For what its worth, Universidad del CEMA is one of the most reactionary
(i.e. neoliberal) universities/think tanks of Argentina. Ex finance
minister Roque Fernandez (the guy who succeeded Cavallo in 1995) was from CEMA.
Alan
At 1/14/2002, you wrote:
Corporate Governance: An International
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Doug Henwood wrote:
Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
yes what the previous collapse in basic memory chips suggests is
that constant capital had cheapened so considerably (esp relative to
consumer goods as is almost the case, I believe) that the rate of
profit on the lower
On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Doug Henwood wrote:
Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
At any rate, the crisis hit Dept I first. Consumption was not a
problem. We also know Marx's famous vol II passge in which he
criticizes underconsumption. Consumption will now give.
We'll see. Wall Street's favorite
http://www.guardian.co.uk/quiz/questions/0,5961,612460,00.html
I am having a problem with this discussion. Marx, for me, is wholistic.
To say that profits, consumption, or investment causes a crisis seems
problematical -- since all are interconnected and enmeshed with
expectations.
Am I missing something?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Chairman
of the Federal Reserve since 1988, Greenspan visited the campus for a talk at Stude Concert Hall sponsored by the James A. Baker III
Institute for Public Policy. Following his lecture, he received the Baker
Institute's Enron Prize for Distinguished Public Service. The prize, made
Fred M. writes: I agree completely that the causes of this recession have
little to do with consumption (at least so far), and have mostly to do with
falling profits and investment. This is the main point I have been arguing
in my discussion with Jim D.
actually, it's not an argument in the
Fred B. Moseley wrote:
Doug, are you agreeing with Hyman and this growing consensus? What about
the recovery of profits and investment? If the cause of this recession is
mostly falling profits and investment, as we seem to agree, isn't a
necessary condition for recovery from the recession the
Devine, James wrote:
Hasn't he also said that consumer spending is what's been holding up the
U.S. economy? My point -- and that of Godley Izureta, who also go beyond
surface appearances to think about the determinants of private-sector
spending -- is that this prop can't last. Similarly,
From: ALI KADRI [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21378] Re: Argentina--how the asset stripping took off
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 23:20:46 -0800 (PST)
Isn't Brazil in a much worse position, macro
accounting and socially. Th exposure is such that
Jim D attempts to assure us:
actually, it's not an argument in the sense of a quarrel (and definitely
not a contradiction à la Monty Python). It's a discussion. (In this
thread, I had a argument with someone else. Or was it a contradiction?
Whatever, it was a waste of time.)
But Jim D had
Rakesh, please don't try to classify others on the list. Let Jim speak for
himself as to whether he is a social democrat or not, if he chooses to do
so.
As to untangling causes, it is hard to say. I recall that the CEO of Ford
wondered how the industry could deal with overcapacity -- this was
Rakesh, please don't try to classify others on the list. Let Jim speak for
himself as to whether he is a social democrat or not, if he chooses to do
so.
michael, i quoted jim d saying that social democracy is best for the
capitalists and thus can thus presumably be imposed on them for
their
I don't consider myself a social democrat, but I agree with Jim -- if I
understand him correctly. SD is good for the capitalists. That does not
make it the Valhalla for others. It is merely a social form that reduces
conflict and thus improves efficiency.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 10:03:26AM
[was: RE: [PEN-L:21387] Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: the profit rate recession]
I wrote:
Hasn't he also said that consumer spending is what's been holding up the
U.S. economy? My point -- and that of Godley Izureta, who also go beyond
surface appearances to think about the determinants of
I cite the likes of Hyman, though, because lefties always overstay
the recession, and are among the last diehards clinging to recession.
Doug
---
Where can I get ahold of his stuff?
Christian
- Original Message -
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The worst case scenario involves fascism, which would probably be called
something else while being very different from the fascism of the 1930s
1940s. (I can imagine that a big environmental crisis would encourage the
worst
I don't consider myself a social democrat, but I agree with Jim -- if I
understand him correctly. SD is good for the capitalists. That does not
make it the Valhalla for others. It is merely a social form that reduces
conflict and thus improves efficiency.
michael, social forms that
The worst case scenario involves fascism, which would
probably be called
something else while being very different from the fascism of
the 1930s
1940s. (I can imagine that a big environmental crisis would
encourage the
worst of authoritarianisms.)
