[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 11/18/02 7:23:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Monster, butcher, mass murderer? I have an opinion about monsters in
American history and previous to this history hundreds of years of
extreme human depravity. You know in
joanna bujes wrote:
When is the quarter/semester over?
This question, in the context of what is below confuses me.
Joanna
At 04:29 AM 11/19/2002 +, you wrote:
Gar Lipow wrote:
Hi Joanna - I'm an anarchist leaning
independent socialist myself. (I would
explain why I'm
Hi Joanna - I'm an anarchist leaning independent socialist myself. (I
would explain why I'm not an anarchist, but I doubt it would be of great
interest to anyone.) I know that Stalin was a butcher, monster, a mass
murderer and a totalitarian. He did almost nothing I would defend. But
almost
From: Chris Burford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Washington Post 16 Nov:-
Gore already was making political news. On Wednesday night, he told a
New York audience that he had reluctantly come to the conclusion
that the only solution to the impending crisis in health care was a
single-payer national
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=2544sectionID=36
ZNet Interviews Robin Hahel
About The ABCs of Political Economy
by Robin Hahnel; October 27, 2002
(1) Can you tell ZNet, please, what your new book, The ABCs of Political
Economy, is about? What is it trying to communicate?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Japan's economic crisis is intensifying again, and the chief of the IMF says
no need to panic. I will merely recite my No-Panic Contrary Rule: When they
say there's no need to panic, that is precisely the time to start to panic.
--Scott Harrison
This is just
Ok. I looked at the Blanford proposal. It is not really worth spending
much time on. Single payer (say the Canadian system) is so obviously better.
I'll just make a few points.
1) The system he suggests still relies heavily on private insurers. In
the U.S. about 30% (almost 1 in 3) health
Michael Perelman wrote:
Balzac: The secret of great wealth with no obvious source is some
forgotten crime, forgotten because it was done neatly.
Didn't Marx have good things to say about Balzac? Does anyone have the
quote handy?
I don't know if anyone has noticed. But Since July 29, Bob Herbert, in
his NY Times op-ed Columns has been giving some of the examples of the
oppressiveness of our criminal inustice system I've seen. His recent
stuff belongs on the front page as investigative reporting.
Unfortunately, NY
Bill Lear wrote:
On Friday, August 16, 2002 at 20:36:34 (-0700) Eugene Coyle writes:
Well, before the market went up your neighbor had $9,999,990 more money (in
this asset) than you did. Afterwards he has $19,999,9980 more. I think he
has done better than you have.
No, because
It seems to me that attacking something called Stalinphobia is more
the flame bait.
Michael Perelman wrote:
guaranteed flame bait???
On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 08:45:09PM +, Justin Schwartz wrote:
I think Stalinophobia means an unreasonable refusal to support Milosovic
and an incorrect
The actual law was that the first person to bring up Hitler was
automatically the loser of the debate. Since no one mentioned Stalin
until LP brought it up, does that mean this applies to him?
Michael Perelman wrote:
Someone once proposed -- I think they pronounce it a law -- that once the
pms wrote:
Cynthia for one, is running an incredibly bad campaign in a bid for
re-election. I don't know who's doing a better job of assuring her
defeat, the Repugs, the state Dem-repug-wannabees, or her campaign
manager. It's very sad.
Details please...
Thanks
Gar
Please be a little less Zen.
What is the lump of labor fallacy? Ok no one actually believed it; but
what is it that no one actually believed.
Tom Walker wrote:
Editor, the Wall Street Journal,
In a bold effort to vaccinate Americans against the insidious lump-of-labor
virus, the Wall
Since you brought up Oregon, I'm going to change the subject slightly.
An initiative has qualified for the November ballot (which thanks to
Oregon's vote my mail system most Oregonians will receive by the first
week of October) that would implement single payer Health in the state
of
This herring is so red it is back lit by glowing neon! There is no
anti-expertise position. The question is rule by experties. And
ultimately in the cases you mentioned, the expert give advice. But if
the patient is a dedicated Jehovahs witness, they have the right to go
on not being
joanna bujes wrote:
Jim wrote:
One thing we should do is to make sure that the experts don't restrict
the supply of education in order to shore up their status as experts.
