I accept that I mischaracterized Henry's
position vis a vis Max. However, Henry certainly
characterized one position as being "evil" even
if he did not specifically list people who held it,
although Max came closer to it than anybody on
the list. Not too surprising that he took offense.
As for the names issue, I agree that no one
should alter somebody else's name for public usage
without their genuine consent. Certainly changing
someone's name because one does not know how
to pronounce it (if it is foreign or unfamiliar) is racist
or at least chauvinist. Also, applying a name that
implies some negative stereotype is clearly racist.
I am not sure that what Max did fit either of those;
maybe it did. I am not going to defend what he did, and
certainly the second round was highly inappropriate.
Barkley Rosser
-----Original Message-----
From: Henry C.K. Liu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 1:19 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:6402] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ciao, Baby
>I really do not wish to spend more energy on this, but Barkley's claim that
>I called Max evil is not support by fact.
>I wrote before Max's "joke":
>"I never once attacked Max personally for taking a position I disagree
with,
>much less accused him of being evil.
>Read my post. Max was not mentioned.
>I stand behind every word in my post."
>
>Cultural and language imperialism is a serious issue, but more for non
>Westerners. Recently, I participated in a diversity training seminar in a
>major New York law firm whose members pride themsleves as ultra liberals
who
>fight for social justice. The question was raised whether it is alright to
>modify non-Western names of associates as a convenience, such as calling
>someone with a difficult name Jack or Charlie. The head of the corporate
>department responded by saying it was ok if no harm was meant by it. The
>younger memebers thought it was an absoletely incorrect posture. To
>non-English speakers, Smith is a very difficult name to pronounce.
>Racism has to be opposed at its bud. It was not just Max's repeated
>taunting, but when I protested, others on the list suggested that I was
>hyper-sensitive. That was the last straw. There is no basis to participate
>in fighting for social justice while showing a total insentivity to its
>universal meaning.
>
>These are my last words on this subject. As I said, innocent people are
>still getting killed or made to starve to death.
>
>Henry
>
>"J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
>
>> I am one of the many on this list who has
>> yet to figure out what on earth was racist about
>> Max's original play on Henry's name. However,
>> once it was clear that Henry objected for whatever
>> reasons to having his name fooled around with,
>> it was inappropriate for Max to do it some more.
>> Max has withdrawn I believe partly out of
>> exhaustion. After all, with Nathan laying low, Max
>> has been the sole defender of the war in Yugoslavia
>> on this list, or at least the sole open such defender.
>> I think it got to him and I think he resented being
>> called "evil" by Henry. I have encouraged him off
>> list to return after a suitable cooling off period. I
>> don't know if he will or not.
>> I remain opposed to the bombing. But I would
>> remind people on this list that it is unwise to be too
>> self-righteous about all this. We may sneer at all the
>> self-styled progressives who are supporting the bombing.
>> But it is a serious position and they are not all doing it
>> to kiss somebody's derrriere or to win favors or positions
>> in the US Congress, or whatever. There are a lot of people
>> who see the trains and the refugees and think, "Holocaust."
>> That this is not an appropriate analogy is for us to convince
>> them of, not to presume that such an analogy is automatically
>> idiotic or immoral.
>> Barkley Rosser
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 11:40 PM
>> Subject: [PEN-L:6370] Re: Re: Re: Ciao, Baby
>>
>> Max made a joke about Henry's name which Henry interpreted as a
>> racist response and protested. In response, Max came back with
>> an even more obnoxious joke using Henry's name that I for one
>> found obnoxious and, in the context of making fun of ones name
>> after having been asked not to do so, I found intolerable on what is
>> supposed to be a 'socialist' list. Henry interpreted it as racist and
>> having made that point, when Max compounded the offense, I could
>> only conclude that Max was insensitive to the racial offense he was
>> giving. Thus, I hope that Max would withdraw until he calms down
>> and becomes a little more sensitive to others on the list. And I
>> don't mean on the Kosovo situation as I tried to indicate, perhaps
>> not very clearly. But since he is not on the list, I will not try to
>> debate his position now.
>>
>> Paul Phillips,
>> Economics,
>> University of Manitoba
>>
>> > I'm all for flogging Max for his horrible position on Kosovo, but what
>> > did he write that was of a "racist tone"?
>> >
>> >
>> > Bill
>> >
>
>
