I see a lot of commonality between Mao's "On Practice" and Dewey's "The
Logic of Judgements of Practice" in his _Essays in Experimental Logic_
(1910?).
Cheers
Jim Blaut
Jim D:
Nowhere in the world is there a "self-sufficient peasant."
Jim B
Ricardo's 9-part serial critique of George Grantham's view of European
agricultural history is puzzling. If he wants to criticize Grantham, why
doesn't he read what Grantham has published? A short email comment by
Grantham forwarded from another list (by me) in a fairly specific context
of
Henwood discovers class!
James M. Blaut wrote:
Don't try to
slither out from under by pointing fingers at the bad old sheiks.
Yes, they do interfere with a model of good vs. evil, don't they? But
I guess if class processes don't matter much in the core countries,
they don't matter much
Doug: You haven't addressed the problem: a model of self-sustaining
capitalism without cheap oil from the Mideast, Venezuela, Nigeria, etc. Or:
broaden it: without cheap Thirdworld resources, cheap labor... Don't try to
slither out from under by pointing fingers at the bad old sheiks.
Ajit:
James M. Blaut wrote: For Brenner, the arrival of capitalism quite
magically
produces technological inventiveness. Effectively, then, he imputes
unique inventiveness to Europeans the moment they are toiuched by the
magic wand of (what he thinks of as) capitalism. I call this
Neo
Nichael:
Good point.
Before I leave the thread (head held high; tail also held high), there's
one point that needs to be made.
India and some other countries were seriously underdeveloped during the
colonial period. For India this has beern documented with studies of
colonial-era famines. But
Doug:
There's stats and stats -- stats that prove that things are getting better;
stats that prove that things are getting worse.
Has it evcer occurred to you that all of the elites of the world, and their
tame economists, WANT statistics that prove that things are getting better?
I gave a
Suddently this list has turned to the question of whether capitaliusm is,
or is not, improving the lives of the majority of humans.
I hope everyone reading this stuff understands the POLITICAL nature of this
economistic jabber. Statistics won't resolve the issues -- we can assemble
statistics to
Sawicky's valiant defense of the status quo doesn't need much in the way of
an answer, mainly because the argument is so self-contradictory that even a
cultural-historical geographewr like me can see the contradictions.
"The premise that capitalism is fundamentally incapable
of delivering the
Brad: "Do you mean that you don't believe that material standards of living
are higher and childhood mortality rates lower today in India,
Botswana, and Egypt than they were in 1975?
"Or do you mean that you don't care? That real GDP per capita
estimates and childhood mortality are not
Jim D:
I just don't agree with your theory of money for the 16th century. Sorry.
Brenner no Malthusian? He's a neo-Malthusian of sorts. Here are some
citations from my Brenner paper:
[Note]7In Brenner (1985a): "Nor can there be any question
but that the Malthusian model, in its own
Jim D:
I've known many peasants in several countries of LaTin America and
Southeast Asia whose production most certainly was NOT included in GDP. GDP
works fine for multinational activities and export-oriented activiites,
etc., but thats not what I'm talking about.
But of course I'm just a
Michael:
All well and good, but of the 20 or so people who have participated in the
Brenner debate on this list, I'd venture that maybe 5 or 6 have actually
read Brenner ,mostly his NLR article of 20+ years ago; and maybe 3 or 4
have read him in connection with this debate.
I can't help but
Brad:
Cuba doesn't qualify as a country that is dominated by world capitalism.
Nor is it really one of the poorer countries if you consider life
expectancy, education, and the like.
I agree with Louis about the relative meaninglessness of comparing GDPs in
the Third world. Back in Papa Doc's
Steve:
1) I most emphatically and positively was NOT including China in the
category of "poorer countries." That was your phrase and I took it as
implying the Third world countries that are suffering under world
capitalist imperialism.
2) "How does one discern between one who is advancing a
Michael:
There's a lot of fog and confusion around this discussion on this list. OF
COURSE Brenner doesn't deny that colonial exploitation has been important
for capitalism.
