On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Nadeem Vawda nadeem.va...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Victor Stinner
victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
I suppose that most libraries and programs will have to implement a
similar fallback.
We may merge both functions with a flag to be able
On 14/03/2012 6:43 AM, VanL wrote:
Following up on conversations at PyCon, I want to bring up one of my
personal hobby horses for change in 3.3: Fix install layout on Windows,
with a side order of making the PATH work better.
Short version:
1) The layout for the python root directory for all
To quote:
On Unix, return the current processor time as a floating point number
expressed in seconds. The precision, and in fact the very definition of the
meaning of processor time, depends on that of the C function of the same
name,
The problem is that it is defined to return processor
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 04:26:16 +
Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com wrote:
Hi there.
I want to mention some issues I've had with the socketserver module, and
discuss if there's a way to make it nicer.
So, for a long time we were able to create magic stackless mixin classes for
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:55:35 +1100
Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote:
What problem are we actually trying to solve here? Do we think that there are
users who really have no clue where to find 3rd party software AND don't know
how to use Google, BUT read the Python docs? I find it
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 02:03:42 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
We may merge both functions with a flag to be able to disable the
fallback. Example:
- time.realtime(): best-effort monotonic, with a fallback
- time.realtime(monotonic=True): monotonic, may raise OSError
Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
time.monotonic(fallback=False) would be a better API.
+1
Stefan Krah
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:31:34 +0800
Matt Joiner anacro...@gmail.com wrote:
Rather than indicating apathy on the party of third party developers, this
might be a sign that core Python is unapproachable or not worth the effort.
For instance I have several one line patches languishing, I can't
Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
For instance I have several one line patches languishing, I can't imagine
how disappointing it would be to have significantly larger patches ignored,
but it happens.
Can you give a pointer to these one-liners?
Almost a one-liner, but vast
Stefan Krah wrote:
Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
For instance I have several one line patches languishing, I can't imagine
how disappointing it would be to have significantly larger patches ignored,
but it happens.
Can you give a pointer to these one-liners?
Almost a one-liner,
Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
Almost a one-liner, but vast knowledge required (how do you prove that
using (freefunc) is safe if it's the first usage in the tree?).
http://bugs.python.org/file21610/atexit-leak.patch
Well, can you please post a URL to the issue itself?
That
Hello!
In the Maximum Line Length section of PEP 8 it says:
The preferred place to break around a binary operator is *after*
the operator, not before it.
And after that is an example (trimmed here):
if (width == 0 and height == 0 and
color == 'red' and emphasis
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:21 AM, Facundo Batista
facundobati...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello!
In the Maximum Line Length section of PEP 8 it says:
The preferred place to break around a binary operator is *after*
the operator, not before it.
And after that is an example (trimmed here):
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:27:19 +0100
Victor Stinner victor.stin...@gmail.com wrote:
monotonic() may not be the best name in this case. Jeffrey Yasskin
proposed time.steady_clock(), so time.steady_clock(monotonic=False)?
I don't know what steady is supposed to mean here, so perhaps the
best
Facundo Batista facundobati...@gmail.com writes:
if (width == 0 and height == 0 and
color == 'red' and emphasis == 'strong' or
highlight 100):
raise ValueError(sorry, you lose)
In the example the line is broken after the 'and' or
As with last year, I've put together a summary of the Python Language
Summit which took place last week at PyCon 2012. This was compiled
from my notes as well as those of Eric Snow and Senthil Kumaran, and I
think we got decent coverage of what was said throughout the day.
In
view-source:http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2012-March/117586.html
van.lindberg at gmail.com posted:
1) The layout for the python root directory for all platforms should be
as follows:
stdlib = {base/userbase}/lib/python{py_version_short}
platstdlib =
On 3/13/2012 9:58 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
Given that we already repeat it, isn't it better to be consistent?
But there is no repetition currently on Windows installations.
I though you were just proposing to switch lib (lower-cased, and scripts
renamed as bin, and pythonxx). So I do not think
Hopefully it doesn't use select if no timeout is set...
--Guido van Rossum (sent from Android phone)
On Mar 14, 2012 2:08 AM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 04:26:16 +
Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com wrote:
Hi there.
