The London Times writes:
...The new government needs to privatise inefficient public services
and industry, starved of capital and management. Privatisation will
be uniquely awkward, because Serbia's public sector is not owned
solely by the state. It shares ownership rights with trade
I think Ken should have also pointed out that Alberta was the one
area of Canada that was largely settled by Americans who
migrated to the territory (it was not a province until 1905) around
the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of
December 6, 2000
Advertisement
The Department of Economics at the University of Manitoba invites
applications for a full-time tenure track appointment at the rank of
Assistant Professor in one or more of the areas of history of economic
thought, economic
Gene,
There was an article in todays Winnipeg Free Press on the port of
Churchill. I will excerpt a bit since it deals specifically with a
couple of questions you asked. The article is about the province
attempting to get better insurance provisions from Lloyds for ships.
"The 2000 season
Date sent: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:15:34 -0800
From: Eugene Coyle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: Eco Economics
To: Pen-L Pen-l [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:6678] Canadian
Max,
You neglected to mention _The State of Working America_. I am
teaching labour economics and using the Canadian version of it
(_Falling Behind: The State of Working Canada, 2000) which is
quite excellent.
Paul
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
From: "Max
Gene referred to a paper he had written prior to the California (and
Alberta) debacles predicting the problems on the basis of sound
economic analysis. The paper would probably, therefore, respond
to all the questions raised by Beatty. I wonder if we could prevail
upon Gene to post the
Justin,
I had assumed that David's request for an apology was meant in
humour, and my response on this was meant to also be in the way
of jest. I am, in any case, one of the first to point to the damage
economists do to society and the ecology in the name of economic
"efficiency" but in
Michael,
Here is an editorial from the highly conservative Lethbridge Herald
on deregulation of electricity in Alberta.
Paul
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Lethbridge Herald
Friday, December 22,
David Shemano, like most economists, particularly right-wing
economists just doesn't get it. Raising the price of energy through
these mechanisms only transfers income from the poor to the rich
owners of the power utilities and gas companies. Since there are
no alternatives to power to heat
David Shermano wrote:
First of all, I am not a right-wing economist, I am a right-wing corporate
bankruptcy lawyer. I demand an apology.
I offer a profound apology. And also an apology to right-wing
economists for confusing them with lawyers.
To quote Tom Paxton:
"In ten years we're
Aw, Shucks,
Just because I am a westerner.
Paul Phillips
From: "Max Sawicky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:5859] RE: Re: Quiz
Date sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:23:05 -0500
Send reply to: [EMAIL
The discussion on co-ops has long deviated from Norm's original
questions which, I don't believe, have ever been addressed. The
question is why would one want to organize and support a co-op.
Now being a post-Autaustic economist, I go out and look at the
real world and ask, why did I, you,
Tawney, _The Rise of the Gentry_
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
So, are we saying that the main source of personnel for the bourgeois class as it
rises up out of feudalism and starts to make capitalism is the feudal ruling class of
lords ? And that it was not so much the
Sounds like Adam the Smith, to me.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Max Sawicky)
To: "PEN-L (E-mail)" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:5821] Quiz
Date sent:
Property rights are not only a relationship, but also are a bundle of
rights. There is no such thing as simple private property.
Privatizing property, as Proudhom declared in 1849, is "theft" --"la
propriete, c'est le vol."
Eric Roll notes, Proudhon
"accepted the view that labour
Arthur K. Davis wrote an article/chapter in a book if I remember the
title correctly as *American Radicals* on Veblen. Part of the title
of that chapter is "the Marxian Key" or something like that. I have
an offprint copy that Art gave me but I don't know if I can find it to
give the full
Nathan,
Looking from the outside, whatever the cost to Americans, getting
rid of Madeline Albright has got to be a welfare gain to the rest of
the world. It is surely worth 4 years of Bush to get rid of that
person before she brings more disaster on the rest of the world.
Paul Phillips,
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:20:17 -0800
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Jesse Helms is Sparking a Real Constitutional Crisis - The
Norm,
If you want to study co-ops as a system, complete with their own
credit union bank and education system, have a look at the history
and success of the Mondragon co-ops in Spain. With all their
limitations, this is probably the best example of what you are
looking for. I would also
Could anyone give me in a short one or two paragraph digest
a) what was Microsoft charged with;
b) what was it convicted of; and
c) what was the remedy proposed.
i.e. what sin against neoclassical orthodoxy did it transend.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Yea Louis,
But we don't all agree with Engels on this point (and in fact, many
of us may actively disagree?).