He denies that the origins and early development of capitalism had anything
to do with the non-European world. In his
Steve: "The argument that no development takes place in poorer
regions of the world political economy is hardly an argument that carries
much weight."
Allowing for exceptions, the great mass of people in "the poorer regions of
the world" are not enjoying any development.
Moreover, although
Jim Devine:
If you studied with Johnny Murra, you should know a lot more about Latin
America than you give evidence of knowing, but thats beside the point which
is:
Although I agree withg Sid Mintz on the capitalist nature of the sugar
plantation system, one does not need to define slaves as
Jim Devine:
"I'll forward this to Bob B."
"...But the analogy must be wrong, since Louis says
it's wrong. The Line has come down from the Central Committee."
Jim D. is so anxious to vindicate Brenner, not only on the rise of
capitalism (only in Europe) but also on the benefits that core
Rod and Rob or vice versa:
Today we have lots of racism but very few racists. Praxis is the thing, not
ideology.
Jim B
Michael:
I woulsdn't have called that stuff invective. But I'll mind my manners.
Apologetically
Jim Blaut
1) Ricardo contra Grantham: " Just want to make a few additional points on
the question of agricultural yields in Europe... as Cipolla
warns us, these figures (on yields per unit of seed) are "not based
on comprehensive data but on scattered information derived from a
relatively small number
Michael:
You might look at the section in my Brenner critique entitled "Neo-Weberian
Euro-Marxism." Brenner is Weberian in a very specific way. He sees
capitalism descending on England, as it were by parachute, after which the
minds of English yeoman farmers suddenly are opened and a
Landes on clocks:
The period 1000-1500 A.D. in Europe saw "an economic
revolution ...such as the world had not seen since
the...Neolithic."60 This, says Landes, was the period
when the unique inventivesss of Europeans truly came to
flower. The initiating conditions were the uniting of
PART 1 of 3
This article was published in ANTIPODE: A RADICAL JOURNAL OF
GEOGRAPHY, 26,4,(1994):351-76. Copyright Editorial Board, ANTIPODE: A
RADICAL JOURNAL OF GEOGRAPHY, 1991.
ROBERT BRENNER IN THE TUNNEL OF TIME
J.M. BLAUT
Euro-Marxism
Robert Brenner is a Marxist, a follower of
Draft of a chapter in the forthcoming book, _The
Colonizer's Model of the World, Volume 2: Eight
Eurocentric Historians_ (New York, Guilford Press, mid-
year 2000). Please do not reproduce without permission.
__
Draft of a chapter in the forthcoming book, _The
Colonizer's Model of the World, Volume 2: Eight
Eurocentric Historians_ (New York, Guilford Press, mid-
year 2000). Please do not reproduce without permission.
__
PART III.
Like everyone else who writes about the medieval
origins of capitalism, Brenner reports the class
struggle between serfs and lords and registers the fact
that a change in class-structure was underway, but he
hardly goes farther. The essence of his
PART II.
Brenner reinforces his argument with what he
calls, rather ingenuously, "comparative analysis" --
ingenuously because all of the places compared with one
another lie within Northern Europe, and true comparison
would have to look at all possible cases of
Carrol's latest post, in which he denounces me for believing that
capitalism has been around since the days of the Roman Empire, has
persuaded me that there's no point in any further debate on these issues on
this list. I've written in about 20 postings on this list in the past week
or so, and
This article was published in ANTIPODE: A RADICAL JOURNAL OF
GEOGRAPHY, 26,4,(1994):351-76.
PART I.
ROBERT BRENNER IN THE TUNNEL OF TIME
J.M. BLAUT
Euro-Marxism
Robert Brenner is a Marxist, a follower of one
tradition in Marxism that is as diffusionist, as
reate regular patterns of behavior, and that the discipline of
the monasteries and the army created the model for factory discipline."
"James M. Blaut" wrote:
Michael:
I don't know whether you're referring to David Landes's thesis about
medieval European clocks. He falsely asserts
Michael:
I didn't make mmyself clear. I didnt imply that you are according Europeans
a premodern superiority. What I was saying, was that the category of
arguments which cliam that something was true about European thinking,
behasvior, or social organization, that gave Europe a unique leg up
Michael:
I have to disagree with you (politely). I've been on this list only a week,
so I certainly have gaps in understanding. But I may also have the
perspective advantage of someone looking in from the doorway as they enter.