=
Not that we're at
presumably not in reply to me, Jim D writes:
As I
suggested in an earlier missive, social democracy is good for capitalism,
since it rationalizes the accumulation process a bit (as with Keynesian
economic policies or state investment in human capital, infrastructure,
etc.)
social democracy
Jim, what you wrote is very good, although I take exception at one point.
I agree with Marx's view, as I understand it, that the shocks of a crisis
can strengthen capitalism, if it can withstand the shock. At some point,
a small unexpected shock can suffice to topple the whole edifice.
Marx, of
Michael Perelman writes: I only wanted to say that recovery is not always
certain.
Right. It's also possible that we could see recovery for the capitalists --
as the Wall Street folks predict -- without an immediate recovery for
workers. In fact, a lot of people predict that real GDP will start
- Original Message -
From: Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED]
the current kind of authoritarianism is actually making matters worse. I was
talking about the kind that would be a reaction when the environmental
crisis actually hits capitalists below the belt, hurting profitability.
Jim
the current kind of authoritarianism is actually making
matters worse. I was
talking about the kind that would be a reaction when the environmental
crisis actually hits capitalists below the belt, hurting
profitability.
Jim
===
You mean there will be another class of
January 15, 2002/New York TIMES
Crony Capitalism, U.S.A.
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Four years ago, as Asia struggled with an economic crisis, many observers
blamed crony capitalism. Wealthy businessmen in Asia didn't bother to tell
investors the truth about their assets, their liabilities or their profits;
Michael Perelman wrote:
I don't consider myself a social democrat, but I agree with Jim -- if I
understand him correctly. SD is good for the capitalists.
So why do they generally oppose social democracy? Don't they
understand their own interests?
And when are those contradictions of
Michael Perelman wrote:
Fred's approach of looking at profits makes a great deal of sense when
looking at long swings, but in the short run -- as to what causes a
particular downturn -- identification is still a problem.
What is the political importance of understanding the
Doug, that I think that the big capitalists do understand their interest.
The small ones to whom the Wall Street Journal appeals on their editorial
page do not. We were just discussing yesterday how major businesspeople
appreciate Marxist analysis.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 02:15:22PM -0500, Doug
On Tuesday, January 15, 2002 at 14:15:22 (-0500) Doug Henwood writes:
Michael Perelman wrote:
I don't consider myself a social democrat, but I agree with Jim -- if I
understand him correctly. SD is good for the capitalists.
So why do they generally oppose social democracy? Don't they
James A. Baker Institute for Public Policy?
Enron Prize?
Chairman Greenspan?
Ah, the cunning of reason, the genius of capitalism, the stench of
sycophancy. It's enough to make you choke on your pretzels.
Michael Perelman wrote:
Doug, that I think that the big capitalists do understand their interest.
The small ones to whom the Wall Street Journal appeals on their editorial
page do not. We were just discussing yesterday how major businesspeople
appreciate Marxist analysis.
Yes, because they
I don't know if anyone is familiar with Darity's thesis about managerial
society or the managerial mode of production, which he believes has
developed out of capitalism. I am not sure if I agree that managerial
society is a distinct mode of production that had superceded capitalism,
but I
[was: RE: [PEN-L:21410] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: the
profit rate recession]
Michael Perelman wrote:
Doug, that I think that the big capitalists do understand their interest.
The small ones to whom the Wall Street Journal appeals on their editorial
page do not. We were
I agree with Jim. SD began in Sweden, for example, after a general
strike. After a while, business forgot its origins and only saw its
inconvenient side.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 12:26:51PM -0800, Devine, James wrote:
[was: RE: [PEN-L:21410] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re: the
Michael Perelman wrote:
Fred's approach of looking at profits makes a great deal of sense when
looking at long swings, but in the short run -- as to what causes a
particular downturn -- identification is still a problem.
What is the political importance of understanding the economics
I agree with Jim. SD began in Sweden, for example, after a general
strike. After a while, business forgot its origins and only saw its
inconvenient side.
I agree with neither Jim nor Michael. The class struggle cannot now
force upon the capitalist class a social democratic regime that
Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
I agree with Jim. SD began in Sweden, for example, after a general
strike. After a while, business forgot its origins and only saw its
inconvenient side.
I agree with neither Jim nor Michael. The class struggle cannot now
force upon the capitalist class a social
- Original Message -
From: Forstater, Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 11:56 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:21408] RE: RE: Re: RE: Re: crisis causes the end of capitalism?
