of that.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
made), stdarg.h is safe.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
by
expressing one's opinion that the decisions various platforms made were
stupid. :)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
that
I've *never* seen wrapped in ifdef even in code meant to compile on
extremely strange systems.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
problems.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Brent Dax [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Russ Allbery:
# POSIX reserves all types ending in _t. I'm not sure that extends to
# struct tags, but it may still be better to use _s or something else
# instead to avoid potential problems.
My understanding is that it only reserves types that start
equivalence does nothing as
ill-conceived as unifying e and e', for very good reason because that
would be a horrible mistake.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
, so -Wredundant-decls possibly could get pulled back in.
-Wundef is a style thing.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
by POSIX and may be used without
warning in later versions of the standard. (This comes up not
infrequently in some of the groups I read, but I unfortunately don't have
a copy of POSIX to check for myself and be sure.)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Robert Spier [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, 2001-10-23 at 20:52, Russ Allbery wrote:
Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Once we build miniparrot, then *everything* can be done in
perl. Having hacked auto* stuff, I think that'd be a good
thing. (autoconf and friends are unmitigated
Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure what there is to expand on. I've looked at 2.50, and it
definitely doesn't look like an unmitigated evil hack to me. It looks
like a collection of tests for various standard things that packages need
to know to compile, put together about
for.
(In the case above, I'd probably instead define a sleep function on WIN32
that calls Sleep so that the platform differences are in a separate file,
but there are other examples of things like this that are better suited to
other techniques.)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http
the other night... :) and
it'll let us skip some of the more awkward bits of make.
I can certainly see the features of that approach. It just seems like
quite a lot of work.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
at the facilities for dynamic loading provided by libtool before
rolling our own again may also be a good idea; it's designed to support
dynamically loadable modules.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
inside)
I've looked inside a lot, and I definitely do not agree. But maybe you've
not seen autoconf 2.50 and later?
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Definitely bugs in Configure there; cc has to be used as the linker or -lc
isn't added (and possibly some of the other crt.o files too), and
libraries have to be after all the object files.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
be performed.
Something akin to gcc's --enable-checking strikes me as a really good
idea.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Gibbs Tanton - tgibbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
* CVS Info
* $RCSfile: $
* $Revision: $
* $Date: $
If you're going to include all that, why not just use $Id$, which contains
all of that information?
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org
language I've ever seen uses = and =. I think
adding additional comparison operators not found in any other language and
identical to (and harder to type than!) existing operators is a really bad
idea.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
raptor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I was looking at Interbase SELECT syntax and saw these two handy
shortcuts :
operator = {= | | | = | = | ! | ! | | !=}
! and !
How is ! different from =?
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From: Russ Allbery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
How is ! different from =?
It's just more syntax just like foo != bar
is the same as (foo bar || foo bar).
It might prove convenient to express the expression.
It's the same number of characters. How
Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 01:05 PM 6/11/2001 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Should perl's regexes and other character comparison bits have an
option to consider different characters for the same thing as
identical beasts? I'm thinking
of the compatibility characters for you.
NFKC will go further and do stuff like getting rid of superscripts and the
like.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
at glibc's approach is that they get tons
of bug reports about obscure things and conventions for using particular
characters that aren't obvious from the specifications.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
). If there is some similar
distinction of meaning for numbers in some language, I suppose that
Unicode may add such a thing; to date, there doesn't appear to be any
concept of uppercase or lowercase for anything but letters.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org
Bart Lateur [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 05 Jun 2001 11:07:11 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Particularly since part of his contention is that 16 bits isn't enough,
and I think all the widely used national character sets are no more
than 16 bits, aren't they?
It's not really important.
Well
, and in the other two you recompose characters as
much as possible.)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At 12:40 PM 6/5/2001 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
(As an aside, UTF-8 also is not an X-byte encoding; UTF-8 is a variable
byte encoding, with each character taking up anywhere from one to six
bytes in the encoded form depending on where in Unicode
nearly everything that was proposed back to C, Lisp,
or Generic Object-Oriented Language, if not in inspiration than at least
in fundamental similarities.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
That's probably unnecessary; I really don't expect them to ever use all
31 bytes that the IETF-standardized version of UTF-8 supports.
31 bits, rather. *sigh*
But given that, modulo some debate over CJKV, we're getting into *really*
obscure stuff
Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:27:03PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Caseless characters should be guaranteed unchanged by conversion to
upper or lower case, IMO.
I think Bryan's asking more about \p{IsUpper} than uc().
