Chas sez:
I see that Nathan has left the list. But I must say that his allegation
that pen-L has a "complete refusal to
respectfully engage with those you disagree with" is not true. There have
been plenty of arguments on
this list in which the disputants were respectful of each other,
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date sent: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:34:30 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Sid Shniad [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:REPORTER REPRIMANDED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH
THE VANCOUVER SUN
Max Sawicky wrote:
In my romantic senility I'm maturing to the left.
We welcome you Max. Now if you could only shake your
infatuation with ordnance.
Doug
Maybe I should look forward to welcoming you.
mbs
"Ballots or bullets."
-- Malcolm X
Malcolm X didn't invite the US
Max:
I haven't seen anyone put forth the "social fascism" thesis
(i.e., the view that the folks immediately to the right of us on
the political spectrum are as bad as or worse than the fascists
or Nazis),
See most any post (other than reprints from the media) from
Louis, Carroll,
According to Tom Lehman's missive, the Democrats are likely to come to
regret the DSA's active advocacy for the bombings and ground troops:
The Democrats are screwed because of what Clinton, Albright, et al. have
done and not done. What the DSA says could not matter less.
mbs
Max Sawicky wrote:
You just go girl. You're my poster girl for
Bad Politics. The Dems lost Newt, but I have you.
Who's your poster girl (or boy) for good politics, Max?
Doug
Max Sawicky wrote:
Regarding the predictions of future apostasy by all non-believers, well I
had a vision after a particularly strong dose of green mustard on my sushi,
and *I* saw the future. Louis is the best-selling author of "Kosher Latino
Loving"; Henwood's newsletter has switched its
Mathew,
Will it be possible for you to send me the papers at the below
given address? Thanks! Cheers, ajit sinha
Dr. Ajit Sinha
Visiting Fellow
Centre for Development Economics
Delhi School of Economics
University of Delhi, Delhi 110007
India
THE NATURE OF MONEY: HISTORY, THEORY, AND POLICY
Check State of Working America. The authors seem to talk about
the invalidity of the 'skill' story every week or so.
mbs
I read an interesting article by Lester Thurow in a
recent Journal of
Post Keynesian Economics. He gives some interesting
data without
sources and without years. Can
On Wednesday, April 21, 1999 at 00:45:05 (-0700) Max Sawicky writes:
...
The simple rejoinder is: why the U.S. entered WWII is not as important as
the fact that entry contributed to preventing a greater Holocaust
victimizing even more Jews, Slavs, gypsies, etc. The concept of somebody or
Max:
The simple rejoinder is: why the U.S. entered WWII is not as
important as the fact that entry contributed to preventing a
greater Holocaust
victimizing even more Jews, Slavs, gypsies, etc.
I suppose Max has not read "Why Six Million Died". It lays out
the deep
antisemitism in the
Just War: theory and practice
I. Theory
"The noble race of the Franks must aid their co-religionists in the East.
The infidel Turks are advancing into the heart of eastern Christendom.
"Christians are being oppressed and attacked; the holy places are being
defiled; and Jerusalem itself is
Golfing triumphs fill your fantasies, Max? I'm worried about
you. Too long
in DC? Too many years looking at budgets? Slip into a nurse's
uniform or
something!
Did that work for you?
Actually in my younger days I was an escort in a hospital for the
chronically ill. My job was to transport
IN THIS MESSAGE: AFL Statement on Kosovo; LCLAA Statement on Kosovo;
Military Bombing Practice Kills Civilian in Puerto Rico
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
AFL-CIO CONDEMNS "ETHNIC CLEANSING" IN KOSOV
PROTESTS MURDERS OF LABOR LEADERS BY SERBS
I whole heartedly endorse Barkley's message below.
Cheers, ajit sinha
I don't have Nathan's email address, but I
would urge Michael P. to express to Nathan that
at least some of us regret his departure, despite
our disagreements. Heck, if all the pro-bombing
people leave the list, I'll
"We do know that we must do more to reach out to our children and teach
them to express their anger and to resolve their conflicts with words, not
weapons,"
-Bill Clinton, April, 20, 1999
If the Nation or any other liberal-labor-left publication really wanted to
increase their circulation they would have sent somebody like Doug Henwood,
Mike Davis or Michael Moore to Yugoslavia by now.
It would be interesting to see what a John Reed, a Jack London or an H.L.
Menken would make
Okay Lear. Today is your lucky day.
I don't know enough about Afghanistan to speak on it, though that
wouldn't stop me if it was as prominent an issue as Kosova.
