Jim Devine wrote, quoting Norm:
Thorstein Veblen?
a old prof of mine once told me, "He was an 'institutionalist', but they
never amounted to anything." true or not?
A lot of his work was very specific to his era, so that orthodox economists
see his work as irrelevant. But his era -- the
Jim Devine wrote:
hey, what's wrong with Marilyn Manson? or 'N Sync? or Pauly Shore? Do you
want to step _outside_ and say that?
=
Actually, Jim, it could have been a lot worse. Until your recent recantation
it looked like your Christmas stocking filler was going to be Paul Krugman's
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I don't doubt it. I was speaking from a
U.S. vantage point, where a coop in our
ocean of business firms and hierarchical
non-profits is more of a curiosity than
a political statement.
mbs
Coops are not so dangerous that a lender
would forego their business.\
mbs
Max,
You should
G'day all,
A lot of his work was very specific to his era, so that orthodox economists
see his work as irrelevant. But his era -- the Gilded Age at the end of the
19th century -- seems very similar to our own, so I can see his insights as
being quite relevant now.
Bit of British
I don't remember where I picked this up, and it
may be quite apocryphal, but I always loved it.
Supposedly, Veblen's original sub-title (rejected
by the publisher) for *The Higher Education in
America* was "A Study in Human Depravity."
Carrol
P.S. Do I have that title right? Or was it "Higher
This would fall under my definition of fussy,
but to each his own. I'll probably buy a $200
driver (Taylor TI2 Bubbleshaft; I know, go ahead
and make up a joke) next spring.
mbs
I recommend a Linn turntable (basik), good value for a tidy sum! I think
at 450, which I have been eyeing it for
It's even better than that:
"The Higher Learning in America: A Study in Total Depravity"
Carrol Cox wrote:
I don't remember where I picked this up, and it
may be quite apocryphal, but I always loved it.
Supposedly, Veblen's original sub-title (rejected
by the publisher) for *The Higher
Arthur K. Davis wrote an article/chapter in a book if I remember the
title correctly as *American Radicals* on Veblen. Part of the title
of that chapter is "the Marxian Key" or something like that. I have
an offprint copy that Art gave me but I don't know if I can find it to
give the full
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/04/00 04:53PM
At 09:34 PM 12/4/00 +, you wrote:
entrepreneurship =df creation of new needsa nd ways to satisfy them.
this is an unconventional definition of entrepreneurship, using an
unconventional definition of needs. As I've said, unconventional
definitions are
G'day again,
For those of you who missed Wynne Godley's latest; it's compellingly
summarised here. For those of you interested in comparisons between
Australia's 'boom' and America's; here 'tis. For those of you who have a
view about how legal across-the board import duties would be under WTO
Michael P. wrote:
So, Marx, somewhere in the Grundrisse ... uses newspapers, I believe, as
an example of a new need. He never read a modern US newspaper and thus
believed that they could be sources of information and education.
It makes more sense to say that newspapers were a new _product_,
Gary MacLennan wrote:
2. Were there homosexuals back then?
I especially enjoyed the posts around the history of homosexuality
and homophobia. I am vividly reminded about the first time I used
the word "homophobia" in a lecture sometime in the early 80s. The
students stopped me and asked me
BLS DAILY REPORT, MONDAY, DECEMBER 4, 2000
The Wall Street Journal's "Tracking the Economy" (A15) says that the BLS
productivity figure for the third quarter, to be released Wednesday, is
likely to be 3.5 percent, according to the Thomson Global Forecast, in
comparison to the previous
Learning.
And TV knew a thing or two about depravity.
mbs
I don't remember where I picked this up, and it
may be quite apocryphal, but I always loved it.
Supposedly, Veblen's original sub-title (rejected
by the publisher) for *The Higher Education in
America* was "A Study in Human Depravity."
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/05/00 10:30AM
Michael P. wrote:
So, Marx, somewhere in the Grundrisse ... uses newspapers, I believe, as
an example of a new need. He never read a modern US newspaper and thus
believed that they could be sources of information and education.