Ahh... well, Unicode classifies them
is
actually doing.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
that they've buried the idea of
keeping Unicode to 16 bits.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Larry Wall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Russ Allbery writes:
Particularly since extending UTF-8 to more than 31 bits requires
breaking some of the guarantees that UTF-8 makes, unless I'm missing
how you're encoding the first byte so as not to give it a value of
0xFE.
The UTF-16 BOMs, 0xFEFF
to make
practical ideas already explored in other practical and experimental
languages.
Perl is far more practical than experimental.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
The Right
Thing.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
of writing
some constructs. I don't believe that the list in the gcc info page of
what this turns on is actually comprehensive.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Bryan C Warnock [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
perl6-language-datetime - Originally chaired by Russ Allbery. Date
time handling. Freeze. Last post was 30 Sep.
[...]
The ones marked as 'Freeze' have a chance to be reusued later on to
convert the Apocalypses to PDDs and to fill in the gaps
by the union of the Perl knowledge of the people involved,
but the ability to maintain those scripts grows by the intersection.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Simon Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Personally, I'd rather not deal with a toke.c that knows more of
/usr/dict/words than I do.
use thesaurus;
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
in Debian
testing for a while, for that matter.)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
syntax of:
PATH=/some/long:/bunch/of:/stuff
PATH=${PATH}:/more/stuff
would really be a shame.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
-class entities rather than pointers; think
about a struct versus a pointer to a struct.
- makes you remember that things are pointers.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
David M Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 24 Apr 2001, Russ Allbery wrote:
It seems relatively unlikely in the course of normal Perl that you're
going to end up with very many references to objects.
Well, right now in Perl, an object *is* a reference.
Precisely. So there's almost never
for running those old scripts. No biggie.
There's quite a lot more Perl 5 code out there than there was Perl 4 code.
And it's rather annoying to still be maintaining a perl4 installation at
this point for the stragglers, although I suppose that can't be helped.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED
m? :)
ftp://ftp.cpan.org/CPAN/misc/lwall-quotes.txt.gz
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
, so I didn't have much additional response, apart from saying
that that was rather more Perl 5 compatibility than I was expecting.
Interesting.
Oh, and I wholeheartedly approve of the approach to handling objects.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
nst" (a la C++). I think
"pure" was proposed for the somewhat relaxed version of that that allowed
memory references but not side effects.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Russ Allbery wrote:
It looks like I was misremembering; I remember a proposal for a "pure"
attribute in gcc, but it looks like the attribute used for functions
with no memory references and no side effects is "const" (a la C
Dan Sugalski [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Doesn't have the right ring to it, unfortunately. It's not really
immutable, it just has no side-effects.
gcc and the literature both use "pure"; I'd recommend that.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
t sub are called" then life
becomes much easier.
I am strongly in favor of that approach. I see no reason to allow for
weird side effects in Perl 6. (Perl 5 would be a different matter, of
course.)
Not only is it simpler to deal with, it's simpler to *explain*, and that's
important.
--
Ru
, I can't think
of any realistic sort function where this would be a problem.)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
guaranteeing that Perl 6
would be YAPH-compatible anyway.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Uri Guttman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"RA" == Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
RA Uri Guttman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
map { $_-[0] } sort { compare($a-[1], $b-[1]) } map { [$_, f($_)] } data
^^^ ^^^
RA Then you need to
as much work anyway.
Less mental effort is the important part, not how many characters have to
be typed. I don't want to be thinking about that extra level of arrays,
and until you've written *lots* of ST's, you can't ignore it.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
and ended up
just being stupid and grating.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
So since when did perl6-language become perl-advocacy? Rephrased: Could
people please take the advocacy traffic elsewhere where it isn't noise?
Thanks.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
with schedules very well.
I think you did quite a good job; I expect the issue to come back up again
when Larry's had a chance to look over the proposals and we'll have a few
more chances to clarify and talk it through.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
ly don't want to get into.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
why Larry never
bothered before with making the AL more lawyer-proof; since he intended it
to be used in conjuction with the GPL, it didn't need to be, since the GPL
was always there as a well-understood legal license if someone needed one
for some reason.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED
o internal structural changes, is even more
complicated than that.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
r than statutory law in the United States and in some other western
countries. That means that you can't necessarily figure out everything
you need to know about software licenses just by reading relevant law; the
basis of common law is legal precedent, which isn't as conveniently
collected.
--
Russ Allbe
).
Sure, if people are aware of all of those issues and have decided that
their goals are more important to them than those drawbacks, more power to
them and they should be able to use whatever license they want.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
erlLicense
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
ers" "fanatical." If you're attempting to be
persuasive, you may want to bear in mind that I'm pretty close to refusing
to read anything else you write on any topic, and it wouldn't surprise me
if other people are starting to get similar ideas.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
list.