I don't know if anyone is familiar with Darity's thesis about managerial
society
--- Original Message ---
From: Tausch, Arno [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 1/15/02 3:57:57 AM
Please pass this on to your list: with kind regards
Arno Tausch
Announcing from NOVA
http://www.nexusworld.com/nova/
1) Global Keynesianism: Unequal Exchange and Global Exploitation
January 15, 2002
Rocky Start for Harvard President
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 1:37 p.m. ET
BOSTON (AP) -- Lawrence Summers was touring the Harvard University athletic fields in
September when
he saw a group of linemen lunging for the football. Without warning, Summers -- in
suit and tie
The class struggle cannot now
force upon the capitalist class a social democratic regime that
neutralizes the growth in the rate of exploitation and allows for
the run up of public debt for the purposes of full employment. Such
a social democratic regime would not only not weaken crisis
Devine, James wrote:
Also, I don't think anyone claimed that social democracy abolished the
exploitation of labor or even reduced its degree. (I understand that
businesses under Swedish social democracy did rather well in terms of
profits, or at least that the big ones did. Doug would probably
May I remember that Marx saw a limit (Schranke) to capitalism, due to the
development of productivity (B.3, ch 15)?
In fact, there are two Marxs:
1. The one of the absolute surplus value as the main factor of
accumulation. That surplus value being extracted from the work of each
producer, the
At 15/01/02 11:25 -0800, you wrote:
Doug, that I think that the big capitalists do understand their interest.
The small ones to whom the Wall Street Journal appeals on their editorial
page do not. We were just discussing yesterday how major businesspeople
appreciate Marxist analysis.
On Tue,
crisis causes the end of capitalism?
by Devine, James
15 January 2002 18:20 UTC
[was: the profit rate recession]
Doug writes:
You may be right. But I've heard this line many times before. Godley
also said some dire things about the UK a decade ago, and the UK did
get a big
Doug Henwood wrote:
And when are those contradictions of capitalism that Rakesh is
talking about really going to bite? I mean something more than a
nibble. The phrase has been around for what, like a century?
They've been biting every second of every day for several hundred years.
the profitrate recession
by Rakesh Bhandari
15 January 2002 18:28 UTC
michael, social forms that domesticate the class struggle are
obviously to the advantage of the capitalist class. whether the
capitalist class can afford to do so by allowing wages to increase to
maintain or lessen the
Charles Brown writes: I'm with Jim D. We might formulate a
neo-Rooseveltian approach. Roosevelt's final inaugural address gives us the
framework for an Economic Bill of Rights.
Charles, I wasn't actually advocating social democracy or New Dealism.
Rather, my point was that these types of
Devine, James wrote:
BTW, Doug: how do you reconcile high profits under Swedish social democracy
with such an egalitarian income distribution?
A lot of the profits came from exports. As Swedish firms
multinationalized,production and associated profits moved abroad, and
cheaper labor than
theprofit rate recession
by Doug Henwood
15 January 2002 20:20 UTC
Michael Perelman wrote:
Doug, that I think that the big capitalists do understand their interest.
The small ones to whom the Wall Street Journal appeals on their editorial
page do not. We were just discussing yesterday how
crisis causes the end of capitalism?
by Devine, James
15 January 2002 20:24 UTC
What I was thinking of is more along the line of rule by experts within
capitalism. Usually, when there's some type of emergency, the capitalist let
the experts rule. That doesn't mean they'd do a good job.
social democracy
by Devine, James
15 January 2002 20:29 UTC
that's only looking at social democracy after it passed. When it arose, it
helped defuse grass-roots class struggles, gave trade unions and social
democratic parties the job of disciplining their members, taking some
Carrol:
What is the political importance of understanding the economics of a
particular recession (or boom)?
Marx's concern with crises, as with other features of capitalism, was
primarily, it seems to me, focused on the question of whether capitalism
was a natural or historical system, not on
It is like Darity's managerialism.
See William A. Darity, Jr., The Undersirables, America's Underclass in
the Managerial Age: Beyond the Myrdal Theory of Racial Inequality
Daedalus: proceedings of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. 124,
no. 1, (Winter 1995): 145ff. and the references
Maybe more accessible for some would be William A. Darity, Racial
Inequality in the Managerial age American Economic Review, Vol. 80, No.
2, May 1990, pp. 247-251.
The social dominance of industry has given over to the social dominance
of the intellectuals and the intelligentsia--a
Further to the story about Alan Greenspan's "Enron
Prize" from the "James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy" at Rice
University. The following account of Enron business transactions is from the
Jan. 7 Forbes. The kicker is in the penultimate sentence.