You mean like the American Medical Association?
Joanna
Since we were talking about doctors, I'm sure
Worth remembering:
1) 55% of the population never owned stock - throughout the bubble.
2) Of those who did - the vast majority owned less than 25,000 in stock
- purchased through the 401 K plans they were given in place of
pensions, or via IRAs they were told to use in place of pensions.
And
Devine, James wrote:
does anyone know where I can find G.B. Shaw's theory of exploitation
(based on rent theory)?
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
If you want Shaw's own words, why not try The Intelligent Woman's Guide
to Socialism and Capitalism
Justin said
There are political technicians--Lydons Johnsons, Dick Morrises, Karl
Roves, who are political machers, who can make the system work to attain
particular ends. Thoise people need to be used and kept on a short
leash.
Why not take that attitude to experts in general?
I can't speak for Ellen, but I suspect she was talking more aboutr
government programs - especially since none of the sectors she mentions
can be universal without heavy government involvement.
I too would be interested if someone does know where such cross
comparisons are available.
Gar Lipow wrote:
I can't speak for Ellen, but I suspect she was talking more aboutr
government programs - especially since none of the sectors she
mentions can be universal without heavy government involvement.
I too would be interested if someone does know where such cross
Michael Pollak wrote:
snip
The second is whether GM crops should be admitted to the fields of India.
And specifically in this case, whether Bt cotton use should be expanded.
The argument for as I understand it is that it's cheaper because you can
spend less on pesticides. The
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Legalese is awful. It's not even English. But there were striitings in
America to make it more like English quite a while ago. The Legal
realists, like Jerome Frank and Thurman Arnold, were quite good writers,
following in the manner of their master Justice
July 27 -- WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A bankruptcy bill before the U.S. House
of Representatives that would make it harder for individuals to walk
away from their debts ran aground over an abortion related-provision
early on Saturday, congressional aides said. The bill will now have to
wait until
collapsed.
Bill Lear wrote:
On Friday, July 26, 2002 at 23:31:51 (-0700) Gar Lipow writes:
July 27 -- WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A bankruptcy bill before the U.S. House
of Representatives that would make it harder for individuals to walk
away from their debts ran aground over an abortion related
For me, the adoption of a MS economic development strategy appears to
be the only logical position given the total disrepute which socialist
planned economies have in the popular mind (despite their successes in
the early Soviet Union and under Ché in Cuba).
Agreed,
jks
Actually
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Why would be a such a great idea to have the demos tell college
professors how to run their shop? In most of this country, that would
result in the shut-down of biological departments, except for ag depts,
the conversion of most philosophy depts into bastions of
To this non-economist, this looks like really good solid stuff. Thanks
for forwarding it, Ian.
Ian Murray wrote:
http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/count.pdf
How Not to Count the Poor
Sanjay Reddy and Thomas Pogge
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gar in a recent post on Market Socialism and inequality (I
accidently erased the wrong post) made the statement that
inequality under market socialism would be worse than under
planning and used Jugoslavia as an example. Unfortunately for his
argument, this
OK - I found some GINI data on Yugoslavia, (A World Bank Spreadsheet).
Apparently the problem is that Eastern Bloc nation data from this period
is very unreliable.
Here are the Yugoslavia numbers:
Year
Low
High
1963
24.63
34.51
1964
23.00
23.00
1965
30.60
30.60
1966
23.00
27.20
Hydrogen is a way to store and transport now, not a way to create it.
Iceland does get a lot of it's energy from hydropower; the hydrogen
economy it envisions will be based upon hydropower and geothermal.