Wojtek is persistently upholding imperialism and generally
Nathan:
Three comments.
You miss the main point. Lou is responding to the right-wing views being
put forward by Wojtek on racism, "Third World dummies," etc., etc. As I see
it, Lou is asking in essence: where the hell is this guy coming from? and
wy does he choose to push these view on a
Michael:
Right. But what are those "techniques" and "conditions?" If "conditions"
means the natural environment, I have a whole quiver full of answers that
drive home the fact that Europe's environment was not more productive than
that of other places.
But this word "techniques" is probably the
Rod:
"The 'anti-imperialist'
'anti-racist' rhetoric is not what it claims to be. It reinforces racism
and imperialism by adopting and affirming the categories of the racists and
imperialists. To attack racism you have to attack the concept of race
People are people is all anyone has to
Nathan:
I think you undervalue the power and progressiveness of the old Civl Rights
Movement, but let that be.
After an academic gets tenure, he or she has lots of wriggle room. If you
don't have special financial needs, such as a large family, big debts,
etc., you have a choice: you can devote
Barkley:
I too am wearying of this debate, so you'll have to settle for a
lighthearted response, to wit:
"... the major question I have with Jim Blaut's key
argument, that it was "dumb" (geographical) luck that let
the Europeans grab the lead..."
Geography isn't dumb. Thirdworlders are dumb
Carrol:
Imperialism is NOT a "policy." It IS a central feature of modern
capitalism.
That is why anti-imperialist ideas and actions are central to the struggle
against capitalismm.
Jim B
Rod:
Thanks for the good message. A lot of what I say is uncalled for and most
of it is ungrammatical.
Ricardo can speak for himself. He will, I am sure, tell us that he accepts
the Weberian idea of unique, pre-modern, European rationality as a fact and
as a factor. We had several pillow fights
Barkley:
Ricardo and I acquired a clear understanding of eavch other's position many
months ago on another list. He simply believes that European had some
qualties of the Weberian sort (rationality, etc.) before the modern era and
this implied that europe was bound to rise first asnd fastest. I
Rod:
I've got strogn criticisms of Eric Jones's _The European Miracle_ in my
book _The Colonizer's Model of the World._ Chapter 2 is entitled "The Myth
of the European Miracle."
On this particular point, he is resurrecting an old idea that has been
shown to be total false. All modern
invented new machinery that was adopted
for use in the textile industry. What triggered that? Were all
those inventions just sitting around waiting to be picked up
once demand rose sufficiently?
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: James M. Blaut [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: INTERNET:[EMAIL
Michael:
I don't know whether you're referring to David Landes's thesis about
medieval European clocks. He falsely asserts that they regulated labor time
-- actually nobody regulated labor time until there was the discipline of
factory labor and essentially an industrial revolution. Landes --
Jim D:
I don't know where I got the idea that you teach in Canada. I hope I'm not
insulting you OR Canada. Apologies.
Jim B
Michael:
Me and Jim D electronically kissed and made up off-list.
Hamilton said the gold in Spain came mainly as rain. Seriously, I don't
remember what he said about the military.
Your idea about gold and silver in England affecting production sounds
sensible. It also soun ds like Hamilton if
Rod Hay:
Are you implying that Ricardo is a Weberian on some lists (H-world and WSN)
but a Marxist on Pen-L? I don't have time to dredge up his many eloquent
postings in defense of Weber's theory of unique European "rationality." He
might want to make the argument here himself.
In any event,
List: If anyone fails to see the dripping Eurocentrism in the following,
they should have their eyes examined.
Jim B
"[To] defeat Eurocentrism they defy
the common sense and claim that non-Europeans are or have been on a par
with the Europeans in the European-defined game. In so doing, however,
Jim D: I've summarized my position in the post that you are responding to.
