Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Robinson On 26/01/2015 10:06, Robinson Tryon wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 6:48 AM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org wrote: On 19/01/2015 08:03, Sophie wrote: To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. That will require a revisor with en_US skills. About how much work (read: time) would this review process entail? Thanks, --R If you need to review *all* help UI, I think it maps to an equivalent of a 500 or more page handbook. -- Olivier Hallot Comunidade LibreOffice http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 4:15 PM, jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: On 27/01/15 18:36, Rimas Kudelis wrote: If you need to review *all* help UI, I think it maps to an equivalent of a 500 or more page handbook. But you don't. L10n only are only asking for review of strings when they are being changed. Review strings in context. Whoever volunteers for this task will need to go through _all_ of the existing help, UI, and other things, before reviewing strings when they are changed. So basically there's a steep learning curve, but once someone has an active knowledge of the current text, then they should be able to do work in small deltas. As long as there's clear documentation about getting up to speed (and the potential time to do so), the workflow seems plausible. The task requires: * Copy editing; * Line editing; * Proof reading; amongst other editing tasks. Yup, sounds challenging. FWIW, this also means that the l10n, a11y, and i18n teams will be dumped with a slew of changes that might, but probably won't affect their existing translation, but will still need to be verified to ensure that their translations, etc. are not broken. I keep on hearing about these big changes. Some of them sound scriptable, but have there been some that are not? Aside from the bulk-changes, how many string additions/modifications/etc.. are there on a weekly or monthly basis? BTW, does anybody know where the *current* _LibreOffice Manual of Style_ can be obtained from? Once we find it, let's add a redirect here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Manual_of_style (Or it can live there, if it doesn't have a good home yet! :-) If it's more of an official-ish document, perhaps this would be a better home: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Manual_of_style Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi again, On 2015 m. sausio 28 d. 09:09:27 EET, Rimas Kudelis r...@akl.lt wrote: On 2015 m. sausio 28 d. 08:10:38 EET, jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: BTW, when you say style guide, which specific one do you mean? The one you're looking for, assuming it exists. If not, or could be a combination of Gnome HIG and any American English style guide we (the LibO community) would deem acceptable and meeting our needs (e.g. The Chicago Manual of Style). In fact, I just thought that it doesn't even have to be a formal manual: if somebody would be willing to oversee style consistency in our strings, and that style would look acceptable by our en-US users, then why not? Especially if that person would be willing to formalize these rules into a written style manual along the way. -- Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Rimas Kudelis r...@akl.lt wrote: Hi again, On 2015 m. sausio 28 d. 09:09:27 EET, Rimas Kudelis r...@akl.lt wrote: On 2015 m. sausio 28 d. 08:10:38 EET, jonathon toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: BTW, when you say style guide, which specific one do you mean? The one you're looking for, assuming it exists. If not, or could be a combination of Gnome HIG and any American English style guide we (the LibO community) would deem acceptable and meeting our needs (e.g. The Chicago Manual of Style). In fact, I just thought that it doesn't even have to be a formal manual: if somebody would be willing to oversee style consistency in our strings, and that style would look acceptable by our en-US users, then why not? Especially if that person would be willing to formalize these rules into a written style manual along the way. -- Rimas This document may be of interest: https://obriend.fedorapeople.org/WritingStyleGuide/ It's only recently (last year) been open sourced and made public. On the Docs list, I wrote: Here is one I remember from OOo: https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Help_Style_Guide There is also a short (and somewhat out of date) writing style guide for LO user guides. It is Chapter 5 in the LO Docs Contributors Guide. See here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Development#Contributors_Guide In Docs, we mainly referred to the relevant sections of _Read Me First! A Style Guide for the Computer Industry_ by Sun Technical Publications. --Jean -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Jonathon, 2015.01.27 23:15, jonathon wrote: On 27/01/15 18:36, Rimas Kudelis wrote: If you need to review *all* help UI, I think it maps to an equivalent of a 500 or more page handbook. But you don't. L10n only are only asking for review of strings when they are being changed. Review strings in context. Whoever volunteers for this task will need to go through _all_ of the existing help, UI, and other things, before reviewing strings when they are changed. The task requires: * Copy editing; * Line editing; * Proof reading; amongst other editing tasks. FWIW, this also means that the l10n, a11y, and i18n teams will be dumped with a slew of changes that might, but probably won't affect their existing translation, but will still need to be verified to ensure that their translations, etc. are not broken. I really don't see a revision of all existing strings as a requirement to start reviewing newly added ones. Of course, it would be beneficial, but not at all a requirement. You don't need to read a 500-pages worth of text to tell whether or not a certain string is clear, concise and grammatically, syntactically and typographically correct. Especially if you are a native English speaker and have a style guide at hand. Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi Sophie, OK for me to work on master translation. On 19/01/2015 08:03, Sophie wrote: To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. That will require a revisor with en_US skills. - if there is a way to script changes, script them otherwise wait until there is a script available to commit them - any time there are heavy changes that pop up in someone's mind (like changing ... for …) discuss it with the l10n team before committing those changes. Right. The issue is raised (IMHO) because a great deal of developers are not english native speakers, as well as their focus is no C++ language rather than English. The thing is: if we can catch the modification upfront, it will make it easy for all of us. If I may also suggest, I'll ask all developers and within ESC recurrent revision, to check/review/flag for any major issues with respect to l10n. This can be implemented as One: create a meta-bug about l10n en_US string revision. Two: then on each commit that involves some form of l10n activity, the developer should open a new bug with his commit number/reference and link to the l10n meta-bug. The subject line should be L10n revision requested. Three: the same developer, if implementing or modifying a feature, should also open a similar bug with subject [LOCALHELP] feature XYZ changed/created; help page missing and link to bug 80430. Note that we don't ask to the developers to fix english mistakes nor write help pages, tasks that we can offload from them provided we get noticed. Fixing English mistakes/linguistics and writting help pages is a task the community can do continuously. Kind regards -- Olivier Hallot Comunidade LibreOffice http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 6:48 AM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org wrote: On 19/01/2015 08:03, Sophie wrote: To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. That will require a revisor with en_US skills. About how much work (read: time) would this review process entail? Thanks, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-projects] Workflow between dev, UX and l10n teams
Hi all, [Please follow-up the discussion on projects@ list to keep the history of the thread there and ease the discussion, thanks :-)] I would like to open a discussion about the way developers team, UX team and l10n team should interact and work together. There has been a heavy discussion [see this thread 1] during this round of translation. The l10n team was a bit frustrated that there were again so many changes in the en_US version that does not concern the l10n versions (like adding colon at the end or capitals in the middle of the strings). Each time, it seems part of this could be automated or a reflection on how to avoid messing the l10n work should have been introduced before those changes are committed. For example, if I decide to change FR localization to have sentence capitalization in the menu entries, none of the 100 other localizations won't and shouldn't be affected. It should be the same for en_US version or if really impossible, try to find a solution that lower the impact on all localizations. None of the l10n teams is against changing or correcting the UI of the en_US version and none is against the natural evolution of the suite. What is not bearable is when you have 100 000 changes in en_US and only a 1/3 concerns all the other languages and it is repeated over the branches. We are trying to change our workflow to work on master instead of branches. That will allow us to review the strings earlier (to leverage heavy unneeded changes if possible) and have more time to localize. But that will work only if each taking part of the changes take care of the others. To conclude, what l10n team would like to see is: - a review process of the strings before they are committed and make sure they respect the en_US standards (capitals, grammar, punctuation, typography). Maybe adding the Gnome HIG book to our pages [like 2] if not already. - if there is a way to script changes, script them otherwise wait until there is a script available to commit them - any time there are heavy changes that pop up in someone's mind (like changing ... for …) discuss it with the l10n team before committing those changes. I know it may lower the enthusiasm of some contributors, but it will regain the one of our l10n teams for sure :) [1] http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-l10n-Workflow-based-on-master-tt4131453.html#a4132459 [2] https://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/3.12/design-text-labels.html.en Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: projects+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/projects/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