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Date sent: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 15:48:03 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Louis
Like Ken, I belong to two credit unions and only one co-op (a
gasoline retail co-op that returns 5c a litre (approx 20 cents a US
gallon) to the membership. I also partially shop at an (aboriginal)
retail grocery, workers co-op and patronize, when I can, a worker
co-op courier service. By
Barkely,
But isn't that the point. Here is the EU trying to right an historic
wrong by helping small producers rather than an exploitative US
Corporation?
Paul
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Heck, they were just trying to keep
out United Fruit-shipped bananas quite
Coops are not so dangerous that a lender
would forego their business.\
mbs
Max,
You should hear/see the venom hurled by private business
whenever the provincial government threatens to extend the same
small business subsidies to co-ops as it does to private
businesses. Quite nasty.
Norm,
Let me also put in a plug for what I would consider a classic in the
"applying Marx to Socialist transformation" literature -- Branko
Horvat's 1982 _The Political Economy of Socialism_ (M.E.
Sharpe). It contains some of the same ideas as _Against
Capitalism_ but to my mind is much
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:32:34 -0800
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Kostunica blames West for fighting - The Daily Telegraph
H. Will
From a column by Jordan Wheeler, a Cree Indian columnist with
the Winnipeg Free Press, November 26, 2000.
"Until environment affects profits, it won't be fixed"
When I was a kid I knew an old woman who remembered life in the
late 1800s. She once sat on the prairie with her grandmother as a
Doug,
I think there is something missing in this whole debate. There are
many reasons for discouraging smoking outside of moral
prescription or attempting to design politically-correct personal
behaviour. As a person who is subject to asthma I am violently
allergic to second-had smoke. My
Anthony,
I believe one of the biggest shortagers is of Tylenol (or its generic
alternative.) We are also going to Cuba shortly, strictly for a
holiday, but are taking soap, childrens paper, crayons, pencils and
such as well as medications.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Bill,
I thought you now had a reformed Labour government that
eschewed this neo-liberal nonsense.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Date sent: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:10:37 +1300
From: Bill Rosenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:
Obviously Gar Lives in the USA.
If he lived in Canada (a cold climate), he would realize that this is
nonsense.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Date sent: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:23:29 -0800
From: Gar Lipow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply to:
Ken and Gar,
Yes, you can further insulate your houses. I have my roof double
insulated, double windows etc. etc. But this raises other
problems. Sick buildings. Super insulated houses are death to
asthmatics (like me) or anyone suffering from alergies. If it is super
insulated you can
Date sent: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:27:45 -0500
Yoshie,
I might be happy to consider it. But first a few changes to make
living in the US possible.
Introduction of Medicare,
Gun control legislation
End to the Death Penalty
Establishment of a decent public school system
An adequate
A number of things bother me about this whole debate. Does Jim
really believe that there is an infinite limit to how we oppress
labour and that, even if there were, that that would not promote a
realization crisis.?
And does Yoshie really believe that we can raise all the current
This, of course, implies that Blair is close to/is an imperial
potentate who, given his performance in the Balkans, deserves to
control the rate of extermination of humanity in the region. Since
Britain is am historic carnivore of human values, it is difficult to
argued who should be the
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Subject:(Fwd) Mike's Message - serious political humour
Priority: normal
November 11, 2000
To: Secretary General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan
From: Michael Moore, citizen
Dear Mr. Secretary General:
Help
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:49:23 -0600
Subject:(Fwd) Moore on Gore
Priority: normal
Michael Moore Writes to Al Gore
October 31, 2000
Dear Vice-President Gore:
Hi! How are you! It's been awhile since
It is interesting how narcissistic this list has become -- totally
focussed on the US and the selection of its imperial majesty.
Now I realize how important American domestic politics is for the
rest of the world -- since domestic politics in the US can result in
thousands of deaths of
Doug asks:
Canada has an election coming up, no? Maybe you could tell us
something about that.
Doug
Well, perhaps Ken and some of the others on the list should also
put their takes on it, but here is mine.
