Hi guys,
Just to conclude this topic: there is a nice talk between Dave Thomas
(of OTI fame where IBM VisualAge Smalltalk and nowadays VA Smalltalk
came out), James Robertson and David Buck in recent Independent
Misinterpretations:
IM 67: Have Objects Failed Us?
This note kind of ties down to this discussion.
Why does Rails , .Net : VB/ C# or Java , PHP et als succeed : Objects
vs code pattern.. ( not design pattern ).
Pattern matched copying of code to get an app constructed/
maintained/ extended.
What I mean is people learn/ work mostly by pattern
Janko Mivšek janko.miv...@eranova.si writes:
Hi guys,
Just to conclude this topic: there is a nice talk between Dave Thomas
(of OTI fame where IBM VisualAge Smalltalk and nowadays VA Smalltalk
came out), James Robertson and David Buck in recent Independent
Misinterpretations:
IM 67:
Am 27.02.2012 um 15:05 schrieb Friedrich Dominicus:
Janko Mivšek janko.miv...@eranova.si writes:
Hi guys,
Just to conclude this topic: there is a nice talk between Dave Thomas
(of OTI fame where IBM VisualAge Smalltalk and nowadays VA Smalltalk
came out), James Robertson and David Buck
On Feb 14, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Guido Stepken wrote:
Lookup Google Pharo hanging ... very few companies are really using Pharo,
but i am not the only one reporting this.
Tnx for the troll.
It is much more interesting to google
Guido Stepken Troll
Just have a look:
Hi Marcus!
Tnx for calling me a troll. Reminder:
http://http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bocked-everything-Unusable-td3669616.html
Thanks guys for the daily amusement :D
rofl
On 2012-02-15, at 12:15, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hi Marcus!
Tnx for calling me a troll. Reminder:
http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bocked-everything-Unusable-td3669616.html
several month later:
On Feb 15, 2012, at 12:35 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote:
Thanks guys for the daily amusement :D
I am now deleting his emails direcly in gmail... I would suggest everyone else
to do the same.
Marcus
--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Marcus Denker marcus.den...@inria.frwrote:
It is much more interesting to google
Guido Stepken Troll
Just have a look:
http://www.google.com/search?ls=enq=%22Guido+Stepken%22+Troll
Wow! About 1,030 results, that's pretty impressive. Should
Yes, 4-5 manyears? So, why reinventing the wheel, like with COGVM?
LLVM ist much better supported by big, big, commercial companies.
Yes, LLVM has a great track-record of easing the development of dynamic
languages.
http://qinsb.blogspot.com/2011/03/unladen-swallow-retrospective.html
Reminds me of http://www.infoq.com/interviews/foote-oop-code
On 02/11/2012 01:21 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:
Hi guys,
Again one interesting topic for this weekend to discuss. David Nolen, a
Lisp and JavaScript guy posted in his blog an article titled Illiterate
Programming [1] where he said:
On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Guido Stepken wrote:
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed memcached, hat works also as httpd
cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from
seeing any http/get request.
This is wrong. Again.
So, i am NOT surprised, that any of
On 14 Feb 2012, at 01:57, Guido Stepken wrote:
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed memcached, hat works also as httpd
cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from
seeing any http/get request.
So, i am NOT surprised, that any of those Pharoers doesn't want
I've got best connections to top 500 enterprise and deciders in germany.
Sure. :-)
I would be pleased to present them a Seaside Shop, running on Pharo,
PostgreSql or Magma behind, ready to run from within one image.
Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it
Hi guido
If it helps to insult please do this is free and cheap.
You did not even reply to a basic one: how VW compares?
None of your past emails got any verifiable information. Too bad.
Sven company is exactly using pharo as server, so this contradicts a bit your
points but the key
On 14 Feb 2012, at 09:41, Stefan Marr wrote:
While you are at it, add PHP and Ruby into your benchmarks.
You will see that the memory consumption of PHP is just outrageous.
And the speed of Ruby is legendary... to humor me, please use Ruby 1.8 and
compare it to 1.9.
Look at what people
On 14 February 2012 01:57, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed memcached, hat works also as httpd
cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from
seeing any http/get request.
So, i am NOT surprised, that any of those
Ahh, I am so upset with this thread.
It's not the content that upsets me, but the fact that my pointing out
that Pharo has a super-linear evolution went unnoticed due to all the
trolling activity.
