The following are very, very brief comments or rejoinders,
listed by # and author;
362 Jim D. See my earlier comment that the slave labor
basically anteceded industrial wage labor (England) --
apples and oranges. Also: I think force plays a BIG role in
the way capitalism tries to keep down the
Michael Perelman wrote:
I think there might be some confusion, as I mentioned before. Wood locates the
origin of capitalist social relations in agriculture. The discussion here
concerned that question of how the accumulation occurred once the social
relations were in place.
__
As one willing to have his mind changed by superior argument, regardless of
its geographical source, what would be the principled Marxist response to
the problems of East Timor? I am sufficiently familiar with the awful
history, and recognise the culpability, complicity, duplicity, involvement,
Michael Keany:
As one willing to have his mind changed by superior argument, regardless of
its geographical source, what would be the principled Marxist response to
the problems of East Timor? I am sufficiently familiar with the awful
history, and recognise the culpability, complicity, duplicity,
Elementary. The progressive role for East Timorese
is to serve as martyrs to Euro-centric "marxist" (sic)
ideology. God forbid that some of them were actually
rescued by the UN, or even worse, by an imperialist nation.
It would lend undeserved credit to liberal capitalism
and/or social
Michael Keaney wrote:
it is up to people like us to
ensure that those countries sponsoring the intervention are pressured into a
following a genuinely humanitarian course
NO! NO! NO! Back in the 1950s there was a fad of "The height of"
jokes. The height of arrogance was a flea approaching
Carrol Cox wrote:
There is a quite false assumption here that there is always something to
be done. This case, unfortunately, is one in which the first response has
to be: There is nothing to be done.
Please note that the assumption that "something" has to be be done is
strictly a result of the
On 21 Sep 99, at 12:35, Doug Henwood wrote:
... The 1989-92 period was unusual for the
length of its stagnation, but GDP was 3% higher in 1992 than in 1989,
which hardly makes it the worst recession since the 1930s.
Comrade Doug, isn't it time to go beyond marginal changes in GDP
and
Wood's newest book does insist that capitalism begins in agriculture, but she's
answering a different question then we are discussing. Her point is that
capitalist social relations begin in agriculture, not that agricultural
accumulation was predominant.
I would add that the whole issue of
Jim Devine:
But I'd like to know why you think that the Solidarity group violated
Marxist principles in their position on E. Timor. I believe that they back
the principle of the right of self-determination of nations, including the
independence of E. Timor. They just have a different
Ricardo D writes: Speaking about rhetoric, isn't it interesting that this
is the second (or third?) time you use the word "we"? Actually this clearly
reveals the whole emotional texture of this debate: "I", the other, better
watch out with what I say in this list; "I", the other, and only "I",
More responses from Jim B:
#387 Charles (and Barkley): The idea that the Europeans
pre1500 were uniquely "aggressive and rapacious" is,
unfortunately, a very dangerous notion. It concedes
the main argument of reactionaries and of course the
racists: namely, that Europeans had
Jim,
By "Northeast Asians" I meant the Koreans and
Japanese in particular, although the Chinese were
candidates as well, despite the term not fitting them.
As you noted, it is likely that Japanese boats did reach
at least the Aleutian Islands, but seem to have lacked
interest in doing much
Charles: Do you grant that Marx himself, in the Section in _Capital_ on the
primitive accumulation, very much thought that the colonial labor and trade
were important in the origin and primitive accumulation of capitalism ?
Charles, I think you would agree that this is one aspect of Marx's
Louis Proyect wrote:
Jim Devine:
But I'd like to know why you think that the Solidarity group violated
Marxist principles in their position on E. Timor. I believe that they back
the principle of the right of self-determination of nations, including the
independence of E. Timor. They just
At 02:55 PM 9/22/99 -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
The question that needs addressing is not how and why feudalism in Europe
evolved into capitalism, but how the particular "world system" got created.
I do not believe that there is a 'world system' other than the one in the
minds of wallerstein
Wojtek:
As to the rest, I agree. However, the lack of success in the countries
that switched to capitalism relatively late (e.g. 20th century), that might
be simply a result of timing rather than their "intrinsic" characteristics.
That is, they would have been more successful if they did not
Wojtek writes: " - that slavery and colonial exploitation was a key
element in capitalist development? - that seems a moot
point for several reasons. First we need to define what
kind of "condition" we are talking about - is it a
necessary condition?, a sufficient condition?, a
contributing
Bill:
THANK GOD (AND KARL AND FRED) ANOTHER GEOGRAPHER ON THIS LIST!!!
Cheerfully
Jim B.(mere earth-hugging geographer)
I'm losing track here, who are the Eurocentrics, sardonics,?