Watching a few of these things before, I think you'll find that RMS is
quite willing to discuss things like this with people but is not going to
change his mind unless you convince him that he's wrong, and bringing in
more people to talk about it will have absolutely no effect.
--
Russ
. Perl doesn't really have as much
in the way of political goals.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
o in-place modifications without changing the allocation, but
that sounds a lot iffier.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Python.
the TIL speedup over pure interpretation might win that back and
more.
If that's true, that's a different ballgame of course.
If at all possible, Perl 6 should be *faster* than Perl 5. Perl is
already too slow IMO.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org
both been incredibly busy, but I believe it's even still
the intention to make the traffic of the mailing lists available as
newsgroups as well (with posts receiving an autoresponse explaining the
nature of the mailing list and how to go about participating if the person
really wants to).
--
Russ
to mention that the one free software project that
does use a private list for core development, namely CVS (at least at some
points in the past), I found highly annoying. But that was much more due
to the inability to read that list than the inability to post to it.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED
s that they consider
the actual tool of the Great Enemy to be a wonderful person.
I think this is par for the course in large, high-profile open source
software projects, regrettably.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
out of pack and putting it plus those
other things into a standard module.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
his faster.
I like this idea.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
that need to do UID fiddling need to load.
I guess the exception is getpwuid($), which is probably done more than
any other operation on UIDs, but maybe just keep that single variable.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Chaim Frenkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"RA" == Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
RA This will be completely impossible to implement in some installation
RA environments, such as AFS or read-only remote NFS mounts. I really
RA don't like software that tries to play dynamic c
is grossly deficient in this respect, but that's an internals
rather than a language issue.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
agree with you are saying that only European scripts matter. But please
don't escalate the argument as part of being offended.
I'll now stop replying to this thread. Sorry for sticking my nose in; it
really bugs me when this happens in i18n discussions.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED
environments, such as AFS or read-only remote NFS mounts. I really don't
like software that tries to play dynamic compilation tricks; please just
compile at installation time and then leave it alone.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
to do this if so wished.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Glenn Linderman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Russ Allbery wrote:
Perhaps I don't use those warnings in the same way that you do. I
*very* rarely have undefined value warnings in my programs, and when I
do they're usually not actually bugs, just things that require a
different way of writing
ould have been
nice. But that's just me.
As long as it's possible to get the current "perl" behavior; I actually
use that a lot.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Ben Tilly [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think that you actually can have trademarks on the same name in
different areas as long as there is no possible confusion...
Correct, at least in the US.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
nce that's what MIT has done with Kerberos.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
ls to RFC 263, along the lines of "use tristate", seem to
overlook this sort of situation.
I'm not overlooking it; I just don't agree with you. There *is* a
difference.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
or not. As a matter of
fact, I find them very interesting and fully do expect to use those
semantics if they're implemented in Perl, particularly given that I'm
likely to be doing a lot more database and SQL coding in the future than I
am currently.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http
Glenn Linderman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Russ Allbery wrote:
I agree with Tom; I think it's pretty self-evident that they're the
same thing. undef means exactly the same thing as null; that's not the
problem. The problem is that Perl doesn't implement the tri-state
logic semantics
that they're the same
thing. undef means exactly the same thing as null; that's not the
problem. The problem is that Perl doesn't implement the tri-state logic
semantics that most users of null are used to, which is a different issue.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org
time;
it might take really minor rewording of the code (initialize to 0 instead
of undef for counters, etc.), but I'm very unconvinced that you need both
concepts active at the same time.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
*that* would be a serious bug in my
opinion. Talk about horribly confusing.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
clock in
the kernel at boot.)
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
, at least).
Hm, yeah, good point.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
it doesn't specify the size (nor should it).
The C99 way of printing out time_t *if* you're guaranteed it's an
arithmetic type is:
#include inttypes.h
time_t now;
printf(PRIdMAX "\n", (intmax_t) now);
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
with seconds since
epoch.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
and the storage size be left unspecified, from the language
perspective. On those platforms that support it, using 64 bits is
obviously a good idea.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
but I want it. :)
Now's the time to change everything, if theory has kicked out new widgets
that no one had fully analyzed back when Perl 5 started.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
. perl-based filtering programs
don't blow procmail away because procmail weighs in at a teensy fraction
of perl's pork, so there's a radical difference in sustainable email
traffic levels.
Yup.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
as complex as
the AL is.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
weight and momentum behind it than our community, as dearly as we
hold it, and we need to make sure we can protect our interests on their
ground if need be.
--
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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