Michael Perelman wrote:
I was very surpised by this article. I would have thought
Carrol
Consider just one actual example -- me and my migraine headaches. Three
years ago I got hit with what was eventually diagnosed as atypical
migraine -- atypical in that instead of centering around one eye they
occurred on the top of my head, and they were several orders of
Justin Schwartz wrote:
I think there is more advanced argument to be made against market
socialism. If Justin has not been exiled from the list I would like a
chance to make it in argument against the market socialists.
p
OK, shoot. What's the argument?
If you remember, the
I hit send prematurely on my last post - but actually it is not a bad
place to break (other than ending a post with a sentence fragment). The
question of egalitarianism is of much broader interest than that of
market socialism.
Marx in the Gotha program, and a great many Marxists since have
Ian Murray wrote:
[from an interview with Phil Condit, CEO of Boeing in
yesterday's Guardian]
In the six years since he and his executive team put
together
Vision 2016, they have transformed Boeing from a maker of
airplanes into a systems integrator, a
One thing: I think in opposing this invastion, we should not refer to
stuff like Americans coming home in body bags, implying that this will a
tough invasion to carry out. If it turns out that the U.S. m iliatry has
an easy time destroying the current Iraq goverment do we then support
it? And
Hi, any email to your personal address is refused. (I used my reply
function.) It is telling me that my mail server at earthlink is
boycotted by your mail server. Just to let me know that I am neglecting
to reply to your email - I just cannot get through. I am having this
problem with other
Oh - and just to clarify, I know Michael used no such reference. It is a
general comment I thought important, and happened to come up in reply to
his post.
Gar Lipow wrote:
One thing: I think in opposing this invastion, we should not refer to
stuff like Americans coming home in body bags
couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag, so why are we going to
kill all those innocent people?
- Original Message -
From: Gar Lipow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 8:11 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:28022] Re: Re: Iraq
One thing: I think in opposing
Chris Burford wrote:
So there are contradictions within the camp of the admirers of market
socialism!
Umm, to be fair, speaking as an advocate of planning, there are equally
strong contradicitons among supporters of planning. For example I have
heard some planning advocates speak in
Justin Schwartz wrote:
Well, I've been arguing with folks hereabouts. Ia gree that some
anonmytity is possible under planning. However there is little under,
for example, the Albert-Hahnel and Devine models, both of which require
the consumer to justify her choices to the world.
Justin Schwartz wrote:
people should realize that Arrow's theory is a critique of _all_
collective
decision-making mechanisms, not just democracy. It also applies to
markets.
Can you think of a method of collective choice that isn't subject to the
theorem?
Um, how so? The
Well, yeah, if everyone is interested in continuing this discussion,
fine. I have not gotten much from it myself. The problem for me is that
the discussion has remained extremely abstract and has not done much
other than reinforce the prejudices people had when they started the
I don't think it is ahistorical to deal with the limits of the
possible. Most utopian socialists today are activists. And in fact, I
doubt that in the immediate issues, what we are fighting for today
Albert and Hahel, Justin, and Michael Perlman would find much to
disagree about. But if you
I am sorry, Gar. This is not a question of activist credibility. This is
not why I object to Looking Forward. It is about how socialism can be
achieved. I believe that it miseducates people to write elaborate models.
Marxists focus on strategies for revolution, not how future
joanna bujes wrote:
To take an example, I think Pete Seeger's songs had much greater
influence on working class consciousness...than any utopian novel.
I'm spacing...I meant Woodie Guthrie.
Joanna
Nmm, well regardless of what folk music represents today, there was a
time
I think there is more advanced argument to be made against market
socialism. If Justin has not been exiled from the list I would like a
chance to make it in argument against the market socialists.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would agree with Jim. While Michael may feel that the issue has
In all fairness the same anomymity is possible under planning. Sensible
proposals for planning generally do NOT abolish money (though they may
call it something else). Yes, I know you have been arguing with people
who do think money could be abolished; but this is rather as though I
argued
Points about Henry George:
1) There are modern Georgists out there; most of them suggestion taxing
not just land but natural resources in general -- in effect Green taxes.
2) Georgists wanted to tax not only land, but monopoly -- meaning
profit and interest.