I don't have time to elaborate it. If you weant to go further, I'd ask you
to read my Brenner critique --and, by the way, re-read Brenner's three
articles, because he doesn't say what you say he says. About: landlords.
Michael:
I'll answer your query about towns if I have timetonight when I get back
from school. There is a lot of mostly new literature that deals with this
matter. A good place to start is Goody, THE EAST IN THE WEST. Also check
out Rowe on HANKOW., Twichell, D., and Mote, f., eds. THE MING
Ricardo:
I don't have time now to respond to your long and very nearly collegial
message, but I'll try to do that tonight, and thank you for spelling my
name right.
I'll begin however, by postting the following email sent by George
Grasntham to the EH-R list last year on the subject of that
Barkley:
I, too, wonder why Italy got frozen out. Venice actually continued to
import and sell Asian spices (land route) at about the same rate as before
Vasco da Gama throughout the next century, so we can't blame the Portuguese
sea trade (very much?). I don't know the answer. Like you say,
Barkley:
Responses to two of your posts of today:
1) I admit that the comment about technology always having been available
before it was needed was a throw-away line. But BASICALLY I think this was
true with, of course, heavy qualification.
I've worked a lot on peasant agriculture and
Steve:
Back when that debate was taking place, the late 70s and early 80s, there
wasn't much of an inkling that colonial liberation movements, after winning
state power, would -- in some cases -- fall back into a new sort of
neocolony-cum-bourgeois society. So the attack by Brenner and the other
Michael and Jim C:
Frank King's book is the best intrudctioin to southern Chinese (including
hong Kong) peasant farming as you can find in English. I assign it
freuqnetly. Also, it is totally free of eurocentism: here is an American
agronomist, around 1900, expressing admiration for, and
Rod Hay:
" Gold is only wealth in certain social arrangements. Northwest Europe had
those arrangements. "
True.
"A lot of other places didn't."
True.
"The only possible exception is China."
Dead wrong. Bad geography.
"Wojtek asked if it was only the gold why didn't South
America
Michael:
"Jim Devine set an excellent example of how debate should proceed. Do
not characterize others in ways that they would not accept themselves."
Like, for instance, calling other listers "racists" (Wojtek)
Dobb, as I read him could be charged
with Eurocentrism."
Dobb had insufficient
"Technically true. Although imho the second/third world distinction is
more racist than Blaut Co. make of the first world."
wojtek
More racist than me?
Jim Blaut
--- Internet Header
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Received: from
Barkley:
I'd agree that the slave plantation system (combined with forced cotton
planting in India after 1857) was in the long run more important than the
16th-century gold and silver, mainly because it involved millions of
plantAtion workers, slave and non-slave, refininery workers, transport
Doug:
It isn't fair to faulty the critique of Eurocentrism by saying thaT it
doesn't correct other problems, like class issues in the European world.
Thats like saying, when we get a cure for AIDS, "oh, thats not really
important because we haven't cured cancer."
One thing at a time -- or, I
Louis:
You say " In Brenner's very, very lengthy article, there is nearly ZERO
discussion of Latin America, Asia and Africa. "
Actually, in Brenner's lon g essay, there is NO MENTION WHATEVER OF ASIA,
AFRICA, OR LATIN AMERICA except for one comment about Barbados after 1650
-- after the the
Michael:
I am tense, as you may have noticed though I try to hide it...
Sorry about giving you aggravation. And sorry about the crtuches.
"James M. Blaut" wrote:
EITHER europe was more advanced, more progressive,
more graced with environmental qualities, etc., than the rest of
Barkley:
You always bring a breath of fresh air into this miasmic discussion.
I'm working on a third volume of The Colonizer's Model and one section will
deal with the industrial revolution. I'll argue -- this is not partiucalry
original -- that the run-up to, and early stages, of the
Jim D:
"The introduction to the Blaut article that Wojtek was reacting to could be
interpreted as criticizing Brenner and the like simply because he doesn't
like Brenner's anti-third-worldist politics. This is an endless loop that
should be avoided."