The governing Liberals (equivalent to your Democrats) are likely to
win a
Just watched the first 45 minutes of the 2 hour leaders debate in
the Canadian elections. 5 leaders (Liberal, Bloc, Conservative,
Alliance and NDP) Yea, all national (Bloc?) parties represented,
unlike the US. Kind of boring actually. Some impressions (Ken,
Sam, your reactions?)
1.
Whoops, I said Alexa McDonald rather than Alexa Macdonough --
despite me being a fellow Celt, though of the Welsh persuasion.
My apologies to the Scots/Irish on the list. (She comes from Nova
Scotia, which has not only produced the best fiddlers in Canada,
but some of the most radical
Some on the list may be interested in this network.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
From: "Romani Crisis Net"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:RCN - Program
Date sent: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:42:14 GMT
Dear Friends Phralalen,
Amen chi
Subject:[Fwd: Bush bumbling] (fwd)
A few quotes from the Republican nominee...
__
"Mars is essentially in the same orbit...Mars is somewhat the same
distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen
Jim asks:
thanks for this message. I have a question: wasn't one reason for the
movement away from workers' control (socialized property?) is that there
was excessive decentralization, which led to continuous contracting and
re-contracting even within factories?
Under the 1976 Law on
Date sent: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 08:38:27 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:3248] Re: Milosevic and privatization
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I have another question
Louis, I think both you and Chris are somewhat off base on this.
The Slovenes (I can't speak so confidently of the Croats but I was
teaching and living for extended periods at the time in Slovenia and
in constant touch directly or indirectly with Slovene government
officials) did not resent
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 12:57:09 -0700
Subject:When Might Makes Wrong - Chalmers Johnson in The San Francisco
Chronicle
From: "Sid Shniad" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
I was listening to "As it Happens", the CBC news backgrounder,
this evening on the events in Yugoslavia. Rather interesting.
Apparently Milosevic met with the Army Chiefs and Kostinica,
congratulated Kostinica on his electoral victory and announced he
was going to retire temporarily from
Dennis,
Yes, Slovenia has done quite nicely -- but then there has not been
a father figure for years. To the extent there was, he became the
president of the new Republic. To the best of my knowledge, there
has been no EU money for the environment. etc.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 10:24:46 -0700
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Why all is not well with globalization - The Vancouver Sun
The
Michael,
I am sure there are. But what is the relevance in this case?
Paul
Date sent: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:22:42 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:2747] Re: Yugoslavia
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:55:39 -0700
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Milosevic speech to the people of Yugoslavia
Yugo crisis: Milosevic
Chris,
I hear contradictory messages on this issue. We all hear about
the shortage of 'knowledge' workers in NA but, we also hear about
all the unemployed 'knowledge' workers who can't get jobs -- either
because they want 'permanent' jobs (rather than contingent jobs) or
because the high
From: "Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date sent: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:27:30 -0300
Subject:[PEN-L:2294] A correction (was Re: Re: Re: The US buys
democracy for Yugoslavia.)
Priority:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date sent: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:03:24 EDT
Subject:[PEN-L:2302] Re: Re: The US buys democracy for Yugoslavia.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In a message dated 9/25/00
Advertisement
The Department of Economics at the University of Manitoba invites
applications for a full-time tenure track appointment at the rank of
Assistant Professor in economic theory. The appointment will begin on
July 1, 2001, or soon thereafter, subject to
At 07:59 11/09/00 +0100, Chris Burford wrote:
This incident is mainly a warning to Britain about the limits of its
power. The raid was a sign of weakness:- it faced losing its troops still
kept as hostages, and public opinion growing doubtful again about this
whole expedition.
But is it not equally our business what the US does to bomb, kill
and maim civilians and children in Columbia, Yugoslavia, Iraq etc.
etc. not also our business, particularly when it is done by the very
people that Brad calls "us".
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
But the
Nestor,
Sorry I lost the electronic thread of this discussion.but the
Canadian Centre of Policy Alternatives in its September 2000 issue
has an article by Asad Ismi, "Mass murder used to open Argentina
to big Corporations" -- based on loans from the Rockefeller
foundations and from the CIA.