The apparent binary choice you offer between a) Soviet control of
E. Europe, and b) democracy with ethnic carnage is one I will
Yoshie,
Hey!Even though I disagree with some
of what you post, I think that you are one very
smart and well-informed person. Don't go
away now, y'hear?
Barkley Rosser
-Original Message-
From: Yoshie Furuhashi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Yoshie,
One factor in the shift of Russian position has been
the realization that Muslims constitute a non-trivial
minority of the Russian population. Now, Max was
overdoing it with his characterization of the war as
religious conflict (there are Muslim Serbs in Kosmet
also, the Goranci),
The Independent (London)
September 4, 1995, Monday
Croats burn and kill with a vengeance; Robert Fisk in Kistanje finds
'ethnic cleansing' of the Krajina Serbs in full swing, with bodies piling
up and buildings gutted
Robert Fisk in Kistanje
Every house in Kistanje has been destroyed by
I wrote: The issue might be restated as "why did the US wait so long to
intervene in WW2?"
Rob writes: If memory serves, some Japanese planes had to pay a visit to
one of your imperial holdings before you got really cross with them. Even
then, the big R. didn't open hostilities against the the
The WeatherMax wrote:
In regard to the merits of bombing the U.S.A. for assorted
offenses, I'd agree (as I've said before) that in
certain cases
(e.g., Kissinger/Nixon's Christmas bombing of
Vietnam) it would
have been defensible, if there had been anybody big
enough to do it.
Nothing
Jim,
She has the novel seen through the eyes of five
women. They are the wife and four daughters of a
fanatic US Southern Baptist minister who goes to
the jungle of the Congo in 1960 as a missionary. He
is a hopeless parody of the worst sort of cultural imperialist,
telling his
Max:
The real throwback here is not Tomasky/Shachtman, but Louis et al. to the
Trots who opposed U.S. entry into WWII, or to the CP-USA when it condemned
all trade unions but the ones it organized itself.
I probably should have let this ignorant garbage go unanswered, but just to
clarify the
Max:
The real throwback here is not Tomasky/Shachtman, but Louis et
al. to the
Trots who opposed U.S. entry into WWII, or to the CP-USA when it
condemned
all trade unions but the ones it organized itself.
I probably should have let this ignorant garbage go unanswered,
but just to clarify the
I think that we ought to highlight Michel Chossudovsky's
analysis, which squarely puts Yugoslavia among other nations that have
suffered or disintegrated under the weight of external debt payments and
which treats nationalisms not as the cause of the Balkan wars but as
_effects_ of the
Max:
As often we have taken a detour, this time into the Smith Act.
Bottom line is, did the SWP encourage workers to serve in the
armed forces to fight the Axis, or not? If not, as I've said
before, that was a honorable position but debatable, especially
with the benefit of hindsight.
Of course
Tom Walker wrote:
Any analysis of NATO policy in Yugoslavia that cannot also explain the
trenchcoat mafia is a lame apologetics. It doesn't require conspiracy theory
or a paranoid fantasy of causality to realize that there is a political
economy that binds the two event horizons.
Since the
Doug Henwood wrote,
Since the Trenchcoat Mafia acted on Hitler's birthday, and since they
reportedly subscribed to some sort of Naziism, perhaps NATO should bomb
Littleton before it's too late.
Just to be safe, better throw in Denver and Colorado Springs.
regards,
Tom Walker
Max Sawicky wrote:
It's what comes of responding to others in their own terms. Sort
of like serial killers, I'm becoming a product of my environment.
But you need us, remember? If you couldn't position yourself as "sane" and
"reasonable" against a bunch of insane, unreasonable leftists, you'd
The Boston Globe
April 21, 1999, Wednesday, City Edition
Number of missing Kosovars is challenged
BYLINE: By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff and Louise D. Palmer, Globe
Correspondent
WASHINGTON - Experts in surveillance photography, wartime propaganda, and
Balkan diplomacy say there is every
Since the Trenchcoat Mafia acted on Hitler's birthday, and since they
reportedly subscribed to some sort of Naziism, perhaps NATO should bomb
Littleton before it's too late.
I caught a glimpse of the Littleton thing on tv here last night, and hit
the limits of my ability to mobilize irony.
Dear
Thomas Kruse wrote:
I tremble; people here I mention it to shrug, as if to say "what can you
expect from gringos"?
As in, "what can you expect of a country that can kill a million in Iraq or
three million in Indochina and not think twice about it?"