So, let me mention it again
One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution
On 14 February 2012 12:59, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote:
Ahh, I am so upset with this thread.
It's not the content that upsets me, but the fact that my pointing out
that Pharo has a super-linear evolution went unnoticed due to all the
trolling activity.
So, let me mention it again
Ah, thanks. I feel better now :)
Doru
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
On 14 February 2012 12:59, Tudor Girba tu...@tudorgirba.com wrote:
Ahh, I am so upset with this thread.
It's not the content that upsets me, but the fact that my pointing out
that
Why you think it didn't noticed? I even spent time learning what is
'super-linear' means. :)
You're right that if taking a single individual, and his contribution
to Pharo , it is of course always linear.
I think even alone you be non-linear. And the secret is: feedback loops.
So imagine
Yuppee, I am actually happy now :)
Doru
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Marcus Denker marcus.den...@inria.fr wrote:
Why you think it didn't noticed? I even spent time learning what is
'super-linear' means. :)
You're right that if taking a single individual, and his contribution
to
Hi doru
can you explain this sentence and implications for single minded people :)
Stef
One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution super-linear,
and
we all know how poor we are at estimating such super-linear models
On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:40 PM, Marcus Denker wrote:
Improving a system allows you do do things *faster*, and even, at some point,
do things that where impossible without the improvement. (regardless how
much time and intelligence you have).
*That* is non-linear progress.
YES.
This is why
Well... this is an example of what the thread was about at the
beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I
you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm
implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a
server. Squeak
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson
hernan.wilkin...@10pines.com wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the thread was about at the
beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you
have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm
Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson
hernan.wilkin...@10pines.com wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the thread was about at the
beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you
have known a little bit about
On 14 February 2012 17:07, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson
hernan.wilkin...@10pines.com wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the thread was about at the
beginning... that is, the lack
Hi Igor!
This is not the point. Modern architectures have different goals in mind.
Projected on Pharo, it means that:
1. Make Pharo nonblocking. Remove any locking, completely.
2. Make Pharo fast. Use in situ algorithms, avoid any copying of data,
objects, whatever.
3. Make Pharo overload proof.
On 14 February 2012 18:17, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
Hi Igor!
This is not the point. Modern architectures have different goals in mind.
Projected on Pharo, it means that:
1. Make Pharo nonblocking. Remove any locking, completely.
2. Make Pharo fast. Use in situ
2012/2/14 Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com
Now seriously, do you really think that people here are not considered
all of things you listed,
and not trying to improve things in those directions?
Don't see benchmarks anywhere on Pharo Homepage, even the 1.3 Image was not
up to date for long
On 14 February 2012 19:36, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
2012/2/14 Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com
Now seriously, do you really think that people here are not considered
all of things you listed,
and not trying to improve things in those directions?
Don't see benchmarks
Get the development process developed!
Am 14.02.2012 um 20:01 schrieb Guido Stepken:
Get the development process developed!
Guido, you seem to have interest in Pharo, even if it doesn't fit your needs
today.
You also seem to have the right connections and money. What about turning
this into something positive
for you, your
Over the past three years, I have learnt that the one biggest skill all of
us have to develop is to see and gain from the positive side of everything
and everyone.
The quick poring through this chain, makes me feel there is lot we can gain
from the most blunt critics, unjust as it might feel. The
The development process of Pharo needs to be developed!
There *are* hundreds of Smalltalkers outside, *unused resources*, a few
dozen of enterprises paying *millions* of dollars each year on licensing
cost for VS, VA, GEMSTONE, *unused money for Pharo development*
Get the development process
Am 2012-02-14 um 21:25 schrieb Guido Stepken:
The development process of Pharo needs to be developed!
There *are* hundreds of Smalltalkers outside, *unused resources*, a few dozen
of enterprises paying *millions* of dollars each year on licensing cost for
VS, VA, GEMSTONE, *unused money
I must correct some notions.. the time I hope is right for that...
In India a Smalltalk developer is about 600$/Month. Fully qualified.
I am sorry to point out.. if you pay in peanuts, you will attract
monkeys..!... It costs upwards of 2500$ / mo now..! Just the remuneration
add the office costs
d o.O b
so cool tobias
I like
O_o
too.
... AFAIC it boils down to:
meh.
Michael
P.S.: Ever heard of Terminator Syndrome?
