On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Brad De Long wrote:
Neoliberals hope that multinational corporations, financial analysts,
bond-fund managers, and bond raters will in the end be able to apply
some constructive pressure to improve the situation: better the
discipline of the world market than no
Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/00 03:49PM
Charles Brown wrote:
CB: How about if we make a special stipulation that every Black
person except Vernon Jordan gets money ? Or just every Black person
with a net worth below x
How do you define a black person?
Where would the reparations
For all the horrors discussed on trademark law, the courts have generally
upheld decent standards in the area of copyright, and this decision is a big
one. It essentially defends using copyrighted software to create new
emulation programs to run that software on different hardware. This is key
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 2000
The productivity of U.S. private nonfarm workers grew at a 5 percent pace
in the fourth quarter of 1999, contributing to the largest annual increase
in seven years, according to preliminary data released by BLS. Gains in
fourth-quarter
Louis Proyect wrote:
Capitalism does have something to do with lower infant mortality and longer
lifespans. It improved them in Belgium while degrading them in the Belgian
Congo.
People in almost all regions of the world are living longer now than
they did 20, 50, or 100 years ago. To say that
The 40 acres and a mule promise comes from the Freedman's Bureau
(1865-1872), along with civil war pensions, one of the few 19th century
federal social welfare measures. The Bureau was underfunded and hobbled
by opposition at every turn, but it did exist, and it did make these
promises.
Louis Proyect wrote:
If Doug has figures for the Yoruba or Asante
dynasties, I'd love to see them.
You're the Africa expert. Do tell.
Doug
Speculating on a Cure of Cander: A Non-Event that Made Stock
Prices Soar.
|KW| FINANCIAL MARKET;PRICES
|AU| Huberman, G.;Regev, T.
|AD| U.S.A.; COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, GRADUATE SCHOOL OF BUSINESS, First
Boston series, New York, NY 10027 U.S.A. 38p.
|DP| 1999
|ID| A1.116 WP 99-6
|AB| A
In a message dated 2/11/00 4:20:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Defining a Black person would be something like whether they have held
themselves out as Black or been officially considered Black in the various
places where race has been required to be chosen on forms
The Reform Party of the US has just split. They must be taking lessons
from old Trotskyists.
--
Rod Hay
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The History of Economic Thought Archive
http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html
Batoche Books
http://home.golden.net/~rodhay
52 Eby Street South
Kitchener,
In a message dated 2/11/00 5:47:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
No, it is not within the Marxian tradition to say that "capitalism has
brought with it certain social benefits." This is instead a typical bromide
of the Second International of the late 19th century.
Jim Devine asked,
2) Tom W., could you give a 25-word-or-less summary of the "lump of
labor fallacy" and a "25-word-or-less" summary of _why_ it's a
fallacy. Maybe I'm dumb, but I can't seem to get my mind around what the
target of the main stream of your missives is. Maybe you give an Econ.
Rod Hay wrote:
The Reform Party of the US has just split. They must be taking lessons
from old Trotskyists.
A novelist back in the '50s who adhered to some Calvinist sect
inserted in one of his novels the wisecrack, rotten wood never
splits.
Carrol
Sorry I can't identify novelist or
WIRE:02/11/2000 21:31:00 ET
Peru Election Is Undemocratic
-Carter Center
LIMA, Peru (Reuters) - A
pro-democracy foundation headed by
former U.S. President Jimmy Carter
Justin, we don't provoke like this on pen-l.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Typical 2d International Kautskyite rubbish.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Roger O writes:
Public health spending does not come out of surplus value, or the surplus
product, as you put it. It, like education costs, e.g., are part of labor's
social subsistence. According to Marx: subsistence is that bundle of goods
and services necessary to "produce, develop,
In a message dated 2/11/00 11:29:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Typical 2d International Kautskyite rubbish.
Comrade, this is irony, not provocation. The quote is from the Manifesto, so
Marx not Kautsky--a thinker whom I hold in high
Sorry, it was Jim _Blaut_ (author of "The colonizer's model of the world
") that I was referring to.