Steve
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, James M. Blaut wrote:
Jim D:
You're right. I just got a bit testy with Wojtek. Not all Eurocentrism in
Weberian, and Weber himself gets the blame for a lot of earlier bad ideas.
Weber is in the
Basing himself on an article by Bairoch, Ricardo Duchesne wrote that in
terms of population and economic activity, Britain's colonial possessions
were simply "too limited to have played any significant economic role".
Actually, Bairoch's thesis has been shot full of holes by more recent
Michael was asking for new threads as alternatives to the You're
Eurocentric, no I'm not, i'm Sardonic thread...
Where should leftists stand on the push by activists in Seattle demanding
that the WTO have stronger labor rights enforcement provisions? Are these
demands the product of imperialist
I think that the debate about the origin of capitalism has run its
course. I'm starting to see too much repetition and nastyness to make
me believe that we will have much to gain from continuing this.
When Fred Moseley returns from Mexico he will begin a thread concerning
the stability of the
Jim D:
You're right. I just got a bit testy with Wojtek. Not all Eurocentrism in
Weberian, and Weber himself gets the blame for a lot of earlier bad ideas.
Weber is in the foreground here because Ricardo keeps waving him in our
faces.
And my one-liner about internal forces was not sufficiently
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 22, 1999
Canada's average unemployment rate in 1998 could have been as high as 11.5
percent, 3.2 percentage points higher than the official rate, if a broader
range of unemployed individuals were included, Statistics Canada said in
announcing the
James M. Blaut wrote:
Slavery and colonial exploitation explain the early rise of
europe.
What explains the urge to enslave and colonize?
Doug
Wojtek:
Yes, you do, as you say, need to do some more research if you're going to
argue the way you do. Every single point you make has been disputed in the
literature and much of it has been flatly refuted, but you aren't aware of
that fact. So I cannot just take up your conventional (but
Ricardo,
Gee, I'm not sure I want to get on your long
list of alleged dingbats, but here goes
I have not read this guy Parker, and maybe
he is just the cat's meow as far as the history of
military technology, goes. But, his discussion of
Turkish military technology seems to be a
Answering Wojtek (450)
"I am not quite sure what are you trying to demonstrate in
this and related threads:- that slavery and colonial
exploitation created economic benefits for slave owners and
pludereres? - that seems an obvious and uninteresting
conclusion."
Thats not what I'm talking
(I declared in a post off list that I would say no more on the origins and
growth question, but Wojtek has raised a quite different question that
is worthy of separate consideration.)
Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:
OTOH, we need to explain the differences between latecomers, such as "Asian
tigers"
One source that claims priority for the Koreans
in inventing movable type for printing presses is
Andrew C. Nahm, _Korea, Tradition and Transformation:
A History of the Korean People_, 1988, Elizabeth:
Hollym International. I believe that in the early 1400s
they may have had the global
I'd like to say that while I can't follow every twist and turn in the
argument about Europe and the periphery, I am appreciating this thread
(when it stays on track).
But a question. For a different topic I am citing estimates of long-run
industrial output by Bairoch, as well as those by Angus
Rod, stick to your position, don't let Blaut's "expertise" on this
matter discourage you. Read the essay, "Europe and the wider world,
1500-1750: the military balance" by the foremost real expert on
military technology, Geoffrey Parker, an essay which is collected in
one of the books Blaut
Ricardo D. writes: The last thing we need, in this information saturated
society - is a shopping list of possible causes - a la Devine - without any
sense of consistency or explanatory purpose.
aha! This gratuitous swipe is more specific!
Frankly, I see nothing wrong with lists of causes
Here's a quick summary of Bairoch's essay: "Was Colonialism
Important in Triggering the Industrial Revolution?". Taking Britain, the
first country to industrialize, as the key example, he observes:
- Just in the period when industrial development accelerated,
1720-1760, Britain's colonial
Rod:
A few errors of fact (we all make those):
"'[Barkley] The technology diffused westwards.' And quickly! I see the
Poms were loosing 'bombards' (cannon) at the French by the time of Crecy
(ie by 1346)."
Chinese were developing weapons that eventually became cannons long before
the
Carrol:
This statement of yours is bothersome but mainly it is a betrayal of the
faCT that you are pronouncing on things that you don't have sufficient
knowledge of:
"I think that the educated guesses made by you, Lou, Jim B, etc. are
pretty good guesses. But that is all they are, and I want
Wojtek:
Methinks, however, that your rebuttal in essence re-confirms rather than
rebuts the psychological reductionism that underlies the superiority
argument in question. As I see it, you argue that, far from being morally
and intellectually superior, European males were exceptionally evil - as
Patrick Bond wrote:
Comrade Doug, isn't it time to go beyond marginal changes in GDP
and profit rates for these kinds of "proofs" of K's alleged virility...