It makes more sense to
Jon Elster made this sort of point. It's fair enough, but it just shows that
in rich society with a profusion of needs, we need to make choices. Is that
so bad? It will be nice when the hard choice we must make is whether to
devote ourselves to the symphony or the seminar rather than to paying
Well, this list strikes me as rather insular. Louis talks about Co-ops in
the same breath with utopian socialism. On the prairies co-ops, credit
unions, etc. are all
around us. They are not failing. Part of the reason for the plethora of
co-ops is that there have been social democratic and/or
Elster can't lay a hand on Kolokowski as a scholar or an interpreter of
Marx: K's readings are always possible, while Elsters' are often just
obtuse or perverse. On the other side, Elster isn't anti-Marxist; he
wasn't trying to construct a tombstone, but to do develop and reconstitute
the
for those of you near Los Angeles
You are invited to attend a
LABOR/COMMUNITY FORUM
Featuring the
KOREAN CONFEDERATION OF TRADE UNIONS
Thursday, December 7
6-8 p.m.
United Teachers of Los Angeles Building
3303 Wilshire Blvd. (at Berendo)
Room 815
Los Angeles
(Parking entrance on Berendo,
At 11:49 AM 12/5/00 +0200, you wrote:
Jim Devine wrote:
hey, what's wrong with Marilyn Manson? or 'N Sync? or Pauly Shore? Do you
want to step _outside_ and say that?
=
Actually, Jim, it could have been a lot worse. Until your recent recantation
it looked like your Christmas stocking
At 10:59 AM 12/5/00 +0200, you wrote:
Rick Tilman is another author who has
written a great deal about Veblen, and it's worth checking out his
"Intellectual Consequences of Thorstein Veblen: Unresolved Issues"
(Greenwood Press, 1996) and "Thorstein Veblen and His Critics" (Princeton
UP, 1992),
Credit Unions in Canada were also restricted but I do not know the
details...but banks also have tried to keep trust companies from banking
functions,,
unsuccesssfully I gather. If there is strong enough political pressure
governments can and have been moved on these matters. Money talks but so
Ken Hanley wrote:
Well, this list strikes me as rather insular. Louis talks about Co-ops in
the same breath with utopian socialism. On the prairies co-ops, credit
unions, etc. are all
around us. They are not failing.
One of the things that must not be neglected is the very real value of such
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/05/00 11:07AM
Jon Elster made this sort of point. It's fair enough, but it just shows that
in rich society with a profusion of needs, we need to make choices. Is that
so bad?
((
CB: The claim is not that it is so bad. It is that there are diminishing returns
Tom wrote:
What if we push the preceding argument "Beyond Capital" (so to speak) to
consider the depreciation of wage labour on more or less the same basis?
Somewhere in vol. III of Capital (I haven't been able to track down the
location), Marx criticized those vulgar political economists who
NY Times, December 5, 2000
FREEDOM'S TOLL
Infectious Diseases Rising Again in Russia
By ABIGAIL ZUGER
VORONEZH, Russia - Natalia Kostina lay flat on her back on a metal
examining table in this city's tuberculosis hospital, staring impassively
at the ceiling. In an instant, a doctor jabbed
For those who keep sending images -
I have never seen an image come through successfully,
on any of the three mail lists that I'm on.
It always comes through as a huge block of gibberish.
Barry
thank you for your valuable addition to the co-op discussion. all kinds of
cooperatives are welcome, including industrials.
seems to me that co-ops are an ideal way for the socialists and their
suffering proletariat to conquer the world.
assumption: no legal impediments for co-ops of any
I just finished reading
Garrett, Laurie. 2000. Betrayal of Trust (NY: Hyperion).
She gives an excellent critique of Russian health. The book is devoted to the
history of the rise and fall of public health. A central thesis is that
capitalism is putting excessive attention to the delivery of
don't understand why this is a Constitutional crisis worthy of the High-9.
something in the Constitution that prevents co-ops?
maybe i need a legal lesson in "legal forms of business enterprise".
norm
-Original Message-
From: Jim Devine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday,
credit unions in Québec, unified in a huge federation (Desjardins) have
become one of the province's largest financial institutions and were the
first to integrate completely financial services, ie insurance (life,
car,
home), long term investment and traditionnal banking, since they were
not
justin: Indeed, if the usual studies are correct, co-ops are as efficient or
more so than capitalist enterprise, and no less productive or profitable. So
if lenders make decisions solely on those basis, they should not
discriminate
against co-ops. That does not mean they do make such decisions.