Nestor and Bill,
Let me reiterate my main point which I take you both would either
agree with or at least accept as a reasonable argument. The first
world war consolidated industrial capitalism in Canada and the
governing elite was firmly under control of industrial capital which
no longer
I have followed this thread with some interest in part because I
teach Canadian Economic History, in part because I have done
some comparative work comparing Australia and Canada
(shameless promotion, I published an artical in Australia's J of IR
some few years ago as a result of
Michael,
I realize that routine animation has been taken over by 3rd world
factories, but I know we had 3 well known animators in Winnipeg (I
think one was nominated for an academy award or at least the film
he worked on was). They (or one or two) were contracted by
Disney I believe to
--- Forwarded message follows ---
Date sent: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:41:35 -0700
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Biotech Has Bamboozled Us All - The Manchester Guardian (UK)
The
Louis,
This is an interesting comment and one that should be recognized
more by labour economists. A number of years ago (many
numbers) I was passing a campaign office of the NDP for an
election that had been called, unexpectedly, just days before. I
dropped in and to my surprise saw an
Pardon me if I don't seem to understand the problem.
When I first needed a macro intro text, I wrote notes for one that I
mimeographed (yeh, those were the days) and distributed to my
students. A commercial publisher picked it up and it (and a
companion micro text) which went through two
Lou, when was Greg last in Yugoslavia?
Paul
Date sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:12:33 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:807] From Greg Elich
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Carrol, the point I was trying to make (evidently not very
successfully) is that a depressing proportion of students are not
just looking for a "good job" but quite consciously seeking jobs
where they can expropriate surplus value -- they don't want just
good jobs, the want to be RICH and are
Louis and Barkley,
I think the figures quoted by Louis are reasonable reliable. The
statistics quoted in the Yugoslav Stats Yearbook have always been
pretty consistent in my experience. I should point out that Tomas
Popovic was a personal friend of mind. In my last visit to Beograd I
Max,
Before going off on a rant, let me explain those comments, asides
really, that you object to. To begin at the end, (' ideology of greed')
I was referring to contemporary students who are only interested in
those subjects which will bring the highest salaries and fastest
rising jobs,
Following the recent discussion of GM foods comes this note in
the recent issue of the CCPA monitor. (July-August 2000)
"GM crops are bad for the brain
Genetically modified crops, hailed as the answer to global
famine, are contriubting to widespread brain impairment in the
developing
Stephen,
when you copy such articles as attachments, they become
unreadable to many of us as the lines are too long for our readers.
Can you not reformulate the articles for email?
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Max et al.,
Since I am just in the process of updating and expanding my text on
political economy I am also in the process of refining and developing my
chapters on the labour market and wage determination. This is what
prompted my previous intervention because I really fear that the
I get the impression that this whole debate is being held in the
context of a *single* labour market (neoclassical style). Once one
gets into analysis based on segmented labour markets this
simplistic and superficial neoclassicism does not make much
sense. The labour market dynamics of
Garnet,
This is not exactly a response to your question, though I think it is
related. My experience comes from observation of Yugoslavia
among the 6 republics and 2 autonomous provinces in more
happier times. In fact, the reason I got interested in Yugoslavia in
the first place was
Actually, Jim, Manitoba Hydro has been making a substantial profit
over the last few decades, primarily from sales of power to the US
market. Manitoba's peak demand is for power in the wintertime
while the US demand is highest in summer. Since most of
Manitoba's power is hydro, most of the
Does anyone remember where and when the reference to the
"invisible foot" or "invisible elbow" (in reference to market failure due
to externalities) appeared?
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
What I think should be recognized is that almost all the debate, pro
and con re market socialism has been couched in neoclassical
terms. (Indeed, if you look at my review of Jossa and Cuomo in
ROPE, that is my first comment.) But the debate on MS is in NC
terms because the whole debate back
I mistakenly erased Louis response to my post and his summary
of Estrin's position in his 1991article. I essentially agree with a lot
of what Estrin says, in particular about the failure to develop an
effective capital market. But that was the point of my arguement
that the 1975 move to
Louis, By and large I agree with you except that I think, had it not
been for the ethnic nationalisms and an emasculated central
government, reforms and economic policies could have been put in
place to weather the external storm, just as (so far) Cuba has
done.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
Chris wrote that the Yugoslav experience contradicted all of
Vanek's conditions and gave four examples. Of the four, three are
debatable but this one is definitely untrue. One was free to set up
any firm one wanted to providing it employed 5 or fewer employees.