In June 2000, for example, Enron
Didn't the energy crisis hit Sweden particularly hard?
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 05:49:33PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote:
Devine, James wrote:
BTW, Doug: how do you reconcile high profits under Swedish social democracy
with such an egalitarian income distribution?
A lot of the profits came
Charles Brown wrote:
[Rakesh apparently wrote:
But Marx's wholly original tasks included:
1. to develop a general theory of transitions from one mode of
production to another--the so called materialist theory of history
which explains said transitions as a climax of an inevitable
Another Swedish question. Doesn't Sweden have one of the most
concentrated industrial structures in the world?
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 04:20:44PM -0500, Doug Henwood wrote:
Devine, James wrote:
Also, I don't think anyone claimed that social democracy abolished the
exploitation of labor or
Michael Perelman wrote:
Another Swedish question. Doesn't Sweden have one of the most
concentrated industrial structures in the world?
Yup, think it does. The Wallenberg family's Investor trust controls
some enormous portion of Swedish industry. Such structures are good
for social democracy;
Roman mentioned absolute vs. relative surplus value. That is indeed the
key to discussing Social Democracy. If the capitalists need to rely on
brute labor to produce their commodities -- where workers have no
discretion -- then Social Democracy will not have much of a payoff. In
this sense,
- Original Message -
From: Michael Perelman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:21440] Sweden
Roman mentioned absolute vs. relative surplus
value. That is indeed the
key to discussing Social Democracy. If the
capitalists
^^^
Rakesh, this post kind of undercuts your claim to understand Marx's
theory and ideas more deeply than others here. Marx's theory of the
business cycle was not a particularly important expression of either
1), or 3) that you list above. The business cycle is involved in 2)
,but is
This is an argument against strawpeople. I'm still waiting to hear
what type of working class demands the Rakesh-Fred,-Mattick's
analysis ( that recession is caused by falling profits and
investment) imply. Or is it that they consider all reform demands
revisionist Marxism ?
Grossmann
I don't know whether Rakesh ever answered my question a few weeks
ago, but do you or Fred or the Matticks generate any reform demands
based on your style of analyzing cyclical crisis ?
Charles, wage demands, as well as well as the limitations on the
working day, are usually supported
Michael Perelman wrote:
Roman mentioned absolute vs. relative surplus value. That is indeed the
key to discussing Social Democracy. If the capitalists need to rely on
brute labor to produce their commodities -- where workers have no
discretion -- then Social Democracy will not have
Ian, the midwife relates to the Burnham thesis that someone
mentioned earlier. Marx believed that the institutions of
socialism were forming within capitalism. He believed that the
joint stock companies were such an institution.
Ian Murray wrote:
I'm puzzled by the midwife metaphor as it
Rakesh, please leave the personal out of the discussions.
Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
I said I understood Marxian theory more deeply than Carrol Cox.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929
Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Carrol, as wages have declined and production shifted offshore, the US has
moved very much more in the brute force direction, despite a small minority
engaged in the New Economy and the like.
Carrol Cox wrote:
What was brue labor as opposed to workers' skills and discretion at
one point in
Rakesh, please leave the personal out of the discussions.
OK. Carrol is not only wrong but egregiously wrong that Marx's
accomplishment is best understood as the denaturalization or
historicization of both categories of political economy and the
bourgeois economy itself.
Rakesh
All you have to say is, my interpretation is ... Others can decide for
themselves who is correct.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 05:53:53PM -0800, Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
Rakesh, please leave the personal out of the discussions.
OK. Carrol is not only wrong but egregiously wrong that Marx's
This brings us back to the discussion that set off the thread on
crises. Capitalism has proven resilient and has withstood a number of
shocks over the centuries.
yes, michael, but the question is how are crises overcome? jim's
theory leads to one conclusion--raising consumption and/or prices
- Original Message -
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 5:51 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:21446] Re: Re: Sweden
Ian, the midwife relates to the Burnham thesis that
someone
mentioned earlier. Marx believed that the institutions
of
From: Forstater, Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21408] RE: RE: Re: RE: Re: crisis causes the end of
capitalism?
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:56:55 -0600
I don't know if anyone is familiar with Darity's thesis about managerial
society
Does that apply to Carrol, too? He said Rakesh was not interesting.
Rakesh, is always interesting.
Even handedness in the disciplining of list ecology, plz.
Michael Pugliese
--- Original Message ---
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 1/15/02 5:52:31 PM
Special Sectiion-Imperialism
Roundtable Imperialism: A Useful Category of
Historical Analysis?