Am 14.02.2012 um 21:36 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse stephane.duca...@inria.fr:
d o.O b
so cool tobias
I like
O_o
too.
Hi all Smalltalkers!
Only cross posting to squeak and pharo (communities I know), because
this turned into a long post. But try reading it - I hope it is both fun
and perhaps interesting. :)
On 02/11/2012 01:21 PM, Janko Mivšek wrote:
Hi guys,
Again one interesting topic for this weekend
On 13 Feb 2012, at 10:23, Göran Krampe wrote:
PS. Why oh why did Pharo lose the double click on ? in the class browser to
see inheritance textually-mechanism? :)
I just tried in my 1.4 image #14329 image with the standard browser and it
works:
ProtoObject #()
Object #()
There is no question that over-use of inheritance (failure to understand
composition) is a classic beginner mistake. That said, don't underestimate the
value of inheritance. Granted, the example I have in mind is perfect for
specialization, but beyond that, failure to use (extensive)
I did analyse some of these memory pumping effects in Pharo. Come from
overuse of inheritance, that causes big objects with hundreds of methods
to be created and garbaged, just for short tasks.
Better: Composition over inheritance!!!
Second problem is the Liskov problem:
Let q(x) be a property
On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Guido Stepken wrote:
I did analyse some of these memory pumping effects in Pharo. Come from
overuse of inheritance, that causes big objects with hundreds of methods to
be created and garbaged, just for short tasks.
The number of methods do not influence *at
Ok. Then it must have been the ghost, that causes heavy memory pumping,
even under zero load, see CPU monitor.
Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple
tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or
dynamically assigned memory space.
But i
Hi,
On 13 February 2012 16:32, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
Ok. Then it must have been the ghost, that causes heavy memory pumping,
even under zero load, see CPU monitor.
... so far for the analysis. :-)
But i agree, that Smalltalk *can* be designed to run well within 1MB of
On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote:
Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple
tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or
dynamically assigned memory space.
This is ridiculous: a current stock Pharo server image (i.e.
Hi Michael,
pah. 1 MB. Sheer luxury. 64 kB RAM, 256 kB Flash: Smalltalk running on
Lego Mindstorms NXT. Questions?
Is this still being developed? Is the code available?
Nick
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no
load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Tnx 4 your funny comment!
Have fun, Guido Stepken
Am 13.02.2012 17:08 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hey Guido, I thought you said you were leaving us! Just too hard to stay
away, eh? :-)
--
Cheers,
Peter
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.comwrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving
no load for Pharo at all, serving
The code is available here:
http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/nxtalk/
Alain
On 13 févr. 12, at 17:12, Nick Ager wrote:
Hi Michael,
pah. 1 MB. Sheer luxury. 64 kB RAM, 256 kB Flash: Smalltalk running on
Lego Mindstorms NXT. Questions?
Is this still being developed? Is the
On 13 February 2012 17:53, Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be wrote:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no
load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy
Am 13.02.2012 17:53 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O,
leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do
On 13 February 2012 18:09, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
Am 13.02.2012 17:53 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving
no load for Pharo at all,
On 13 Feb 2012, at 18:09, Guido Stepken wrote:
Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html
Even dynamically growing cache memory.
No!
This page
http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo
clearly refers/links to
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_proxy_balancer.html
Am 13.02.2012 18:17 schrieb Igor Stasenko siguctua
siguc...@gmail.com@siguc...@gmail.com
gmail.com siguc...@gmail.com:
How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul
fuel cistern with it?
How fast it goes?
The answer to your issue is just one: use proper tools for
Caching now has moved into Apache core. Is still there.
Am 13.02.2012 18:51 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe s...@beta9.be:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 18:09, Guido Stepken wrote:
Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html
Even dynamically growing cache memory.
No!
This page
On 13 February 2012 18:59, Guido Stepken gstep...@googlemail.com wrote:
Am 13.02.2012 18:17 schrieb Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com:
How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul
fuel cistern with it?
How fast it goes?
The answer to your issue is just one: use proper
On 13 Feb 2012, at 19:09, Guido Stepken wrote:
Caching now has moved into Apache core. Is still there.
