i'm taking a break from the lists so i can do some work. outstanding abuse
can be fwd/d.
Angela
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ps. a gratuitous citation:
'Critical Notes on the Article "The King of Prussia and Social Reform. By a
Prussian" '
Marx, _Vorwarts!_ No.63, August 7 1844
"The state will
from below:"the continuing force of the nation-state ... seeking to promote
accumulation processes within the national economy at the same time ... to
constitute the integrity of the nation and define the form and character of
the national labour market."
liberals may whine about the nationalism
This thread ( or is that the other list?) has been on the lack of critical
thinking in Maoism, implying that western liberals are more critical
thinkers.
where/when was this implication made?
Angela
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jim wrote:
We should remember that arguing about the meanings of words is a good way
to waste time.
perhaps. but a discussion about the meaning of words (it doesn't have to be
a shitfight) is really a discussion over one's analysis.
Now the difference between ethnicity and nationality seems
ad as the rest of the world in asserting
the superiority of its people, but the appointed inferiors in Japan are,
as I understanding it Koreans and the untouchables. Neither make up a
large share of the population.
So Japan does not have to build large prison complexes to house young
Koreans or do
THE WAR IN YUGOSLAVIA. ON WHOM ARE THE BOMBS FALLING?
Massimo De Angelis and Silvia Federici
As we are writing--June 7, 1999--in Kumanovo, Macedonia, the diplomats are
negotiating the terms of the 'agreement" that is supposed to bring peace
back to Yugoslavia. For many people this may signify
Yoshie wrote:
What do you think of the following article--both its content and the very
fact that the New York Times printed it? Doesn't it say something about
both the nature of Albanian 'nationalism' a la KLA _and_ how NATO is
planning to treat Albanians (that is, not as "innocent victims" of
seth wrote:
Could some kind soul please send me off-list the report by the Germans that
found little to no evidence of Serbian ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.
the one from the German refugee appeal tribunal?
Angela
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yoshie wrote:
Nobody is stopping Harald (or you for that matter) from organizing anti-war
activists according to the principles that he thinks (or you think) are
correct. It's not as though he and Chossudovsky belonged to the same
political party and the party adopted Chossudovsky's view.
I
Carrol wrote, replying to my insistence that there is are important
distinctions between Marx and Lenin:
If all you want to do is to spin academic reveries I suppose this
opposition works.
on the issue of nationalism, there is an indeed an opposition between Marx
and Lenin. this is not an
Chaz wrote:
One must first determine whether it is nationalism of an oppressed or
oppressor nation.
perhaps one must first decide whether one is a marxist or a leninist?
Marx wrote about the conflicts between nations and states as a reflection and
response to class struggles within those
The Alternative Economic Summit
http://www.weedbonn.org/aktiong7/prog_e.htm
17./18. of June 1999
..VHS, Cologne
Programme and Outline
From 18th to 20th of June 1999 the last World Economic Summit (G-7) in this
century will take place in Cologne.
In Germany, social movements and NGOs are
from http://www.iww.org/ via [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bombing the Bridge to the 21st Century:
Clinton Gore's Appointee -- Lawrence Summers
-- To Manage Their New World Order
by Mitchel Cohen
President Clinton's annihilation of Yugoslavia's water and electric
systems, schools, hospitals and
anyone know anything about suriname? - Angela
---
Suriname Leader Faces Continuing Street Protests
12:15 a.m. May 28, 1999
PARAMARIBO, Suriname (Reuters) - Thousands of anti- government protesters
marched through the Surinamese capital Thursday as embattled President Jules
RALLY AGAINST THE WAR IN YUGOSLAVIA
PRESENTS MICHEL CHOSSUDOVSKY
below, a post from an anti-war activist. - Angela
__
-Original Message-
From: Harald Beyer-Arnesen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[...]
More recently, an article by Michel Chossudovsky, professor at
jim wrote:
it's true that these change. But my presumption is that racist and
sexist
practices change due to impacts from capitalism which (1) disrupt
the
power of the dominators and/or (2) strengthen the struggles of the
dominated.
Why? because racist and sexist practices aim to produce
hey gar,
I don't know if this is true. If class, race, and gender can all be
traced to some single root cause then we could use this root cause as
base and the others as superstructure. If not, then we need to start
with three categories, and three (probably interactive) explanation.
well,
hi gar,
Actually I would say that treating classism as just another factor to
be considered along with racism, sexism, disability rights etc. is
not
a bad idea. A more formal way to put it is that oppression occurs
along certain axis. Class is one. Kinship is another (including
gender,
Why do I get the depressing feeling that you haven't read a thing
I've
written on the net in the past four or five years. What I am getting
at is
the point that Lenin made in "What is to be Done" that socialist
parties
have to avoid the trap of economism, which was the "workerism" of his
day.