(In fact, a family could
Whew! Some people on this list must have a lot of free time or be
awfully fast typists given the amount of posting that has been going on
re this and related streams. Let me try to answer some of the queries and
respond to some of the issues raised.
The first is easy: Justin, you can order
Louis wrote:
The other thing left out of the equation is the degree to which
competitiveness inculcated a "dog eat dog" mentality that made it tempting
for the more well-off republics like Croatia to break away. If the logic is
self-improvement, why not take the law of profitability and
Michael,
This is the first I have ever heard of this suggestion. It sounds
highly improbable to me. According to all my Yugo sources, the
decision was taken in 1950 largely at the suggestion/urging of
Edvard Kardelj, who was a close associate of Tito's. It was a
response to the failure of
I have followed this somewhat unfocussed debate on planning vs
markets with some interest since I had the opportunity to co-write
the EPE entry on Market Socialism and author two other related
items in the encyclopaedia. What I would suggest is that there
needs to be some deeper
Ken,
We were in Cuba in January (in Satiago di Cuba) for a holiday at a
resort (an excellent one that we can recommend, a favourite of pro-
Cuban Canadians and very loud Italians) but although we visited
Satiago and other places around the area, and did our best to talk
to the locals and the
Carrol, haven't you heard of efficient market theory? There are no
inefficiencies in a capitalist market economy.
As far as I can tell, almost all (or all) critiques of the possibility of
planning assume that the planning must be *successful* in some large and
sweeping sense. But there is
Michael,
Can you translate this into English so we know what you are
asking?
Paul
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba.
Date sent: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:01:42 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry, this was a typo. The late Lynne Turgeon _had_ some
association
Doug, I believe Lynne Turgeon has some association with COMER
Paul
Paul Phillips
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Date sent:Tue, 4 Jul 2000 15:27:44 -0400
To: [EMAIL
This debate has been interesting but is getting somewhat repetitious
and, at points, a little silly.
There can be no logical doubt that a finite resource will ultimately run
out, the quicker the exponential increase in use occurs. (Doug seems to
be somewhat illogical on this issue.) I.e.
Date sent: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:11:18 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:21086] Re: Re: water water everywhere
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Canada, of course, is the
Ken,
When I was chair of the Manitoba Milk Control Board/ Milk Prices
Review Commission we found that medium size producers where
by far the most efficient producers -- i.e about 60 milking cows.
Large producers were not efficient and small producers were not
either although in this case,
Careful Michael,
Canada has a large STOCK of fresh water, but a limited FLOW of
'excess' fresh water. If I remember the figures correctly, only about
15 % of Canada's water could be exported without severely causing
a water crisis in Canada. This would hardly solve California's water
Why is population growth a non-issue? Exponential population
growth is no more sustainable than exponential energy
consumption if only because, in the long run, exponential
population growth means exponential energy consumption.
Paul Phillips,
Economics,
University of Manitoba
Jim,
Correct me if I am wrong, but is dollarization any different from in
the EMU with fixed exchange rates for the small countries?
Paul
Date sent: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:57:54 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ken,
I checked the web site for "Falling Behind" and it wasn't listed. A
pity since I had intended to order a copy.
Paul
Date sent: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:08:47 -0500
From: Ken Hanly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
You wrote:
Also, it's so grand in its ambition
that historically specific moments come off looking merely like
manifestations of general, immutable laws. So much for agency,
responsibility, and finally politics, or the notion that anything could
have been (could be) different.
It has
Mine wrote:
However,as you
know, there are some Marxists in the Marxist tradition who uncritically
subcribe to the notions of "orthodox" economics and free market
capitalism. This, I would charecterize as economic determinism, has
interesting commonalities with liberal economics since it
Michael wrote:
Usually today people use the term when they are writing are the margins of
neo-classical economics (that includes Buchanan).
I have always liked Branko Horvats definition of political economy
as "a fusion of economic and political theory into one single social
theory."
In
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
From: "Paul Phillips" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date sent: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:47:19 -0500
Subject:(Fwd)
Priority: normal
I thought all Pen-l-ers with an
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