At 02:53 PM 2/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
That settles my Marxist conscience, which insists that capitalism
produces a surplus-product (unlike, say, Jim Blau (sp?), who seemed to
being saying
Sam Pawlett wrote:
People who are not part of the working class draw
health benefits too-people on welfare receive full health care and
partial dental care.
People on welfare are certainly part of the working class.
Carrol
People in almost all regions of the world are living longer now than
they did 20, 50, or 100 years ago. To say that isn't to say
imperialism isn't horrible. But it is entirely within the Marxian
tradition to say that capitalism has brought with it certain social
benefits.
Doug
No, it is not
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
... if this is the same
Robinson who was interviewed on US National Public Radio the other day,
he's not calling for reparations in the form of checks to those who were
superexploited or their descendants. He was talking about aid in the form
You're the Africa expert. Do tell.
Doug
Basil Davidson, "Africa in History":
But the kingdoms and empires were not, of course, the whole of the picture
of political development in these centuries; they were not even, in some
respects, the most familiar or interesting part of it. It may be
Typical 2d International Kautskyite rubbish.
Louis should stick to his genuinely charming reminiscences about his
Trotskyist youth.
--jks
It is understandable that Justin would embrace the "stagist" orthodoxies of
a Marxism wrenched out of context. This, after all, is the lynchpin of the
Now I am a card-carrying neoliberal: a believer that a bet on increased
international economic integration is our best hope for rapidly moving to
a truly human world, an advocate of NAFTA and GATT, a former
not-very-senior official in the Bentsen and Rubin Treasury Departments,
and a
Jim Devine wrote:
Roger O writes:
Public health spending does not come out of surplus value, or the surplus
product, as you put it. It, like education costs, e.g., is part of labor's
social subsistence. According to Marx: subsistence is that bundle of goods
and services necessary to
At 20:28 10/02/00 -0500, Louis wrote:
Chris:
I discussed more fully on marxism-thaxis Gramsci's view of the state, which
I had raised here at the beginning of the year but did not pursue on this
list. The discussion on the executive of the bourgeoisie however makes it
relevant to return to the
At 12:52 PM 2/11/00 -1000, you wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Jim Devine wrote:
Of course, the US (and especially the anti-Castro Cubans of Miami)
wants to
bring back the "good old days" of the 1950s, with the anti-Castro Cubans
replacing Batista and the mafia.
Jim Devine [EMAIL
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Jim Devine wrote:
At 12:52 PM 2/11/00 -1000, you wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Jim Devine wrote:
Of course, the US (and especially the anti-Castro Cubans of Miami)
wants to
bring back the "good old days" of the 1950s, with the anti-Castro Cubans
replacing
On Friday, February 11, 2000 at 22:04:32 (-0800) Sam Pawlett writes:
Doug Henwood wrote:
But it is entirely within the Marxian
tradition to say that capitalism has brought with it certain social
benefits.
A certain tradition within Marxism. Its not capitalism that brought the
benefits but
For any Canadians out there, or anyone with an interest in the Canadian
economy, this is a pretty
useful new service.
-Original Message-
From: Brian MacLean [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: February 10, 2000 3:47 PM
To: Brian MacLean
Subject: February 10 2000 edition: CANADA'S ECONOMY
In a message dated 00-02-12 07:27:37 EST, you write:
It is understandable that Justin would embrace the "stagist" orthodoxies of
a Marxism wrenched out of context. This, after all, is the lynchpin of the
Analytical Marxism school
How any could get this out my my quoting Marx's encominium
Bill Lear:
uttered by Marx himself. Second, this rather pathetic belief that
Capitalism is Evil, and not a highly complex intertwined mix of
variegated Good and Bad.