Don't you think you should save your
Michael:
A reasoned even if flawed argument, presented in a civil, collegial manner
-- a rarity on this list, as you'll agree -- deserves a respectful answer,
though I haevn't time to go into detail.
"Why does want single factor have to cause capitalism? That approach seems
only slightly more
Charles:
Why do you call this a dead issue?
Jim
Jim D.:
What is your opinion of the charges against Catholicism that those Catholic
dummies were inferior and didn/t/couldm't invent capitalism because they
didn't possess the Protestant ethic? Wasn't that bigotry, racism,
prejudice?
Jim B
On progress:
It may just be that different meanings of the words "progress," "hope," and
"faith" are in play here but I really fear that matters are a lot more
disturbing than that.
If someone merely "hopes" for a better world and considers it a
"possibility," it may well be that this person
Doug says:
Charles Brown wrote:
England and Holland had both colonial systems and free labor , and
so they were able to capitalistically accumulate the colonial
treasures of Spain and Portugal when the later were not able to
because they did not establish free labor.
Sounds right to me.
Wojtek:
"those third world dummies"
"Eurocentrrism is a straw man"
That says it all.
As of this minute I'm ceasing to respond to your s... stuff, just as I
decided some time ago to ignore Duchesne (on H-world and wsn), who at least
is civil.
Jim Blaut
Jim D. and Carrol:
On progress:
How does the song go... "A better world's in birth."
Jim B
Michael:
When I suggested that part of our problem is focusing too much on England,
I wasn't referring to the discussion on this list. I was referring to other
work, and especially Brenner, for whom thetransition from feudalism to
capitalism took place, not in Europe as a whole, not in
Jim D:
"Brenner is talking about the full blooming of industrial
capitalism"
He seems to be talking about rural England in the 15th-16th centuries. Not
about full-blooming industrial capitalism.
Haven't you mixed your metaphors here?
Jim B
Wojtek doesn't seem to be able to control his tendency to mystify with
grand-sounding statements that mean nothing, combined with his tendency to
throw out childish insults to other penners.
"...construct units of analysis that allow for empirical comparisons, that
is, examining the effects of
Jim D.: If you really want to discuss Brenner, you ought to read his two
long _Past Present_ essays and the criticisms of them in _The Brenner
Debate_ volume. The NLR paper is a polemic. You're also invited to read my
refutation of Brenner's theory of the rise of capitalism ("Robert Brenner
in
Steve:
Hi!
I don't suggest that someone can be Eurocentric on the matter of European
and non-European history and not be progressive on contemporary struggles.
I've looked at a lot of writing about history in various Marxist sectors,
including the CPUSA, Trotskyist sectors, social democrats,
Carrol:
It seems that comradely types want to find some reason for disagreeing with
me when no real reason exists. I'm not accusing you of ANYTHING.
I was answering an uunfortunate off-the-cuff comment by Charles.
"This, I have to say respectfully, is wrong: 'Thus, whether those other
areas
Jim D:
I'll not name names. But scratch a Weberian and thats what you'll find.
I think any Marxist has to have some belief in "progress" -- its another
way of saying social evolution. Capitalism will turn into socialism or
barbarism.
Cheerlessly
Jim
Barkley:
Silver and (less importantly) gold were only significant in the 16th
century and the beginning of the 17th. Slave-produced sugar wasa much more
important in the 17th century. The importance of Portuguese trading
activcities in Asia has been romanticized and inflated: the accumulatioin
Jim D (but Doug might want to take notice also):
Responses to two of your posts of today:
(1) You're absolutely right that "factories in the field" are just as
capitalist as factories in the city. But I repeat: Brennerr is talking
about pre-industrial times, the 15th and 16th centiuries, not
Charles:
This, I have to say respectfully, is wrong:
"Thus, whether those other areas would have become capitalist on their own
is a moot point or somewhat dead issue."
Its a dead issue if we don't worry about contemporary beliefs, Marxist and
non-Narxist, that Europeans always have been the
Barkley:
" Of course the reason that it was the Dutch East
Indies was the the Dutch displaced the Portuguese
in the area of most fevered search, the actual Spice
Islands which are located in modern Indonesia. Of
course the Dutch did not entirely displace the Portuguese,
as the pathetic case of
Steve:
You wrote: "James,
What are the implications (as you see them) for the Chinese political
economy at present of China and Europe being roughly equal at the turn of
the 18th century?
