>
>As the movement for reparations grows, I expect the definition of
>blackness to change.
It will have to. But to what?
Any ideas?
Best,
John R Henry CPP
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>
>my apologies: i did not mean to imply (as my message did since it
>was in response to yours) that you were making the argument based
>on the difficulty of implementation - someone else was and my
>reference was to that argument.
I think you may mean me, since I originally asked the question.
On Thursday, April 19, 2001 at 07:44:25 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes:
>Bill, I thought that Ian was just being humerous. Yes, the M' exceeds M,
>but these equations just give a capitalist vision of reality. Say that I
>buy a slave for $1 and make a good that I sell for $5. But if I had to go
Michael Perelman wrote:
>Doug, the answer to your question comes in two parts. First, I am not
>sure that the median inhabitant of the planet has much higher incomes
>and lives much longer. Surely not those in the bottom quintile.
It doesn't make much sense to discuss this question in abstracti
> I'm not sure what exactly the above says, but I may agree with it: the 2nd
> law of thermodynamics -- i.e., that in a closed system, disorder increases
> over time -- doesn't seem relevant to life on Earth, since it's not a
> closed system. Order can be created by use of energy coming from the
>
Jim wrote:
>I'm not sure what exactly the above says, but I may agree with it: the 2nd
>law of thermodynamics -- i.e., that in a closed system, disorder increases
>over time -- doesn't seem relevant to life on Earth, since it's not a
>closed system.
As far as I recall from my good old days o
Michael Perelman wrote:
>
> Ravi wrote:
> i think it is
> disingenuous to suggest that any remuneration be denied on the
> grounds that determining qualification is a difficult problem).
>
> No problem. I never argued against reparations, even though I fear that the
> debate about the subject
>CO2 cycles and atmospheric chemistry aside, the biosphere has rendered the
>2nd law
>moot for the time being. The question, as Gregory Bateson put it, is
>whether there is
>a biological analogue to the 2nd law, something that's different from--yet
>similar
>to-- organismic death
I'm not
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:31 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:10415] Re: The case for reparations
> Doug, the answer to your question comes in two parts. First, I am not
> sure that the median inhabitan
Max Sawicky wrote:
>
> [clip]
>
> The politics of reparations in the purely domestic
> context, white v. black, are no easier today than ever.
> But one can't help but notice that the call for
> reparations has more of a political impact than,
> say, a call for expanded social welfare programs
Ravi wrote:
i think it is
disingenuous to suggest that any remuneration be denied on the
grounds that determining qualification is a difficult problem).
No problem. I never argued against reparations, even though I fear that the
debate about the subject would turn on "how" rather than "why" re
> Bill, I thought that Ian was just being humerous. Yes, the M' exceeds M,
> but these equations just give a capitalist vision of reality. Say that I
> buy a slave for $1 and make a good that I sell for $5. But if I had to go
> back an repay the slave for the unpaid labor, I might have to pa
Um, if capitalism is a zero sum game, how come incomes are a million
times higher than they used to be, and how come people live longer,
can read, etc. etc.?Doug
Zero sum or not, the debt could still be inordinately
huge, essentially unpayable.
I've been drifting on this issue. Anyone wh
Um, if capitalism is a zero sum game, how come incomes are a million
times higher than they used to be, and how come people live longer,
can read, etc. etc.?
Doug
Michael Perelman writes: >> I suspect that captalism is a zero sum game. If the
capitalists had to make restitution to everybody from whom they profited -- Black
slaves,
native Americans, victims of imperialism, etc., they would have a bill many times
greater
than their wealth.<<
Saith Ian: >
Bill, I thought that Ian was just being humerous. Yes, the M' exceeds M,
but these equations just give a capitalist vision of reality. Say that I
buy a slave for $1 and make a good that I sell for $5. But if I had to go
back an repay the slave for the unpaid labor, I might have to pay $10.
On
On Wednesday, April 18, 2001 at 21:45:12 (-0700) Michael Perelman writes:
>I suspect that captalism is a zero sum game. ...
Hmm, I don't agree. As Ian points out, M-C-M' is still the name of
the game. It's who grabs the lion's share of M' that is the problem.