3) I have not been able to track
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
Gar:
Carrol - I think you are overlooking the demand here. We are dealing
with a government doing the wrong thing against terrorist who have
killed a lot of people in the U.S. and successfully terrorized them.
We are opposed to the evil things this government
Sorry - did no realize this was a closed topic. I have replied to
several comments on my comments - but now that I see your post will
reply to no more on this list.
Michael Perelman wrote:
I thought that we had put this to bed.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 08:43:51PM -0800, Gar Lipow wrote
It strikes me that there is an information theory critique possible of
too free a market in capital flows that may be supplementary to the
other criticims. (This applies to both international and national
capital markets.) If markets are looked at as feedback mechanisms, then
you have a
Carrol Cox wrote:
. . . what do you pacifists and fatalists and revolutionary defeatists
suggest be done? Just let them be? Act nice? Invite them over for
coffee?
This simply baffles me. All I can do is give a series of anecdotes,
fictional and actual.
The nice thing about
In response to a post by Carroll, I said:
Weneed to be able to answer the question: what would you do if you were
in charge?.
Devine, James wrote in reply:
I sometimes say this is what I would do if I were in charge (such as not
terror-bombing Afghanistan) but I immediately qualify
Hard-headed types? Greg there hundreds, perhaps thousands of
groupsicals, with heads that are not only hard, but made of pure wood.
Greg Schofield wrote:
Bill, the problem is partly found in your answer.
That is you see proletarian socialism as the objective, as an abstraction which must
Marta Russell wrote:
Carrol Cox11/12/01 11:56 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Doyle Saylor wrote:
Greetings Economists,
I very much agree with Marta's comments. I would add that a
significant part of characterization of someone as a madman
discounts why someone comes to feel the way they do.
Carrol Cox wrote:
I think it is debatable whether the war in Europe had to go beyond the
successful establishment of the Normany invasion. What might have been
the result of a really open invitation to the Germans to negotiate?
Any settlement acceptable to Germany would have involved
Robin Hahnel uses it in his new book Panic Rules -- but I don't know
if he orginated it.
Rob Schaap wrote:
G'day all,
Ten minutes with today's US papers discloses that OPEC's cutting production by
a million barrels, rocketing insurance rates and ever more exacting loan
conditions are
Ken Hanly wrote:
I wonder what Louis P. thinks of all this?
speculation
Labor's Flag, the Worker's Flag is not so very red as you might think!
Labor's Flag, the people's Flag proudly waves the palest pink!
end speculation
(Note: normally when I do fowards I do not edit. In this case I've moved
address, and foswarding appeals to the bottom ,because I think the
content is so urgent.)
---
GREEN PARTY USA COORDINATOR DETAINED AT AIRPORT
PREVENTED BY
The towers employed a lot of undocumented workers whose families might
be deported if they report them as missing (or worse given
anti-terrorism legislation). So 5-6 thousand may not be so far off,
Karl Carlile wrote:
It now transpires that about 2000 less people were killed in tha attack on
http://www.zmag.org/whatsgoing.htm
What's Going On?
By Michael Albert
The U.S. response to September 11 seeks to benefit elites in the U.S.,
and, to a lesser degree, around the world. There are various goals.
-- Destroy the bin Laden network
-- Topple the Taliban
-- Build a coalition fighting
Not only do we not see a single untied International Capitalist class;
in the U.S. at least we do not see a single united U.S. capitalist
class. To make a simple minded argument -- if capitalists were
completely united, we would already be in concentration camps.
Chris Burford wrote:
At
I lost my job recently; by me it's a recession.
That is probably becasue the viruses are doing the mailing...
Jim Devine wrote:
It's a strange day when I seem to get more e-mail messages (from Tony
Theriault) with viruses (viri?) attached than I get pen-l messages...
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Robert Manning wrote:
Typically, a recession is defined by whether
friends/acquaintances lose their jobs. When we personally loose a job,
that's depression.