"In China, this is a big bone of contention for Dengists, something they
love to harp on...China went
Michael:
I take your point. But its hard to draw on my abundant stores of humor when
the issues being discussed are so profoundly important and comntroversial.
I apologize to the list if on occasion I growl and mutter.
Michael, hopefully you'll be with me at the conference on the rise of
Europe
Rod:
If you take the total bundle of conditions that -- we now know in hindsight
-- would lead to economic and technological development, and then weigh the
European bundle and compare it with the Chinese, Indian, etc., bundles,
you'd find, I think, that they weighed about the same in 1500.
Michael:
I can't agree with this:
"I see no reason why we have to stubbornly insist on either/or
positions. Spain stole gold and did not develop, as everybody agrees,
and I would add, because it did not have the appropriate social
relations in place to develop. England did because it had
I've tried my best to make my position clear but a number of people on this
list either didn't read ANYTHING that I posted or they're so outraged at my
attack on their cherished European cultural heritage and mother and apple
pie that they don't bother to understand the message and instead try
More ripostes from Jim B:
Post #11594Carrol. "...Jim Blaut's empiricism." What isthe
message -- that I try to bring evidence into a
discussion? Carrol makes me out an empiricist. Wojtek
attacks me for not being empirical. You can't win.
577 Sam P. You're confusing
"At the risk of Michael's wrath I will ask Jim B. one more question. Why do
you insist on translating "different" into "superior." Is it for the
emotional charge that it gives your argument?"
Rod
Although I've said this now many times, I'll say it again. Eurocentric
views of premodern Europe
To Wojtek:
#11530: You claim to be (unlike me) "an empirical
scientist." Try to get your facts straight. In c.1550
Western and Central Europe (with Italy) was an economic
unit as far as finances, merchant capital, and
manufacturing were concerned. Throughout the Middle Ages
the principal
Jim D:
I don't think there was an agricultural revolution in England. There was
agricultural EVOlution in harmony with other changes taking place, but not
as n important causal force. Nor is Brenner's pseudo-class analysis of any
help. To claim that capitalism was invented by English tenant
Ah! Doug joins the fray!
All regions that possessed the more or less protocaspitalist
characteristics of Europe and were maritime oriented like the relevant
parts of Europe -- all of them had the "urge" to make profits in any way
possible, including taking slaves. But the Europeans got the big
The following are very, very brief comments or rejoinders,
listed by # and author;
362 Jim D. See my earlier comment that the slave labor
basically anteceded industrial wage labor (England) --
apples and oranges. Also: I think force plays a BIG role in
the way capitalism tries to keep down the
More responses from Jim B:
#387 Charles (and Barkley): The idea that the Europeans
pre1500 were uniquely "aggressive and rapacious" is,
unfortunately, a very dangerous notion. It concedes
the main argument of reactionaries and of course the
racists: namely, that Europeans had
Bill:
THANK GOD (AND KARL AND FRED) ANOTHER GEOGRAPHER ON THIS LIST!!!
Cheerfully
Jim B.(mere earth-hugging geographer)
Jim D:
You're right. I just got a bit testy with Wojtek. Not all Eurocentrism in
Weberian, and Weber himself gets the blame for a lot of earlier bad ideas.
Weber is in the foreground here because Ricardo keeps waving him in our
faces.
And my one-liner about internal forces was not sufficiently
Wojtek:
Yes, you do, as you say, need to do some more research if you're going to
argue the way you do. Every single point you make has been disputed in the
literature and much of it has been flatly refuted, but you aren't aware of
that fact. So I cannot just take up your conventional (but
Answering Wojtek (450)
"I am not quite sure what are you trying to demonstrate in
this and related threads:- that slavery and colonial
exploitation created economic benefits for slave owners and
pludereres? - that seems an obvious and uninteresting
conclusion."
Thats not what I'm talking
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