Facts ?? There is no such thing, you have to enable it manually:
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/caching.html
On Feb 13, 2012, at 5:38 PM, Peter Hugosson-Miller wrote:
Hey Guido, I thought you said you were leaving us! Just too hard to stay
away, eh? :-)
lol
We are addictive. Like honey for bees :)
Stef
--
Cheers,
Peter
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Guido Stepken
Course, trolls always have something extra to say :)
I thought that they were changed in stone if touched by sun light but
apparently it does not work anymore
maybe we got tricked by saroumane…
Stef
Dear Guido
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Did you try with VisualWorks?
I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :)
Look at:
http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suche/liste.html
Selecting notebooks by price,
Hi Nick,
Am 13.02.2012 um 17:12 schrieb Nick Ager nick.a...@gmail.com:
pah. 1 MB. Sheer luxury. 64 kB RAM, 256 kB Flash: Smalltalk running on
Lego Mindstorms NXT. Questions?
Is this still being developed? Is the code available?
it is dormant, but available:
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed memcached, hat works also as httpd
cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from
seeing any http/get request.
So, i am NOT surprised, that any of those Pharoers doesn't want me here ...
Pharo *is* dogsloow, Seaside nearly
Am 13.02.2012 20:25 schrieb Stéphane Ducasse
stephane.ducassestephane.duca...@inria.fr
@ stephane.duca...@inria.frinria.fr stephane.duca...@inria.fr:
Dear Guido
Hi Stef!
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Did you try with VisualWorks?
I'm pretty sure that you can use it
Hi Guido,
What has happened? I went on with pushing development of a similar shop
(see cyberport.de http://cyberport.de) and finally lost several
10.000nds of €, because Pharo/Seaside *is* much too slow for any serious
enterprise.
Can you explain a bit more about your setup? You were trying
2012/2/11 Janko Mivšek janko.miv...@eranova.si
In this case I see a wise thinking about weaknesses of OO and Smalltalk
and how to overcome it by better best practices. For instance, the
newcommers are asking where to find a guidelines for modeling OO domain
models in pure OO way. In this
Milan zdravo!
S, Milan Mimica piše:
Janko Mivšek
In this case I see a wise thinking about weaknesses of OO and Smalltalk
and how to overcome it by better best practices. For instance, the
newcommers are asking where to find a guidelines for modeling OO domain
models in
] on behalf of Janko Mivšek
[janko.miv...@eranova.si]
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 7:02 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; Squeak; 'VWNC'; GNU Smalltalk
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?
Milan zdravo!
S, Milan Mimica piše:
Janko Mivšek
In this case I see
2012/2/12 Janko Mivšek janko.miv...@eranova.si
Can you and others list some of those books and other useful resources?
Which are currently most popular, which are regarded as classical?
Maybe we can list them as recommended literature on our websites.
Martin Fowler is my favorite. But
S, Milan Mimica piše:
Can you and others list some of those books and other useful resources?
Which are currently most popular, which are regarded as classical?
Maybe we can list them as recommended literature on our websites.
Martin Fowler is my favorite. But there is a whole
Hi Janko!
Michael Perscheid at HPI showed us his nice UML addon for squeak. Its
extracting the mental model out of Smalltalk Source, drawing editable UML
diagrams, that even are able to change the source.
Reminds me to IBM Rational Rose, but much more advanced.
IMHO, this tool should be tightly
[milan.mim...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:27 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?
2012/2/12 Janko Mivšek janko.miv...@eranova.simailto:janko.miv...@eranova.si
Can you and others list some of those books and other useful
Hi guys,
Again one interesting topic for this weekend to discuss. David Nolen, a
Lisp and JavaScript guy posted in his blog an article titled Illiterate
Programming [1] where he said:
...Yet I think Smalltalk still fundamentally failed (remember this is a
programming language originally designed
Let we remember that Smalltalk was designed for a kids, so programming
is hard anyway is in my opinion just too simplified answer.
While teaching new Smalltalkers I noticed that those without any
programming experience got it faster, specially comparing to those with
a relational DB experience.
]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; Squeak; 'VWNC'; GNU Smalltalk
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?
Let we remember that Smalltalk was designed for a kids, so programming
is hard anyway is in my opinion just too simplified answer
Mivšek
[janko.miv...@eranova.si]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 1:58 PM
Cc: 'VWNC'; va-smallt...@googlegroups.com; GNU Smalltalk;
Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr; The general-purpose Squeak developers list
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?
Hi Stef,
S, stephane ducasse
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