I also went to grad school in U. Mass. in economics and have a very
different opinion of the faculty there than that expressed by Steve
Cullenberg and Blair Sandler. I don't think I know Rhon Baiman but my
experiences with Rick Wolff there do not seem all that different from what
Rhon claims he
I strongly doubt there is *anyone* on this list who considers Rick Wolff to
be "an infallible god and guru." Perhaps your difficulties with him have to
do with the fact that your expectations along these lines were
disappointed? The rest of your post expressing your experience at UMass was
Dear Pen-L
I went to a university once.
Once of the lecturers there hated me.
He/she kicked me out of the class.
I won't tell you why.
So fuckin what!
kind regards
bill
--
## William F. Mitchell
### Head of Economics Department
There are frequently major differences in ideology, perspective, and
personalities among faculty and students in different economics
departments. This is also - and sometimes even more - the case at radical
econ. departments. It is by no means limited to UMass/Amherst.
I was also burned by a
So does that basically mean you decided to actually _listen_ to the people
you were working to organize? Radical perhaps, but hardly new.
Pomo challenged, just trying to understand,
Cute!? Are you aware of things like "paradigms"--nothing fancy,
really--structures of thought that prevent
Cheap shot; an act of cowardice, really! (It is the mark of cowards to
enter a fray when they "imagine"--incorrectly in this case, I am sure--that
the object of their venomous vitriolics has been weakened. I thought
Blair's comment (about your own expectations) was very perceptive. I don't
know
Personal attacks such as the one below are totally out of place. Wolff and
Resnick were brought into this discussion because of their work; it is a
mark of really sick minds to take a theoretical discussion as an oportunity
to vent their personal venom. I would ask all of the people with whom we
Dear Gerald Levy,
Perhaps what you say has validity as an issue in general. You, however,
were careful not to levy personal charges out of context, as Baimoan and
bohmer have with respect to Resnick and Wolff. If we want to discuss this
general issue at some point, it might be a good thing. BUT
Antonio C wrote:
Perhaps what you say has validity as an issue in general. You, however,
were careful not to levy personal charges out of context, as Baimoan and
bohmer have with respect to Resnick and Wolff. If we want to discuss this
general issue at some point, it might be a good thing.
bill mitchell wrote,
I went to a university once.
Once of the lecturers there hated me.
He/she kicked me out of the class.
I won't tell you why.
So fuckin what!
Yeah! And I've been screwed by professors, fucked over by bosses, ripped-off
by landlords, jilted by girlfriends, dragged by security
At 6:18 AM 11/3/96, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On the other hand, I agree that this aspect is "hardly new"; the only
trouble is that the traditional left has used its theory not to learn to
listen and communicate, but as a set of ideological blinders, by which only
some agents (workers, and, then,
Michael,
I am sorry I did not see your message before responding to Ron and to
Peter. Had I seen it, it might have tempered my anger; but, boy was I
angry. And neither Rick wolff nor Steve Resnick are on Pen-L, and it was
only fair that somebody stand up for them. Thank you for your intervention.
hey jerry,
please skip the sanctimonious preaching re: please learn to read more
carefully.
in solidarity,
michael yates
friends,
i do sign my remarks, "in solidarity" but i don't believe that i've ever made a
scurrilous attack on anyone.
in solidarity,
michael yates
Rather than continuing to pour old whine into new bottles, would anyone mind
if I present for PEN-Lers' viewing pleasure, a treatment for a pop-up book
that I'm constructing? For those who might wonder what this has to do with
progressive economics, I would like to point out that this
Michael Yates wrote:
i do sign my remarks, "in solidarity" but i don't believe that i've
ever made a scurrilous attack on anyone.
See [PEN-L:7175].
Sanctimonious preaching,
Jerry
I can certainly appreciate that some former students can have [legitimate
or illegitimate] grievances against individual faculty members. But ... I
would strongly prefer that those grievances not be aired on PEN-L.
Moreover, demands that individuals apologize would only mean that this
rather
Correlation is not causation, fer sure, but I notice that the assertion of
all these new ways of knowing and doing have coincided with the rise of the
right. If these new modes were of such great practical utility, why aren't
we seeing some results? And why is it that in the U.S. at least the
Let us put the pomo discussion to rest. More harm has been done than
information shared in the last posts.
For newcomers, we have put discussion of Israel on hold, for similar
reasons.
The personal is not political, at least as far as this discussion has
gone.
I guess we can conclude, that
Antonio Callari (or E. King-Callari- is this the decentred self?) writes:
pomo validates a variety of strategies and sites of struggle that the
unidimensionality of traditional, modernist Marxism, does not permit. If
your own experiences
In a message dated 96-11-03 04:23:31 EST, you write:
Finally, I expect the people on this list who consider Rick Wolff to be an
infallible god and guru to be incensed by my criticisms of him and respond
with a lot of verbiage. Given the priorities in my life, I am unlikely to
respond.
In a message dated 96-11-03 04:23:31 EST, you write:
Finally, I expect the people on this list who consider Rick Wolff to be an
infallible god and guru to be incensed by my criticisms of him and respond
with a lot of verbiage. Given the priorities in my life, I am unlikely to
respond.
Good points, Doug!
Talk about caricature without evidence. What about generations of
"traditional" leftists who organized unions and fought for civil rights,
with tremendous dedication and at great risk and sacrifice? This
"traditional" left has existed almost nowhere except in the minds of
Has anyone seen the 94 minute video put out by CBC called "Who's Counting"?
The video features Marilyn Waring and highlights her criticism of modern
economics particularly the UN system of national accounts --e.g.
housework, child care, etc. would not be counted but a disastrous oil spill
would
I would like to thank A. Callari, S. Charuseela, B. Sandler among others
for their
postings. I found that they clarified some of my concerns at least.