Robert D. Manning
Rochester Institute of Technology
I'd agree -- except I think the terms have shifted. Remember,
Michael, Are you sure everyone in To: header on this e-mail wanted their
e-mail addresses forwarded to umpteen other recipients, including mail
lists...?
http://www.theglobalsite.ac.uk/justpeace/
Not on NBC, ABC, CNN or Foxnews websites. doesn't mean it is not true
but...
Rob Schaap wrote:
I hear they're evacuating Chicago's Sears Tower now ... that true?
Rob.
Still no confirmation; at this point I'd say it is probably not so.
Rob Schaap wrote:
Gar Lipow wrote:
Not on NBC, ABC, CNN or Foxnews websites. doesn't mean it is not true
but...
There's an 'unconfirmed report' mentioned at http://finance.yahoo.com/mo,
that's all.
http://www.zmag.org/wiscalam.htm
To My Baby Girl, On the Day After
By Tim Wise
I was not where I needed to be last night. Not physically, and not
emotionally. My daughter is ten weeks old. And last night, and tonight
as well, only her mother will be able to hold her, and kiss her
goodnight,
Without being an authority: acts of war are ALWAYS excluded. (There are
probably exceptions through custom policies, such as that offered by
Lloyds.) Acts of terrorism are SOMETIMES excluded - depending upon
whether the exclusion is written into the specific policy.
BTW - what is hydro=nuclear?
Not impossible, but I would wait for some info on methodology and sample
size before accepting this as fact...
Jim Devine wrote:
from SLATE, 9/10/01:
USA [TODAY] ... leads ... with a story nobody else fronts: A University of
Pennsylvania study out today estimating that about 325,000 U.S.
I tend to very suspicious of this sort thing, after the McMartin fiasco
and so on. Not that there is not a great deal of child abuse, and not
that it is not horrible and worthy of being fought. But exaggerating
the extent of it seems to be a basis for a lot of destruction of Civil
liberties.
The term is much older than that. Tom Haydens run for the Senate, used
the term Corporate Welfare . (also Crime in the Suites.)
Max Sawicky wrote:
No. Bob Reich started it in 1993. Unfortunately.
mbs
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Last point on this: I wonder if Chile et. al. really fell because they
were not repressive enough? Could it have something to do with the fact
that in all the cases mentioned, the military were reactionary, and thus
ready to overthrow the democratically chosen govenrments? (The only
exception to
Doug Henwood wrote:
Carrol Cox wrote:
These states did not fall _because_ they were democratic; they fell
because the U.S. undermined or attacked them. But those who are all hot
for third-world anti-imperialist democracy need to explain how these
states might have survived. It's easy
Actual there are some answers to this that do not require utopian
assumptions about human nature. Basically, there are anarchists who
distinguish between state and 'polity'. So the commune up the stream
can't put up a nuclear power plant because it is part of a larger polity
that votes against
I think we are getting two definitions of material want confused here.
Can material want in the sense of people wanting material things they
can't have be eliminated? I would say that Marx is agnostic on this
question.
But we can eliminate material want in two other senses. One is that
everyone
Hi Rob.
Our current peak does not begin to match that of the sixties (at least
here in the U.S -- which incidentally is still miles ahead of you
Aussies in the scum sweepstakes). Among the reasons -- people have to
work a hell of a lot harder for survival than was required in sixties.
This
of purposes. In other words, it would
be a failure to construct a rational and fair system of
rationing.
mbs
Gar Lipow wrote:
Also there is one other point. In the U.S, anyway the increase in the
ratio of seniors to others is projected to occur alongside a drop in the
ratio of children
Just to make a point though -- in fact business majors were not
toughened a great deal. In fact a marketing major is considered one of
the easiest majors you can take.
The majors which have been made the most difficult (compared to 30 years
ago) are English and literature majors. To a lesser
I tend to think that government (socialist or otherwise) will be at
least as repressive as it's population will tolerate, and that when
under attack from outside, a population will tend to tolerate a great
deal. In short revolutions under attack from a strong outside force will
tend to be a
Also there is one other point. In the U.S, anyway the increase in the
ratio of seniors to others is projected to occur alongside a drop in the
ratio of children to population -- so that the total dependency ratio
is projected to be a only a tiny bit higher than at present...