This is not what the argument is about at all. Moralistic terms do not
apply whatsoever. The more appropriate term would be
Brad wrote:
Now I am a card-carrying neoliberal: a believer that a bet on
increased international economic integration is our best hope for
rapidly moving to a truly human world, an advocate of NAFTA and GATT,
a former not-very-senior official in the Bentsen and Rubin Treasury
Departments, and a
I have defended "a kind of directionality in history towards emancipation, a
long run tendancy towards a state of affairs without domination," based
howver, on a class struggle account rather than on a Cohenist
technologogical
determinist account. I have said the thesis about a tendenct
From The Philadelphia Inquirer
February 5, 2000
TULSA RACE RIOT PANEL RECOMMENDS REPARATIONS
White mob killed as many as 300 people, mostly blacks;
Oklahoma commission calls for payments to survivors
by Renee Ruble - Associated Press
TULSA, Okla. - A state commission recommended yesterday
"William S. Lear" wrote:
Second, this rather pathetic belief that
Capitalism is Evil, and not a highly complex intertwined mix of
variegated Good and Bad.
The first point judges the second. The view that capitalism is
a mixture of Good and Bad is as pathetic, and for the same
reasons (its
Sam Pawlett wrote:
A certain tradition within Marxism. Its not capitalism that brought the
benefits but people struggling for public health, social security etc.
For example, the public health system (now being dismantled) in Canada
has brought great social benefit. It was instituted within
Michael's question is at least interesting, and open to debate.
To claim that capitalism has no progressive features, is simply the idle
fantasy of a mind that imagined itself to be encased in the body of a
"revolutionary". If that was the case the left would have a much less
difficult time
Louis Proyect wrote:
I wonder which Marxist thinkers of the 20th century Doug has in mind when
he refers to this "ambivalent" attitude. G.A. Cohen? Frank Furedi? John
Roemer?
Ernest Mandel, for one, who wrote the passage appended below. I'm
also curious what you make of these comments by your
Doug:
Ernest Mandel, for one, who wrote the passage appended below. I'm
also curious what you make of these comments by your "muses."
Mariategui, writing scornfully of those who "dreamed of nobly leading
a revolution of the shirtless helots," added:
I am not sure what this business about
Roger wrote:
Public health spending does not come out of surplus value, or the surplus
product, as you put it. It, like education costs, e.g., is part of
labor's
social subsistence. According to Marx: subsistence is that bundle of
goods
and services necessary to "produce, develop,
Bill Lear writes:
[the] Manichean view that only "anti-capitalist elements ... within
capitalism ... bring about social benefits" simply does not square
with the facts. I happen to think slavery is a bad idea, but slavery
was not destroyed in this society by "anti-capitalist elements".
The
Such assertions however are unprovable, just as insertion that
capitalism is acting as the engine of human progress.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Well, human progress is occurring. It is occurring while we have a
capitalist economic
Lou,
I have already reprimanded Justin for taunting you. Pleasing to respond
in-kind.
Louis Proyect wrote:
Typical 2d International Kautskyite rubbish.
Louis should stick to his genuinely charming reminiscences about his
Trotskyist youth.
--jks
It is understandable that Justin
I was trying to suggest that capitalist progress might be negative sum
game. The pyramids might be considered to be a monument of human
progress, but they might not be worth is much is the value of the Jewish
labor (if the Jews to build them as slaves) there was expended in
producing them.
Sam Pawlett wrote:
A certain tradition within Marxism. Its not capitalism that brought the
benefits but people struggling for public health, social security etc.
But capitalism made possible the wealth and scientific knowledge that
people struggled over, and the partial socialization of
This is to announce that a full transcript of the December 2, 1998,
debate
between Andre Gunder Frank and David Landes is now available on the
World
History Center website. The debate, centering on their two 1998 books
and
on their differing interpretations of modern world economic history,
took
MOBILIZATION FOR GLOBAL JUSTICE
Thousands will March in Washington April 16-17!
Organizational Endorsements and Support Needed Now
We need your support for the continuing struggle for economic justice.