I still have real difficulties with the nature of pomo discourse having been
brought up in the tradition of analytical philosophy and as a logical
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
P.S. The slogan "Let 100 hundred flowers bloom and 100 schools of thought
contend" is a strange slogan to use to cut off discussion. It surely
implies the opposite should occur. The hidden Maoist agenda
of course may have been to encourage the weeds to grow so that
Sorry. Last message sent before reading Michael's call for a time-out.
- Gil
Aware of things like paradigms? Yes.
That "real" listening may not come easily, may have to be learned? Yes.
Cute? Well... I don't know how to do a 'smiley' with tongue in cheek...
which also makes it harder to talk clearly, I guess. My point, you see,
was not that 'listening' is new, or easy,
Gerald,
Thank you for your response about grad schools. I was hoping for more
than two informative reponses out of the some eighty or so messages I
have received in my inbox from PEN-L in the last several days. Oh well!
Thanks again.
jon
On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, Gerald Levy wrote:
There are
Bill,
I am sure you are right; but i find the instructions more impenetrable than
some of the most complex pomo works. I'll have to ask for help from the
computer people in my capitalist school.
Antonio
Antonio Callari (or E. King-Callari- is this the decentred self?)
Ah? It's the damned
The video "Who's Counting?" about Marilyn Waring is put out by the
National Film Board of Canada not the CBC. If anyone is interested in
it there are two phone numbers:
1-800-267-7710 in Canada
1-800-542-2164 in the US.
I suppose Aussies, Kiwis, etc. can take their
Ken Hanly wrote ...
Waring was an MP for three terms in New Zealand. From the video it seemed as if
she were more or less retired to a small farm where she appreciates the
lifestyle. She had travelled throughout the world doing time studies of women's
versus men's work. As she points out in
Just about everyone I know has horror stories from graduate school
about perceived scholar despots, inner cliques, "old boy networks
etc". But that level gets us no where beyond anecdotes.
A few years ago Dave Colander and Bob Coats edited a book "The
Dissemination of Economic Ideas" based on
Let us put the pomo discussion to rest. More harm has been done than
information shared in the last posts.
For newcomers, we have put discussion of Israel on hold, for similar
reasons.
The personal is not political, at least as far as this discussion has
gone.
I guess we can conclude, that
I read the book a while ago and found it as you found the video a bit
simplistic but basically good. Note however that her economics is basically
NC externality theory. In all my intro and intermediate level mainstream
(NC) classes I use the diagrams on pp. 300-301 to situate the NC theory of
I must say, I preferred Carmen (or Turandot or ...) when I did not understand
the words, there was no translation, and I could make up the story to go with
the characters and the music and the scenery. Now that they have that big
translation over the stage at Lincoln Center I have dropped my
This was sent and re-sent, hope it gets through. maggie
Subject: Fwd: [PEN-L:7158] Re: Pomo: Swimming or drawning
Bill, I'm not sure if we agree or disagree -- but maybe that's pomo at its
best!
I think that pomo has been very useful in some senses -- it has certainly
forced diversity into a
Blair wrote
So, are you requesting tolerance and ordering a time out or may I, as I get
time, try to relate my sense of the three books I mentioned as examples of
accessible, political theory based on pomoish insights?
I would prefer the tolerance. Earlier it looked as if it was fast
Maggie,
Are you really saying that when you really found out what
the pomos were saying that you gave up reading them entirely?
Don't blame you, but the music is still beautiful!
Paul
1.Blair posts the following from a friend: Currently my image is
the following: Marxists see society as a spider net with economics
embedded. All parts, strings, are interrelated and processes define
the entity; a soft wind blow and the whole net starts wobbling.
Neoclassical theorists
oops. I just sent an "off-list communication" meant for Steve
Cullenberg to pen-l as a whole.
Sorry to waste bandwidth. I guess it won't be too disastrous. Sorry
about that, Ron.
in pen-l solidarity,
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Econ. Dept.,
you write: Indeed, I've about had it with people on pen-l
putting out insulting attacks and signing their emails "in
solidarity". Who do you think you're kidding?
Since your use the plural word "people" above and because I
sign my pen-l missives "in solidarity," I must make one thing
Antonio writes: . I would ask all of the people with whom we
have been having a discussion to disassociate themselves from
these attacks and to condemn them.
Sure, I'll absolutely condemn the personal attacks on leftist
professors that have shown up on pen-l. Such attacks don't
On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 96-11-03 04:23:31 EST, you write:
Finally, I expect the people on this list who consider Rick Wolff to be an
infallible god and guru to be incensed by my criticisms of him and respond
with a lot of verbiage. Given the
Michael Albert, the co-editor of Z magazine, asked me to forward this to
Pen-l and I have decided to do so. Michael is a close friend of mine
although I do not agree with his criticism that Marxism reflects the
interests of the co-ordinator class. We have argued this point for many,
many years
Sorry for the empty message i just sent. the mailer is giving a little trouble
today.
anyway, the new idea i comment on is "People and Their Ideas".
jim said:
My criticism (explicit or implicit) of the Post-Modernist
authors and their tradition are NOT personal attacks. There's
a big
When Habermas said that "technology and science become a leading productive
force, rendering inoperative the condition for Marx's labor theory of
value" and "scientific-technical progress has become an independent source
of surplus value" he contributes to an erasure of the working class from
There's the famous bit in Capital, beloved of all red-greens, about how
progress in capitalist production jointly robs the worker and the soil. Was
Marx thereby a proto-postie?
Doug
___
One could seriously make the claim that Marx does stand on the boderline of
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