycle where this
becomes
Yes probably, but it is one push that should be supported, if it has any
possibility of improving labour standards. It is one that labour unions
should push in conjunction with labour groups in other countries.
Original Message Follows
From: Stephen E Philion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The following illustrates the problems with the ultra-leftist position that
no reform of these admittedly largely imperialist structures is possible.
These structures are in any case constantly under pressure from innumerable
forces and getting remodelled and reproduced continuously. They are not
Jim D:
I don't think there was an agricultural revolution in England. There was
agricultural EVOlution in harmony with other changes taking place, but not
as n important causal force. Nor is Brenner's pseudo-class analysis of any
help. To claim that capitalism was invented by English tenant
Ah! Doug joins the fray!
All regions that possessed the more or less protocaspitalist
characteristics of Europe and were maritime oriented like the relevant
parts of Europe -- all of them had the "urge" to make profits in any way
possible, including taking slaves. But the Europeans got the big
The PDS success in Saxony follows that in Thuringia and in Brandenburg. It
is now said to be have at least 20% of the votes in all the former East
German Laender,
Prior to this election, the PDS was equal in votes to the SPD (just a
little behind). Only in Dresden was its percentage of voters
G'day Yoshie,
According to various posts and news articles, Australian unionists sprang
into activism, using union bans, no less. If only they hadn't called for
Australian/UN 'peace-keepers' and instead targeted the Australian
government for its past support of the Indonesian occupation of East
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