And find indicators that tell the story you've already decided you
want to tell?
Far be it from me to use a word like virility. But as
At 01:13 AM 9/22/99 -0400, James Blaut wrote:
Most of the arguments for this uniqueness doctrine fall
back on putatively unique psychological qualities:
mentality, rationality, venturesomeness, inquisitiveness,
inventiveness, aggressiveness, bloodthirtyness, the Judeo-
Christian ethic, etc., etc.
--- Forwarded Message Follows ---
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 19:37:56 -0400
Reply-to: H-NET List for World History [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: whitney howarth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: European Expansion and Global Interaction: CFP
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blaut:
In other words, those who question the belief that Europeans were better,
brighter, and bolder than everyone else before 1500 are the real "true
believers." Perhaps the proposition should be reversed.?
More crucially, Ricardo insists upon the utterly conventional view that
yes,
Just for the record, this unfortunate remark of mine only came after a series of
sardonic remarks by Steve. But I guess the "we" of pen-l prevails...
Ricardo Duchesne wrote:
Oh, please, little Stevie grow up!
This discussion has been becomming a little testy. Now it is starting to
Ricardo:
You must admit that Darity - in what you cite below - is all over
the place, shifting his analysis from the slave trade, to the colonial
trade, to
total foreign trade, and back to the slave trade - presumably hoping
that one of his arguments will hit the right target.
Mat:
I will
New bumper sticker:
Practice acts of random sectarianism and senseless defeatism.
mbs
it is up to people like us to ensure that those countries sponsoring the
intervention are pressured into a following a genuinely humanitarian course
. . . Our responsibility
is to continue various random
Michael Keany:
As one willing to have his mind changed by superior argument, regardless of
its geographical source, what would be the principled Marxist response to
the problems of East Timor? I am sufficiently familiar with the awful
history, and recognise the culpability, complicity,
Jim B writes:
See my earlier comment that the slave labor basically anteceded industrial
wage labor (England) -- apples and oranges.
I don't understand this (especially the reference to fruit). Of course
there was slavery in England before the rise of wage labor there.
If you're referring to
Michael Keaney wrote:
Louis,
As one willing to have his mind changed by superior argument, regardless of
its geographical source, what would be the principled Marxist response to
the problems of East Timor? I am sufficiently familiar with the awful
history, and recognise the culpability,
Message:
The Globe and Mail, Wednesday, September 22, 1999
Human-rights group lashes out at 'widespread' police brutality
Most U.S. officers accused of abuses go unpunished, Amnesty says
By Paul Koring
Washington -- Police brutality, especially against members of racial and
ethnic
BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 1999
RELEASED TODAY: In April through June of 1999, there were 1,430 mass layoff
actions by employers that resulted in the separation of 286,436 workers from
their jobs for more than 30 days. Both the number of layoff events and the
number of
Louis
Thanks for forwarding the Pilger article. I have great respect for John
Pilger and all that he has done in campaigning not only for East Timor, but
on behalf of the Australian aborigines and Cambodians, among many others. If
only there were more like him.
He may be correct about the
E. Timor will become like Haiti. The capitalist countries will ensure that a
neo-liberal regime rules and that Australia (or maybe the U.S.) will get control
of the oil.
Michael Keaney wrote:
As one willing to have his mind changed by superior argument, regardless of
its geographical
Carrol:
I think that the educated guesses made by you, Lou, Jim B, etc. are
pretty good guesses. But that is all they are, and I want to base my
anti-imperialist and anti-racist politics on something firmer than
educated guesses about a past empirical state of affairs or hypotheses
however
Michael Keaney wrote:
As one willing to have his mind changed by superior argument, regardless of
its geographical source, what would be the principled Marxist response to
the problems of East Timor? I am sufficiently familiar with the awful
history, and recognise the culpability, complicity,
BTW, unless things have changed drastically, the guy some have dismissed as
"Eurocentric" (Bob Brenner) is a leader of Solidarity.
Not that one thing has much to do with another, but Solidarity has just
endorsed UN troops in East Timor, a clear violation of Marxist principles.
Louis Proyect
I was away at the time and wanted to give Patrick's post, below, due
consideration.
I would point out under this thread title that the Economist has just
carried a detailed article on this theme. One of the additional points is
the intensified in-fighting between some officials of the World Bank
Folks:
There is no way that I can answer the 50+ messages about
colonialism and the rise of Europe that seem to ask for a
response from me. I'll respond to some of them. First, a
few general points that may clear up some matters.
1.
The issue I'm focusing on
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