Michael Perelman
I can suggest some stories.
One is aggressiveness of treatment. With very serious illness, there are
often broad choices within acceptable medical practice. A lot of the
judgments involved are explicitly social ones. For example, take two
people needing a transplant, same age, same basic
Health Care for All Oregon has finally passed through the legal process
required to submit an iniative to the voter in Oregon. Within 3 weeks we
will be circulating petitions to place on the ballot Measure 27: Measure
27 will kick the insurance bureaucrats out of the health care business
and
Wow -- that 18% (better than average!) does not even include any
compliance costs by providers. Not to mention profits as a percentage of
premiums. So Best's Insurance Reports would be my source for at least
some of what I'm looking for. Now if I can just find some sources for
the provider end of
The usual figures for Admin costs+insurance profits+hefty CEO salaries
in U.S. health care given by single payer groups are 25%. But US
department of health and human services gives figures of around 5% (not
counting profits and CEO salaries, but still...)
Anyone have some insight into how
Ken -- when accusing others of writing gibberish it is good to avoid it
yourself. *Ethanol* is what is produced from grain, and sugarcane.
*Methanol* is an alcohol produced through destructive distillation --
usually of coal or wood or garbage.
Ken Hanly wrote:
Well reallyI thought that
could benefit from more mass transit?
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Date sent: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:23:29 -0800
From: Gar Lipow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject
tervention seem overwhelming. The belief that laypersons cannot
rationally hold opinions on these subjects leads to the kind of "all
opinions are equal" stuff that insists that creationism be taught
alongside the theory of evolution in biology classes -- or that both be
omitted.
Carr
Michael -- there is not doubt that it will require time and resources to
implement such strategies. That is why enviromentalists campaigned to
start the transition to such technoligies back in 70's; if it had been
started then we would have been thirty years into the transistion. But
enough
If there is a crisis -- it won't be particularly good for socialism, or
even for liberalism. Depends on how far it goes of course; if it comes
in 20 years, with 12 billion people suddenly trying to survive as hunter
gatherers, then neither capitalism or socialism will be the issue.
The question
New Recipe for Texas Presidential Omelet: First steal 12 eggs...
New Presidential Theme Song: Hail to the Thief...
New election standard: Three Strikes and you're President
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And does Yoshie really believe that we can raise all the current
population to a decent level of material living without destroying the
world ecology?
The answer to the above is definitely yes -- the obstacles are
political, not technical.
I don't have time to
I'm going to add one minor refinement to Carrols argument (for which of
course he is in no way responsible).
The lesser of two evils arguement is one that will be available to the
Democratic party as long as we have a two party system. This is because
the Republicans are guaranteed to always
Doyle Saylor wrote:
Greetings Comrades,
The form of e-lists is familiar enough. Some people have remarked on
how the lists themselves don't serve as good organizing tools (see Carrol
Dunno what Carrol thinks - but I've made similar remarks, and it is NOT
that e-lists make poor
lly strong amongst the intellectual castes,
academics, journalists and such.
Carrol Cox wrote:
Gar Lipow wrote:
There are a few people who have come up with answers -- including Robin Hahnels
and Michael Albert's Parecon scheme. However whenever it
brought up we get into an endless loop o
ell from our distant standpoint, they opposing
capitalism somewhat less of an act of insanity, or of pure moral
grandeour.
Carrol Cox wrote:
Gar Lipow wrote:
There are a few people who have come up with answers -- including Robin Hahnels
and Michael Albert's Parecon scheme. However wheneve
Jim Devine wrote:
Frankly, I think the Left would do better if we could mobilize super- an
supra-natural forces. Wicca anyone?...
Unfortunately, the one Wiccan of my accquaintence is a dedicated
Goreista, and believes Bush to represent an
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