Michael Perelman wrote:
I tried to tell the story of the Great Depression of the late 19th century
in my
book, End of Economics. Not only did the Depression occur in the way Jim
cited
Doug Dowd, but most of the leading economists of the time in the United States
explicitly recognized that
I don't see this. Why does it diminish my quality of living as a lover of
seminbars that there are opportunities as a listener to symphonies? And
while choosing may be hard, and and the hardness a disvalue, why is it an
improvement to say, No More Seminars? There, now you don't have to choose!
This is from Eric Pineault in Quebec. He is not on the list so I am
forwarding it on his behalf. His remarks re treatment of workers, cutbacks,
etc. might apply to
larger credit unions here as well but I don't know. When our local credit
unions merged there was no cutback in staff but perhaps
Do you want to FBI looking at you for drugs as well as politics? --jks
At 11:49 AM 12/5/00 +0200, you wrote:
Jim Devine wrote:
hey, what's wrong with Marilyn Manson? or 'N Sync? or Pauly Shore? Do you
want to step _outside_ and say that?
=
Actually, Jim, it could have been a lot worse.
MK: I disagree. I think most folks take the outrages of the GOP for
granted.
They are shameless in their shamefulness.
Michael K.
Yes, they are. But it doesn't seem to hurt them.
Can you imagine the Democrats successfully doing
to Bush what was done to Clinton? For example,
a la
Oh, I like Elster a lot. It's just that he's no scholar in the sense that
Kolakowski is. Elster has a new book out on self-binding, the latest
installment in what has been his best work in any case. I haven't read it,
but it is called Ulysses Unbound. --jks
Elster can't lay a hand on
A comment - has anybody met/seen/talked with/heard or heard of a
single Republican who doesn't stand solidly on Bush's side in this
dispute?
Why is it that the Democrats are wishy-washy on Gore, while the
Republicans are hard-core for Bush?
Perhaps they have a clearer vision.
Barry
but these minor character defects pale in a man so brilliant that he could
envision a flawless engineering meritocracy ruling the world in the public
interest. of course in his farsightedness he would not have missed
ensconsing rocket engineers as the elite among the elite!
norm
For those who don't think that the dispute in Florida
is a big deal, consider this:
Aside from Bush getting the presidency, we are now (if
things go as I predict) going to see:
Widespread voting abuse conducted by a party, sufficient
to alter a national election. The campaign co-chair
rushing
The short version of my own answer (which I am sending you) is that there
are collective acion problem in getting this started, that it would take
powerful political actors like unions and ultimately the government to get a
mass coop movement off the ground. The standard right wing answer,
KH: it was not long ago that co-operative housing was funded by both
provincial and federal government. While there were some ridiculous
restrictions a group of which I was president were able to get financing at
below market rates. In exchange we made some of our units available to the
local
You begin to see what I mean about collective action problems? Also, the CUs
have to be big enough. ALso, they have to look out for the good of their
depositors, which means they can't especially favor coops if a coop is not
competitive . . . . --jks
justin: Indeed, if the usual studies are
A comment - has anybody met/seen/talked with/heard or heard of a
single Republican who doesn't stand solidly on Bush's side in this
dispute?
Why is it that the Democrats are wishy-washy on Gore, while the
Republicans are hard-core for Bush?
Perhaps they have a clearer vision.
Barry
The
Norm, the paying field is not level. We have a huge structure of corporate
law and a network of interlocking financial and other institutions based on
corporate (and private individual) ownership as a fundamental business of
enterprise organization. Form of business organization do not operate
Here is a short overview of credit unions in Canada. More detailed
information is available at
http://www.fin.gc.ca/toce/2000/ccu_e.html#Overview
Cheers, Ken Hanly
Overview
Canada has a strong credit union movement, which consists of both credit
unions and caisses populaires, a form of credit
Jim Devine wrote:
Tom wrote:
Somewhere in vol. III of Capital (I haven't been able to track down the
location), Marx criticized those vulgar political economists who become so
enamored of the idea of interest-bearing capital that they even proclaim
wages as a form of interest on the labourer's
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I expect that as the social and economic crisis of late capitalism deepens,
the Republican Party will continue to shift to the right. Despite Bush's
minstrel show at the convention, the Republican Party ruled Texas with a
racist
Stocks added to strong gains in late afternoon trading on Tuesday,
pushed
upward by speculation that the U.S. central bank may consider
cutting interest
rates and the battle for the White House is nearing a conclusion.
Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said
Nathan Newman wrote:
When folks spend more time criticizing the Dems than talking about the
outrages of the GOP, you are choosing sides and the wrong one.
I'll be very interested to see how much an issue of this the Dems
make going forward, in future elections. Gore sent Jesse Jackson home
So where is your evidence of any even incipient rightward shift among Dems
on immigration issues. In the last four years, especially, as the results
of the latino electoral mobilization of 1996 was fully appreciated, the Dems
have been moving in a MORE pro-immigrant stance.
-- Nathan Newman
Hey, I get my best drugs from the FBI itself.
Do you want to FBI looking at you for drugs as well as politics? --jks
At 11:49 AM 12/5/00 +0200, you wrote:
Jim Devine wrote:
hey, what's wrong with Marilyn Manson? or 'N Sync? or Pauly Shore? Do you
want to step _outside_ and say that?
=
NY Times, December 5, 2000
Turkey Grapples With a Severe Financial Crisis
By DOUGLAS FRANTZ
ISTANBUL, Dec. 4 - Confronting a plunging stock market, stratospheric
overnight interest rates and protests in the street by teachers and
hospital workers, the Turkish government struggled today to find
At 02:13 PM 12/5/00 -0500, you (Barry?) wrote:
Why is it that the Democrats are wishy-washy on Gore, while the
Republicans are hard-core for Bush?
perhaps because Gore is such a robot? or because he's so wishy-washy
himself, first being a DLC technocrat and then pretending to be an "I'll
fight
Norm, in addition to the legal impediments that don't exist, it's important
to realize that a company doesn't win in a capitalist market by being
efficient. A company has to have advertising, distribution networks, a
large and aggressive legal staff, friends at the bank, RD investment,
Tom writes:
Although the "total working day" may be hard to quantify, it has
qualitative limits, depending upon definite technical, historical and
physiological factors. At some unspecifiable (and malleable) point,
increasing the length of the working day won't do any more good because
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathan Newman wrote:
When folks spend more time criticizing the Dems than talking about the
outrages of the GOP, you are choosing sides and the wrong one.
-I'll be very interested to see how much an issue of this the Dems
Nathan Newman wrote:
One of the areas where
the Democrats have clearly and demonstrably moved towards a more progressive
position in the last fifteen years is on immigration.
Employers love loose immigration regulations, no? Forbes and the WSJ
are all in favor of pretty open borders. Can you
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If and when objective conditions foment a Buchanan candidacy, I
would expect the Democrats to run somebody who has an abysmal position on
immigration and all the rest of it.
New immigrants becoming citizens are voting
The huge Berkeley co-op went belly-up. They tried to expand too fast --
acting corporate.
There used to be a lot of co-ops in
Berkeley
when I lived there, because it was a hot-bed of leftism. (It's like in much
of Canada.)
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State
At 02:06 PM 12/5/00 -0800, you wrote:
The huge Berkeley co-op went belly-up. They tried to expand too fast --
acting corporate.
right. I was there for much of it (before the fall). They bought out a
small chain of grocery stores and instantly grew, which led to the Co-Op's
demise. There were
Rhetorical question: is ex-Marxism among Kolakowski's Main Currents of
Marxism? Seriously, I keep coming back to the spectre (pun intended) of all
the former Marxists who define what has come to stand as "other than
Marxism" in contemporary academic thought and journalistic certitude. This
Immigration and economic growth
By Wadi'h Halabi (Peoples Weekly World)
Capital has been flooding into the U.S. since the 1991 Gulf War. In the three months
after imperialism began bombing Yugoslavia in 1999, capital gushed into the U.S. at
the extraordinary annual rate of $1,109 billion,
The Democratic Party essentially believes in nothing except winning office,
so why would it be capable of galvanizing a nonexistent base?
This state of affairs was created by the Democratic Leadership Council. The
DLC was launched by Gore, Clinton and other disciples of New Republic
\Robin Hanson wrote:
The question is how to choose, on matters of fact as opposed to value, when
disagreement persists, even after substantial discourse. Whose estimate
should determine actions? A vote among everyone? A vote among a random
jury? Administrative agency experts? A panel of
The DLC started after the Mondale defeat. The guiding
principle was not any special conservative ideological
position, but a determination not to get smoked again
in a national election. What did Mondale win? Two
states or something? A pretty strong reaction was
understandable.