Endorse the Mobilization for Global Justice and join us in our protest
against IMF and World
Lou Doug:
Marx himself deliberately pointed out the need to work out a system
of needs, which has nothing to do with the neo-asceticism peddled in
some circles as Marxist orthodoxy.
Ascetism? How dare you! I am broiling a sirloin steak for dinner, courtesy
of a Vinegar Factory gift certificate
I haven't seen your book Michael. But on the negative side, capitalism certainly
steers scientific development in directions which have proven to be harmful. It has
also impeded development of science that could be beneficial. I don't doubt that it
is a double edged sword. I think that on balance
In a message dated 00-02-12 21:52:16 EST, you write:
How much "progress" occurs
because of science? Do we attribute science to capitalism or can we
consider the scientific process to be "non-capitalist?"
Good and hard questions. I think that you would have to distinguish between
In a message dated 00-02-13 00:28:27 EST, you write:
What matters for Kant is Law, not pleasures; and if the happiness (=
pleasures) of the people come into contradiction with Law, it is Law that
takes precedence. What philosophy can be more ascetic - and more
anti-revolutionary - than
Michael Yates wrote to Doug:
Do you think that to say,as Marx did, that capitalism gives us " a
presentiment that such productive forces slumber[...] in the breast of
social labor" that he is being ambivalent about capitalism? I don't
think this is the right word. Saying that capitalism helps to
Justin:
No one would mistake Kant for a hedonist. In his essay on "occupation," he
says that "the pleasures of life do not fill our time but leave it empty" and
he recommends activity as opposed to mere enjoyment. However, he is a fan of
happiness. "Without occupation a man cannot live happily."
Lysenko was hardly "science" any more than the reserach by the Tobacco
Institute or Hernnstein Murray is science.
Exactly my point...
Ernest Mandel, "Marxist Economic Theory, Volume 2":
Born in Western Europe, industrial capitalism spread in the course of a
century over the entire world. But this expansion assumed a very special
form: all the countries in the world became outlets, sources of raw
material and, to a smaller
On Saturday, February 12, 2000 at 11:04:31 (-0600) Carrol Cox writes:
"William S. Lear" wrote:
Second, this rather pathetic belief that
Capitalism is Evil, and not a highly complex intertwined mix of
variegated Good and Bad.
The first point judges the second. The view that capitalism is
a
Well, human progress is occurring. It is occurring while we have a
capitalist economic system. And no one today thinks the... non-capitalist
economic systems we saw during the twentieth century were faster roads for
human progress.
I'm sure there's _someone_ who thinks that the bureaucratic
Brad De Long wrote:
Well, human progress is occurring. It is occurring while we have a
capitalist economic system.
You can see it happening in Cuba also. How much "progress" occurs
because of science? Do we attribute science to capitalism or can we
consider the scientific process to be
I probably didn't mention here, but I am working on one of the most
interesting projects of my life, which is to develop an anthology based on
the magazine American Socialist, which was co-edited by Harry Braverman and
Bert Cochran. The magazine only lasted from 1954 to 1959 but without
How much "progress" occurs
because of science? Do we attribute science to capitalism or can we
consider the scientific process to be "non-capitalist?"
Good and hard questions. I think that you would have to distinguish between
"science", "research", and "development" in order to answer them.
Doug Henwood wrote:
But capitalism made possible the wealth and scientific knowledge that
people struggled over, and the partial socialization of production
that made socialism possible. This ambivalent attitude towards
capitalism seems to me one of the distinctive features of Marxism -
"William S. Lear" wrote:
Second, this rather pathetic belief that
Capitalism is Evil, and not a highly complex intertwined mix of
variegated Good and Bad.
What is pathetic about believing capitalism is evil if you can
demonstrate it? It seems that we have different experiences and a
Some idle speculations, if I may ...
I reckon we'd have to say science is capitalist science if it's done within
capitalist relations. Even publicly-funded science has been taking on a
more applied flavour over the last decade here. And the applications are
chosen with market appeal in mind.