Selections from RHR 57. Roundtable Contents: ...
http://chnm.gmu.edu/rhr/special.htm
Selections from RHR 57
Roundtable Contents:
Introduction
Van Gosse
The Age of Ultraimperialism
Carl Parrini
I missed that. Obviously, I should have noted it.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 06:32:53PM -0800, michael pugliese wrote:
Does that apply to Carrol, too? He said Rakesh was not interesting.
Rakesh, is always interesting.
Even handedness in the disciplining of list ecology, plz.
Michael
It is a little late for this thread but this also sounds like
Galbraith's THE NEW INDUSTRIAL STATE
Devine, James wrote:
I don't know if anyone is familiar with Darity's thesis about managerial
society or the managerial mode of production, which he believes has
developed out of capitalism.
I would say that devaluation of fictitious capital [specifically corporate
capital, not government paper] is important in raising the rate of profit.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 06:12:16PM -0800, Rakesh Bhandari wrote:
This brings us back to the discussion that set off the thread on
crises.
- Original Message -
From: Ian Murray [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 6:15 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:21452] Re: Re: Re: Sweden
- Original Message -
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002
I don't know where Marx came up with that idea, but in a way it
conflicted with his more important theory -- that social
relations were the key. For Marx and Engels, managers showed
that capitalists were unnecessary. Besides centralization
created a form conducive to socialist organization. He
- Original Message -
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 7:08 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:21460] Re: Sweden
I don't know where Marx came up with that idea, but in
a way it
conflicted with his more important theory -- that
social
[Surely the issues can be made bigger than this, eh?]
As Enron scandal spreads, US starts to question cash
for influence culture
Julian Borger in Washington and David Teather in New
York
Wednesday January 16, 2002
The Guardian
The Enron scandal has pushed US politics to the brink
of a
Galbraith's book dates to the mid-1950s. Peter Drucker
also wrote a book on similar lines in the early 1940s. I would credit Berle and
Means as the earliest articulate version of the theory (or story) in the U.S.
There are also parallels with earlier Frankfurt School writings by Horkheimer
Actually, it starts with Marx.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2002 at 08:52:23PM -0800, Tom Walker wrote:
Galbraith's book dates to the mid-1950s. Peter Drucker also wrote a book on similar
lines in the early 1940s. I would credit Berle and Means as the earliest articulate
version of the theory (or story)
Another indispensable text [rrr too
many books but hey I read that one, anyway] that I've
mentioned on this list before is Scott Bowman's 'The
Modern Corporation and American Political Thought'; and
from a Euro perspective Property and Power in Social
Theory A Study in
Ian Murray asked,
And what would Wittgenstein say about all those
sentences? :-)
Dunno. Will you settle for Edna Ullmann-Margalit
referring to Wittgenstein in a discussion of the invisible hand and the cunning
of reason?
"Only when an
invisible-hand mechanism can be pointed to, can the
- Original Message -
From:
Tom Walker
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:04
PM
Subject: [PEN-L:21466] Re: Evil
genius?
Ian Murray asked,
And what would Wittgenstein say about all
those sentences? :-)
Dunno. Will you
As of 10:20 p.m
pacific time, January 15, a google search on genius of capitalism and enron
returned 453 hits. Following the below news item from AFP, I've added a few more
pre-enron allusions to the genius. I do believe Secretary O'Neill has spoken
thephrase that willsomeday appear inhis
[Oil Gas Journal]
http://ogj.pennnet.com/home.cfm
US companies say timetable may slip on Saudi gas deals
Maureen Lorenzetti
OGJ Online
WASHINGTON, DC, Jan. 14 --US companies fear that $30
billion in gas deals scheduled to be finalized this
March with Saudi Arabia may be delayed because of
From: Forstater, Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21408] RE: RE: Re: RE: Re: crisis causes the end of
capitalism?
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 13:56:55 -0600
I don't know if anyone is familiar with Darity's thesis about managerial
society or
sending the same message again under new header so it doesn't get
lost to those who are interested. rb
From: Forstater, Mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:21408] RE: RE: Re: RE: Re: crisis causes the end of
capitalism?
Date: Tue, 15 Jan
Michael bless your cotton socks for the addrss below.
I have been trying to argue something similar and thought I was totally alone on this
intellectually.
But there is is, I have only skimmed so far but I am already gob-smacked!!!
Thanks! Thanks! and Thanks again!
THE ADDRESS AGAIN
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