I can't claim to be an expert on postmodernism, but some of its
proponents
want to treat Marx's theory not as an abstraction to be made more
concrete
but as just another factor to be thrown in with all the other factors
(classism in with racism and sexism and homophobia and ...) as a sort
of
hi tom,
My view is that one has to go beyond the distinction between formal
and real
subsumption for the answer. I would argue that Marx already did go
one step
beyond that distinction in the published text of Capital, describing
a third
'moment' of subsumption, one that I would call social
louis wrote:
...Felix Guattari...was a psychoanalyst ...
Their first
collaboration was the 1972 "Anti-Oedipus". Massumi interprets this
work as
a polemic against "State-happy or pro-party versions of Marxism".
massumi does not reduce 'anti-oedipus' to a polemic against statist
marxism.
In addition, I have spent many hours--too many, in point of
fact--reading
Deleuze-Guattari...
so, what do you think of deleuze and guattari's book 'communists like
us'?
angela
tom, jim, hsin-hsing, others:
tom wrote:
Upon re-reading, I also see clearly the two forms (formal/real) can
coexist. However, I see nothing in this text on *reversion back* to
formal
subsumption (as may be the case with structural adjustment, etc.).
and this I think was my problem. a
louis wrote:
Marx would take one look at the
contents of a typical Social Text or Rethinking Marxism and throw
them out
the nearest window.
there is no basis for this at all. marx read a lot of stuff,
especially stuff he went on to critique.
and, as for hybrid? i'm not really interested
or is it simply a matter of ideology, i.e., what's in people's heads,
something that can be solved if we simply reveal that it's wrong and
if we
use correct forms of speech and discourage others from using
incorrect speech?
jim, many whom you might call pomos are idealists, but not all by any
on a less complex matter than why people do the things they do...
does anyone have any replies to tom's query on formal and real
subsumption? i'd be grateful if anyone had any ideas on this at all.
angela
Tom Kruse writes: I've just reviewed Marx on "formal" vs. "real"
subsumption of labor to capital, the former understood as
"...capital
[making] use of noncapitalist modes of production while leaving the
means
of production in the hands of the producers and leaving internal
processes
such as
hi jim,
sorry, i got people a bit confused by not quoting tom kruse's original
post when i asked this. i do know what real and formal subsumption
refers to, and i would even add to your preliminary but excellent
remarks below that these concepts bear a difficult relation to those
marx used in
carrol wrote:
For an extreme example of how this practice of attacking categories
unattached to proper names creates nonsense. On one of these lists
a week or so ago some idiot created two categories, one a category
of poor whites all of whom were assumed to be racist slobs, and a
category of
chaz wrote:
In this regard, socalled postmodernism is not much different than
theories about long waves in economics. How does the theory of long
waves, even of the "longue duree" , contribute to overthrowing
capitalism ? What is its PRACTICE ?
WHAT IS TO BE DONE ?
now chaz, i know you're
jim wrote:
That's why I used the phrase "some of the PoMos lean toward the
latter"
(the idealist interpretation). Since I have never read all of, or
even a
lion's share of, the PoMo literature (not to mention all of the
Post-Structuralist, Post-Marxist, Post-Colonial, or Post Toasties
INDONESIA
Mr. Moderate
Firebrand Amien Rais cools stance ahead of
June polls
[...]
and with indonesian workers out on the streets in surabaya, no doubt
rais is looking pretty good to many
angela
hi again bill,
you wrote:
Your account of racism seems to assume that its real base is among
working
people rather than the 'relatively powerful', and that it is rooted
in
individual psychology rather than capitalist social relations. If so,
I
don't see any way to overcome racism; perhaps I
Uh-oh, that's my subject line but Rev Tom's gratuitous sexism under
it.