Brad De Long wrote:
I think that you would have to distinguish between
"science", "research", and "development" in order to answer them. And think
hard about the fact that it was not in producing the heavy industrial goods
of the second industrial revolution but in developing and producing
Sam, I think that the working class does engage in creative activity.
some of it is of a negative kind, as when workers creatively figure out
how to shirk, sabotage production, get the boss in trouble, etc. Some
of it is personal as when workers develop hobbies and crafts outside of
work, some
Do you think that to say,as Marx did, that capitalism gives us " a
presentiment that such productive forces slumber[...] in the breast of
social labor" that he is being ambivalent about capitalism? I don't
think this is the right word. Saying that capitalism helps to show us
the way to abundant
The incentives provided by capitalism certainly lead to an acceleration of
scientific development. Capitalism also provided a surplus which could finance
time away from more mundane economic activities. The advent of mass education
expanded the talent pool from which scientists could be drawn.
Rod, in my Class Warfare book I discussed how capitalism impedes scientific
development.
Rod Hay wrote:
The incentives provided by capitalism certainly lead to an acceleration of
scientific development. Capitalism also provided a surplus which could finance
time away from more mundane
"Can we not attempt on a global level what any successful industrialised
country does to help its most disadvantaged or undeveloped regions to catch
up."
Saturday, 12 February, 2000, 13:23 GMT
Annan calls for global deal
United Nations
Louis Proyect wrote:
Essentially, this is the same kind of argument being made by defenders of
capitalism in this discussion. They say that things are getting better in
the third world. Look at life expectancy figures. They are better than they
were 100 years ago. Isn't that progress? Why
Or that the USSR developed rapidly, was then wiped out during WWII, rebuilt
again.
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany and
the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't call
the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the recovery
Doug:
Louis Proyect wrote:
Essentially, this is the same kind of argument being made by defenders of
capitalism in this discussion. They say that things are getting better in
the third world. Look at life expectancy figures. They are better than they
were 100 years ago. Isn't that progress? Why
Brad:
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany and
the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't call
the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the recovery
of the defeated axis powers...
Martin Hart-Landsberg, "Korea: Divison,
Brad De Long wrote:
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany
and the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't
call the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the
recovery of the defeated axis powers...
According to Maddison's stats,
SPECIAL NOTE ON MAILING:
This is the last issue that is sent out under the old mailing system. There
are always a few problems when shifting to new modes. Please let us know if
you suddenly stop receiving the newsletter. It means your name was
accidentally dropped and
CHICAGO (Reuters) - Commodities giant Cargill Inc, the largest privately held company in
the United States, and John Deere Credit said they will offer a new program this year to
finance farmer expenses and cash flow.
The program, called Performance Finance, will offer straight loans and a
I am surprised that YOU are surprised by the former USSR's failure in the
environmentr, etc. Perhaps this comes from having an economist's perception
of the world. My social science training was in political science, so it
seems quite natural to me. The USSR did badly in the environmental area
Lou and Doug, Please be careful. Thanks.
Louis Proyect wrote:
Doug:
Louis Proyect wrote:
Essentially, this is the same kind of argument being made by defenders of
capitalism in this discussion. They say that things are getting better in
the third world. Look at life expectancy figures.
The externalities in Eastern Europe reflected, in part, a lack of democracy, and
also a need to industrialize fast to protect communism from NATO. Both elements
are important.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL
for what it's worth, the following was published in today's L.A.TIMES.
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 07:36:51 -0800
To: "Editors, Los Angeles TIMES" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Productivity Growth
Your front-page article ("U.S. Productivity Growth in '99 is
At 07:35 AM 02/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:
Or that the USSR developed rapidly, was then wiped out during WWII, rebuilt
again.
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany and the
USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't call the
USSR's post-WWII recovery
Brad writes:
It is odd, and I do not understand, just why it was that
really-existing-socialism was so *lousy* at those parts of economic
activity where externalities are rampant and decentralized atomistic
decision making works worst.