I might say that it closely resem
> I suspect that captalism is a zero sum game. If the capitalists had to
> make restitution to everybody from whom they profited -- Black slaves,
> native Americans, victims of imperialism, etc., they would have a bill
> many times greater than their wealth.
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economic
- Original Message -
From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:10382] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
Well the communist manifesto does not show Marx as absorbed in the present.
A
en's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with
industrial production, etc.
- Original Message -
From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:10384] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> Come on, Louis. You can do better than this. Everyone must recognize
> that the administration of reparations will raise difficulties. I suspect
> that the best solution would be to give money to the community rather than
> to individuals, but even then I am not sure how it would be admini
>Come on, Louis. You can do better than this. Everyone must recognize
>that the administration of reparations will raise difficulties. I suspect
>that the best solution would be to give money to the community rather than
>to individuals, but even then I am not sure how it would be administered.
>Are questions wrong because they are difficult to answer? Your reply reminds
>me of my late lamented Uncle Ralph who used to avoid difficult questions by
>a sort of ad questionem fallacy, attacking the character of the question,
>rather than answering it.
>Cheers, Ken Hanly
Sorry, Ken. I am
Come on, Louis. You can do better than this. Everyone must recognize
that the administration of reparations will raise difficulties. I suspect
that the best solution would be to give money to the community rather than
to individuals, but even then I am not sure how it would be administered.
Bu
Message -
From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 5:17 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:10364] Re: Re: Re: Re: The case for reparations
> >Also, what about the black population in the maritimes and in
> >southern Ontario who esc
Frankly, it was a mistake to even bring up the subject of reparations on
PEN-L. I did it because the post came from the BRC list, which is meant to
circulate widely. I forgot how rightwing and white PEN-L is. It takes
something like this to remind me. I won't make the mistake of crossposting
anyth
What was racist about the Horowitz ad was not his position on reparations
(about which reasonable people can disagree etc.), but his specific language.
For instance, the line about "welfare" being reparations already paid to
African Americans is reprehensible.
Peter
John Henry wrote:
> Thanks f
Lou, this is not the sort of exchanges we want here.
On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 07:51:30PM -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
> >Some of the reparation money would go to buy assets or improve the
> >financial position of African Americans. A lot of it, however, would be
> >wasted by many recipients. Whenev
No. Read what I wrote.
On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:51:30 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
>>Some of the reparation money would go to buy assets or improve the
>>financial position of African Americans. A lot of it, however, would be
>>wasted by many recipients. Whenever people of limited means get a
>>w
>Some of the reparation money would go to buy assets or improve the
>financial position of African Americans. A lot of it, however, would be
>wasted by many recipients. Whenever people of limited means get a
>windfall, they tend to waste a good chunk of it. If I won the lottery,
>I know I'd buy a
>
>Tribal councils are the creation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and
>blatantly anti-democratic.
>
>Louis Proyect
>Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/
That may be true (though it is a pretty sweeping statement given the large
number of tribes) but it is beside the point. If you a
>Indians are in a different situation. If you are certified as Iroquois by
>the Iroquois tribal council you are Iroquois. If you are not certified, you
>are not Iroquois. Different tribes have different requirements for
>certification but the key is that if you are a member of a tribe, you are
>Also, what about the black population in the maritimes and in
>southern Ontario who escaped via the underground railway?
>
>I am not trying to be argumentative here Louis but to ask a serious
>question about redistributive justice.
>
>Paul Phillips,
These are the wrong questions. They remind m
Louis wrote:
It is not only about
> African-Americans, it is about American Indians as well. For that matter
> the same kind of legalistic flim-flammery would apply to Indians as well.
> How can we give land to the Iroquois unless we can prove that they are 100
> percent Iroquois? As a rule of th
>
>This is not a legal question, but a political question.
It is a political question too but in terms of who gets the actual checks,
it is primarily a legal question. Someone is going to have to determine who
qualifies for the checks.
How can we give land to the Iroquois unless we can prove
John Henry:
>Am I black? If you knew me (I am blonde haired and blue eyed fair skinned
>Scotch-Irish-German descent) you would answer definitely not. I have never
>claimed to be. However, under federal law and as clarified via some
>personal correspondence with the chief counsel of the EEOC in
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