Mondale was
Charles Brown wrote:
Immigration and economic growth
By Wadi'h Halabi (Peoples Weekly World)
Capital has been flooding into the U.S. since the 1991 Gulf War. In
the three months after imperialism began bombing Yugoslavia in 1999
How I love the PWW. For the 3 months leading up to the
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Hoover" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
First specific DLC accomplishment was to convince 11 southern states to
hold their prez primaries on same day in 1988 for purpose of boosting
their clout, enhancing position of south in nominating process and
helping
A comment - has anybody met/seen/talked with/heard or heard of a
single Republican who doesn't stand solidly on Bush's side in this
dispute?
Why is it that the Democrats are wishy-washy on Gore, while the
Republicans are hard-core for Bush?
Perhaps they have a clearer vision.
Barry
Since
From: "Michael Hoover" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
First specific DLC accomplishment was to convince 11 southern states to
hold their prez primaries on same day in 1988 for purpose of boosting
their clout, enhancing position of south in nominating process and
helping "moderate" southern candidates.
Greenspan intimates that the economy is slowing too fast, the stock market
takes that as a sign of lower interest rates to come and instantly discounts
those not-yet-hatched lower rates. The wealth effect of the run-up in stock
prices will encourage folks to extend their credit card debt more
On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, David Shemano wrote:
Gore had requested a statewide manual recount on November 9, he would have
had the moral upper hand, and I would have supported him. But if he did
that, he probably would have lost, so he chose the "count every Democratic
vote" strategy. He deserved
Nathan,
Looking from the outside, whatever the cost to Americans, getting
rid of Madeline Albright has got to be a welfare gain to the rest of
the world. It is surely worth 4 years of Bush to get rid of that
person before she brings more disaster on the rest of the world.
Paul Phillips,
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:20:17 -0800
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Jesse Helms is Sparking a Real Constitutional Crisis - The
Norm,
If you want to study co-ops as a system, complete with their own
credit union bank and education system, have a look at the history
and success of the Mondragon co-ops in Spain. With all their
limitations, this is probably the best example of what you are
looking for. I would also
Could anyone give me in a short one or two paragraph digest
a) what was Microsoft charged with;
b) what was it convicted of; and
c) what was the remedy proposed.
i.e. what sin against neoclassical orthodoxy did it transend.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
That's easy. For years, Microsoft arrogantly neglected to contribute much
to either political party. So it was vulnerable. Few major corporations
ever make this error. Microsoft soon rectified its behavior.
On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 08:59:42PM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Could anyone give
The image of the cyborg entails a double process of objectification (of
social relations) and anthropomorphic animation (of the resulting object).
The analysis of this double process is already present in Marx's discussion
of the commodity fetish. Thus the cyborg is in a way a redundant figure.
Kelley wrote:
At 04:22 PM 12/5/00 -0600, Carrol Cox wrote:
kelley wrote:
no, i'm talking about Weber's study of the rise of capitalism. the
conditions were, largely, there for the chinese to have been the place
where a proto-capitalist economic organization took off, not all the
.the real issue is that we're
going to get a Prez who *lost the popular vote* thanks to our dreadful 18th
century electoral system. A properly Soviet conclusion to the twilight of
the American Empire!
-- Dennis
As Dog has pointed out, we don't yet know for sure that Gore won the popular
I meant Doug, not Dog. Arf! --jks
_
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
G'day Paul and Michael,
I'm either wholly wrong or teaching old pros how to suck eggs, but ...
That's easy. For years, Microsoft arrogantly neglected to contribute much
to either political party. So it was vulnerable. Few major corporations
ever make this error. Microsoft soon rectified its
that BC weed shouldn't be given to islanders.
Ian
The image of the cyborg entails a double process of objectification (of
social relations) and anthropomorphic animation (of the resulting object).
The analysis of this double process is already present in Marx's
discussion
of the
As reported on the Guardian website, whose number of audited "impressions"
has gone up from 10 million a month last year to 22 million, the paper is
to mount a challenge to the British Royal Family.
While this may appear to many to be about quirks arising from old fashioned
traditions, behind
The first sign of a downturn in the readiness of US consumers to buy, and
the probable new administration and Greenspan warn of a recession.
Greenspan's modulated comment is enough to be taken as a signal that US
interest rates are likely to be lowered. The stock markets rise.
What is the dog
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