Doug
Did they not also break the boycott of the military gov't of Haiti?
Eugene Coyle wrote:
Today's NY Times reports re NATO that
"As a sign that the allies are serious about blocking any futher
oil, Texaco announced today that it would no longer ship gasoline to
Montenegro.
Texaco
And for a break from all the Kosovo and gun debates,
I am pleased to announce that my website now has many
of my papers up and available for the perusal of the universe.
Comments are most welcome. The site is at
http://cob.jmu.edu/rosserjb.
Barkley Rosser
Professor of Economics
James
Tom K. writes:I tremble; people here I mention it to shrug, as if to say
"what can you
expect from gringos"?
Doug H. writes: As in, "what can you expect of a country that can kill a
million in Iraq or
three million in Indochina and not think twice about it?"
It sure fits with Alex Cockburn's
On May 2 at 3 p.m. there will be a teach-in/conversation about the war
in Yugoslavia at the Central United Methodist Church, 3700 Pacific
Avenue, Stockton. The featured speaker is Gloria La Riva, West Coast
Coordinator of the International Action Center, and just back from a
fact-finding
"As can now be seen, the accord contains provisions that would have
subjected the whole of Yugoslavia to NATO occupation. The official
presentation repeatedly stated that it was a matter of autonomy for Kosovo,
which would be secured by the stationing of a 'peace force' in Kosovo.
However,
Queries Michael P:
Each senseless act of front page violence is followed up by repressive
legislation. What do you think will be the followup of the shootings in
Colo.?
The official reactions to this event will mesh with current events as
none before. The boys' Naziphilia has already been
Unfortunately, the US is behind the football times:)
Anthony P. D'Costa
Associate Professor
Comparative International Development
University of Washington
1900 Commerce Street
Tacoma, WA 98402, USA
Phone: (253) 692-4462
Fax : (253) 692-5612
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Rob Schaap wrote:
Is there no
I haven't read the Rambouillet agreement, but in light of discussion of it
some might like to get the view of Kosovans on negotiations last fall, a
sample of which is below. I can't speak for the veracity of all the
statements in this piece, but a consideration of the KTF's point of view is
"As can now be seen, the accord contains provisions that would have
subjected the whole of Yugoslavia to NATO occupation. The official
presentation repeatedly stated that it was a matter of
autonomy for Kosovo,
which would be secured by the stationing of a 'peace force' in Kosovo.
Wherein the further left swallows its own tail . . .
Socialist Workers Party (US)
denounces Pinochet arrest
By David Walsh
5 November 1998
The lead editorial in the November 2 edition of the
Militant, the weekly
Michael Perelman wrote:
Each senseless act of front page violence is followed up by repressive
legislation. What do you think will be the followup of the shootings in
Colo.?
Reminds me a lot of the Stockton schoolyard massacre a few years back when
Clayton Purdy a homeless drifter with
Wherein the further left swallows its own tail . . .
Socialist Workers Party (US)
denounces Pinochet arrest
By David Walsh
5 November 1998
The lead editorial in the November 2 edition of the
Militant, the weekly
On Wednesday, April 21, 1999 at 21:39:00 (-0700) Max Sawicky writes:
Here's one article from the Independent (UK) -- the same outlet that employs
Robert Fiske, I believe -- that has not been cross-posted. It describes in
detail the Serbian regime's style of genocide, a reasonable term in light
Here's one article from the Independent (UK) -- the same outlet that employs
Robert Fiske, I believe -- that has not been cross-posted. It describes in
detail the Serbian regime's style of genocide, a reasonable term in light of
the article.
http://www.independent.co.uk/stories/B2004906.html
Yeah, but keep away from Rocky Flats.
Gene Coyle
Tom Walker wrote:
Doug Henwood wrote,
Since the Trenchcoat Mafia acted on Hitler's birthday, and since they
reportedly subscribed to some sort of Naziism, perhaps NATO should bomb
Littleton before it's too late.
Just to be safe, better
Each senseless act of front page violence is followed up by repressive
legislation. What do you think will be the followup of the shootings in
Colo.?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901
Thomas Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/21/99 05:12PM
Since the Trenchcoat Mafia acted on Hitler's birthday, and since they
reportedly subscribed to some sort of Naziism, perhaps NATO should bomb
Littleton before it's too late.
I caught a glimpse of the Littleton thing on tv here last night, and
Max writes: The idea of workers' militias as a substitute for the Allied
Expeditionary Forces is an agreeable fantasy, nothing more.