In technological development and in pollution control all
On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
These achievements were so remarkable that even Western
economists began to
speak of the "North Korean Miracle." In fact, according to the economist
Joan Robinson, writing in 1965, "All economic miracles of the
postwar world are put in the shade by these
Brad wrote:
Makes me think we need much better theories of government failure than we
have...
I didn't say it clearly enough in my previous response to this statement,
but this sentence embodies an inadequate problematic for dealing with this
issue.
Originally, orthodox economists of the
On Behalf Of Brad De Long
It is odd, and I do not understand, just why it was that
really-existing-socialism was so *lousy* at those parts of economic
activity where externalities are rampant and decentralized atomistic
decision making works worst. In technological development and in
In a message dated 00-02-13 14:45:30 EST, you write:
What orthodox economists may see as
"failure" is success to the capitalists or the Stalinist bureaucrats.
However, we should keep in mind what "success" is from the point of the
working classes.
Well, I doubt whether either
At 03:16 PM 02/13/2000 -0500, you wrote:
In a message dated 00-02-13 14:45:30 EST, you write:
What orthodox economists may see as
"failure" is success to the capitalists or the Stalinist bureaucrats.
However, we should keep in mind what "success" is from the point of the
working classes.
Nathan, Bettleheim, some time ago, made the point that the urgency of war caused
Lenin to establish systems of control much like those of the capitalists. I
don't want to get into a Lenin vs. Trotsky, etc. line, but I think it is
important to remember the context.
Nathan Newman wrote:
On
On Behalf Of Michael Perelman
Nathan, Bettleheim, some time ago, made the point that the
urgency of war caused
Lenin to establish systems of control much like those of the
capitalists. I
don't want to get into a Lenin vs. Trotsky, etc. line, but I think it is
important to remember the
I haven't seen your book Michael. But on the negative side,
capitalism certainly
steers scientific development in directions which have proven to be
harmful. It has
also impeded development of science that could be beneficial. I
don't doubt that it
is a double edged sword. I think that on
Justin:
Kanr is saying in the "Common Saying" essay that because
virturous action is caused by something noumenal, thewrefore unknowable, we
cannot know for sure that ever act rightly from the right reasons. But it is
(Kant thinks) a matter of logic that if we act only from our desire for
I have recently finished a paper titled "Price Discrimination,
Electronic Redlining, and Price Fixing in de-regulated electric power."
I feel shameless not only for calling attention to the paper but
because I have more than once announced -- long ago -- that it was
imminent.
Done for
Justin wrote:
That woulld mean, for K, that they would be incapable of free and moral
action, that is, they would not be human. I don't think he thought that. And
if he did--the passages you quote can be understood as diescriptions of the
state of the law at the time rather than advocacy of the
Jim Devine wrote:
Roger wrote:
Public health spending does not come out of surplus value, or the surplus
product, as you put it. It, like education costs, e.g., is part of
labor's
social subsistence. According to Marx: subsistence is that bundle of
goods
and services
Rob mentioned the Austrialian article on trademarks, but he left out
what I thought was the best part:
In 1942, the Marx Brothers were planning to make a movie called A
Night In Casablanca. Warner Bros blocked the move, saying that it
owned the rights to the name. Groucho Marx retorted
Essentially, this is the same kind of argument being made by defenders of
capitalism in this discussion. They say that things are getting better in
the third world. Look at life expectancy figures. They are better than they
were 100 years ago. Isn't that progress? Why disrupt this march forward
Brad De Long wrote:
Nah. Not consistent with the post-WWII relative growth of Germany
and the USSR, or West and East Germany, or Japan and the USSR. Can't
call the USSR's post-WWII recovery "fast" by comparison with the
recovery of the defeated axis powers...
According to Maddison's stats, the
On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
These achievements were so remarkable that even Western
economists began to
speak of the "North Korean Miracle." In fact, according to the economist
Joan Robinson, writing in 1965, "All economic miracles of the
postwar world are put in the shade by these
1 - 100 of 108 matches
Mail list logo