Maggie 'n Angela gonna eat you alive, Reverend. Mebbe Milton
Friedman'll
sell you a seat on his getaway plane.
gratuitous it is, valis but i don't quite know why this is sexist.
wasn't this just another occassion of
Quoth Louis:You won't believe your eyes:
1. Go into MSWord
2. Type: I'd like all niggers to die
3. Highlight the sentence
4. Go into the Tools - Language - Thesaurus
I know you may not have MS Word but what happens is you get a
message
saying, "I'll drink to that."
hi bill,
It seems to me there are very shaky grounds for accepting that this
"structural logic" really exists. Of course there may be something to
it,
but I can't understand building a whole political approach around it,
which
seems to me is what has been done.
would i build a whole political
-Original Message-
From: Paul Kneisel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I consider myself a rather orthodox Freudian. And as the editor of
The
Internet Anti-Fascist I do not recognize either myself or my journal
in
Proyect's assertions.
you're right, it's difficult to feel interpellated in all this.
rob wrote:
(we need not follow
Foucault, who seemed to think history is nought but an accumulation
of
documents written by victors with the future in mind - history has
left
plenty that wasn't particularly meant to tell stories years or
centuries
later
well, i think foucault agrees. as would
Ken asked and answered:
And doesn't the press play up every case where there is a rip-off
of the welfare system?
The workers are a victim of selective reporting but the
psychology involved doesn't seem particularly complex...
valis replied:
And what about the racist component? Most of
louis,
is this your version of the 'talking cure'?
angela
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't know what the phallus is, but I know it's not supposed to be
reducible to the penis. So what is it? How do we deploy the
concept? Is
it important for lesbianism (or feminism-in-general?) to incorporate
into
its identity
-Original Message-
From: Ken Hanly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Whatever the crimes of Pol Pot ... his Khmer Rouge were a popular
and ultimately
successful
revolutionary movement.
interesting that the statement i prefaced by 'whatever the crimes',
which is subsequently absolved by the words
-Original Message-
From: Sam Pawlett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jakarta has been making noises recently about granting E.Timor
autonomy
or even independance and freeing Xanana Gusmao.
jakarta has offered a referendum on 'limited autonomy', and said that
if this is rejected, then they will
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am not a neo-Luddite, nor a "back to nature" ideologist. I am a
Marxist, as this reply to Jerry Mander, Vandana Shiva's colleague,
should
indicate:
great, then again we are in agreement. so why did you insist however
many
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
how about this for a deal: you address your comments to my claims,
like that marxism is neither a one-sided celebration of progress nor
a
demand for a retreat to the past, and then we can have a
conversation.
i know you don't
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Why don't we strike a
compromise. You lace your posts with some historical or economic
facts and
I'll try to throw in some empty rhetoric in mine. How's this:
The bifurcation of the subject in post-Fordist society reflects the
-Original Message-
From: Rosser Jr, John Barkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Louis,
Yeah, but does Betty Boop have a lesbian phallus?
charming.
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Angela:
my comments go to the
question of how exactly you would distinguish your version of 'back
to
the land' from these historical experiences of it. that is to say,
how exactly can you be sure that this is not simply a
check out the esteemed rand corp thinking on the zapatistas. [myself,
i'd save it to disk and run a virus check over it first - you never
know what nasty things you could pick up here
http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR994/MR994.pdf/
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is a gross distortion of what Marxism stands for. The Khmer
Rouge were not Marxists, they were a virulent strain of middle-class
radicalism that turned against its own social roots. They wanted to
"purge"
Cambodian society
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Back to the land? Absolutely.
...The name of this appropriate policy is
called socialist revolution. ...
or another version of 'go back to where you came from'?
I also wonder how those in Cambodia would view such a policy?
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
..I have no idea what you base these comments on. Is this something
you read
somewhere or is it based on first hand experience. You are posting
from
Australia, a modern industrial country with modern farming.
..
yes, louis.
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It shocks me that you lack
even the most elementary self-awareness of your own political views.
Doug
yeah, Doug, why won't you just play along? Louis understands you,
loves you like a brother...
angela
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All that nonsense about peasants wanting to flee "rural
idiocy" gets put in the garbage can where it belongs.
we are not in the 17th century, when it is still possible to be a
peasant outside capitalism. we are in the 20th C,
The Zapatista armed struggle going on right now is based in Mayan
culture, Marxism and another theory I forgot, according to the
representative I heard speak a few years ago.
here's a link:
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/faculty/Cleaver/zapsincyber.html
-Original Message-
From: Rob Schaap [EMAIL PROTECTED]
As one who got the hell out of town (albeit not very far - we gotta
work)
wow, rob. i never thought of canberra as a city. a mall strung around
a beautiful lake, but not a city.
angela
-Original Message-
From: Peter Dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, 3 February 1999 5:00
Subject: [PEN-L:2825] Re: postmodernism and neoclassical economics
I'll leave it to others to compare pomo with GET. I find it
interesting
that
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