That seems likely, since the AEF had more fire-power.
But to stop there is to fall for the "might makes right" version of
politics, which in this case would mean
I'm becoming a product of my environment.
But you need us, remember? If you couldn't position yourself as
"sane" and
"reasonable" against a bunch of insane, unreasonable leftists,
you'd have
to define yourself against all those tedious centrists
reactionaries in
DC, and you don't want to
On Wednesday, April 21, 1999 at 15:54:29 (-0400) Doug Henwood writes:
Tom Walker wrote:
Any analysis of NATO policy in Yugoslavia that cannot also explain the
trenchcoat mafia is a lame apologetics. It doesn't require conspiracy theory
or a paranoid fantasy of causality to realize that there is
Max:
As often we have taken a detour, this time into the Smith Act.
Bottom line is, did the SWP encourage workers to serve in the
armed forces to fight the Axis, or not? If not, as I've said
before, that was a honorable position but debatable, especially
with the benefit of hindsight.
Of course
I believe that I mentioned this in an earlier post,
but a key actor in the events reported below by Louis
Proyect was the US Ambassador to Croatia, Peter
Galbraith, brother of Jamie and son of John Kenneth.
By most accounts he gave the secret "green light" to
the Tudjman regime and oversaw
At 01:57 PM 4/21/99 -0400, Barkley wrote:
With respect to Lumumba, I would like to
recommend to one and all the novel, _The
Poisonwood Bible_, by Barbara Kingsolver. It
deals with the events in Congo/Zaire at the time
of independence and especially the role of the CIA
in the death of
With respect to Lumumba, I would like to
recommend to one and all the novel, _The
Poisonwood Bible_, by Barbara Kingsolver. It
deals with the events in Congo/Zaire at the time
of independence and especially the role of the CIA
in the death of Lumumba. It is one of those novels
that comes
Max Sawicky wrote,
Now now. How can I be a totalitarian? I can't even compel my
colleagues at EPI to buy my line on Social Security.
Max,
Get a grip. No matter how much you may personally identify with the
oppressor, you're not the political system.
regards,
Tom Walker
Max Sawicky wrote,
Declaiming against capitalism per se, even with an endless
amount
of lurid detail, is an utter waste of time as far as politics is
concerned.
And what of the legitimacy of a totalitarian "politics" that
makes fundamental questioning of the political economy a "waste
of
"We do know that we must do more to reach out to our children and teach
them to express their anger and to resolve their conflicts with words, not
weapons,"
-Bill Clinton, April, 20, 1999
Wasn't he the guy that compared himself to Arthur Koestler's hero Rubashov?
Gee, it's dark and it ain't
Max Sawicky wrote,
Declaiming against capitalism per se, even with an endless amount
of lurid detail, is an utter waste of time as far as politics is
concerned.
And what of the legitimacy of a totalitarian "politics" that makes
fundamental questioning of the political economy a "waste of
At 08:09 PM 4/20/99 -0500, Yoshie wrote:
P.S. I wonder how long we can continue to post this sort of info, in that
NATO regards Yugo media (especially TV but not limited to them) as
legitimate bombing targets and that the US military is developing what to
Yoshie, I also periodically check the
Max:
The simple rejoinder is: why the U.S. entered WWII is not as important as
the fact that entry contributed to preventing a greater Holocaust
victimizing even more Jews, Slavs, gypsies, etc.
I suppose Max has not read "Why Six Million Died". It lays out the deep
antisemitism in the Roosevelt
Louis Proyect wrote,
people often call an "inside-the-beltway" mentality.) It is the same
laughable inability to connect the dots that most of us saw on television
last night, when commentators were groping for an explanation why the
"trenchcoat mafia" students in Colorado killed 25 of their
X-From_: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 21 00:46:08 1999
X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:15:40 -0700
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Kim Scipes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Copy of Rambouillet "Accord"--important
April 20, 1999
Folks--
One of the key "justifications" for
Max,
The simple rejoinder is: why the U.S. entered WWII is not as important as
the fact that entry contributed to preventing a greater Holocaust
victimizing even more Jews, Slavs, gypsies, etc.
Clear something up for me, Max. The story I've heard many times is that the
allies knew about and
At 05:42 PM 4/20/99 -0400, Louis wrote:Congratulations, Michael
[Tomasky], you've become the Max Shachtman of the 1990s!
For those who don't know, Max Shachtman was a follower and friend of Leon
Trotsky's who broke with the latter when the USSR invaded Finland in 1940
and Trotsky defended
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