I want to mention some
On 3/13/2012 9:57 PM, VanL wrote:
On Mar 13, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
The installation will end up in
c:\python33\lib\python3.3
which has the software name and version twice in the path.
Do we *really* need this?
We *already* have this. The only
On 3/14/2012 9:53 AM, Jim J. Jewett wrote:
In
view-source:http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2012-March/117586.html
van.lindberg at gmail.com posted:
1) The layout for the python root directory for all platforms should be
as follows:
stdlib =
On 3/14/2012 10:09 AM, Scott Dial wrote:
I think you are confusing two different configuration sections in
sysconfig.cfg:
[nt]
stdlib = {base}/Lib
platstdlib = {base}/Lib
purelib = {base}/Lib/site-packages
platlib = {base}/Lib/site-packages
include = {base}/Include
platinclude = {base}/Include
On 3/14/2012 11:22 AM, VanL wrote:
On 3/13/2012 9:58 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
Given that we already repeat it, isn't it better to be consistent?
But there is no repetition currently on Windows installations.
I though you were just proposing to switch lib (lower-cased, and scripts
renamed as
On 3/14/2012 10:12 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:
As with last year, I've put together a summary of the Python Language
Summit which took place last week at PyCon 2012. This was compiled
from my notes as well as those of Eric Snow and Senthil Kumaran, and I
think we got decent coverage of what was said
On 3/14/2012 1:32 AM, Mark Hammond wrote:
As per comments later in the thread, I'm -1 on including
python{py_version_short} in the lib directories for a number of
reasons; one further reason not outlined is that it would potentially
make running Python directly from a built tree difficult. For
On 3/14/2012 10:56 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
Are you talking about 'install for all users' versus 'install for this
user only'? I have always done the former as I see no point to the
latter on my machine, even if another family member has an account.
Yes, but some people are on corporate machines
I have some observations regarding this:
Victor's existing time.monotonic and time.wallclock make use of
QueryPerformanceCounter, and CLOCK_MONOTONIC_RAW as possible. Both of
these are hardware-based counters, their monotonicity is just a
convenient property of the timer sources. Furthermore,
Hello,
2012/3/13 Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org:
On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote:
Downloads don't mean the code is good. Voting is gamed. I really don't
think there's a good automated solution to tell us what the
high-quality replacement projects are.
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 5:02 AM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 04:26:16 +
Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com wrote:
Hi there.
I want to mention some issues I've had with the socketserver module, and
discuss if there's a way to make it nicer.
As pointed by Sean Reifschneider in issue 1531415, I'm writing this
mail mainly to ask for advices concerning python's makefile.
Currently, Parser/parsetok.c writes directly to stderr in case no more
memory is avaible. So, it would be nice™ to use, instead of a raw
printf, the functions provided
Can you give a pointer to these one-liners?
Once a patch gets a month old or older, it tends to disappear from
everyone's radar unless you somehow ping on the tracker, or post a
message to the mailing-list.
All of these can be verified with a few minutes of checking the
described code paths.
I have a totally different observation. Presumably the primary use
case for these timers is to measure real time intervals for the
purpose of profiling various operations. For this purpose we want them
to be as steady as possible: tick at a constant rate, don't jump
forward or backward. (And they
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:27:08 -0700
Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote:
Hopefully it doesn't use select if no timeout is set...
No, it doesn't :-)
Regards
Antoine.
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:17:06 -0400
PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
So, my first question is: Why not simply rely on the already built-in
timeout
support in the socket module?
In case you didn't notice, the built-in timeout support *also* uses
select().
That's not really
Yes, the intended use is relative timings and timeouts.
I think we are complicating things far too much.
1) Do we really need a fallback on windows? Will QPC ever fail?
2) is it a problem for the intended use if we cannot absolutely guarantee that
time won't ever tick backwards?
IMHO, we
2012/3/13 Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com:
I want to mention some issues I‘ve had with the socketserver module, and
discuss if there‘s a way to make it nicer.
So, for a long time we were able to create magic stackless mixin classes for
it, like ThreadingMixIn, and assuming we had
A summary of the discussion so far, as I've understood it:
- We should have *one* monotonic/steady timer function, using the
sources described in Victor's original post.
- By default, it should fall back to time.time if a better source is
not available, but there should be a flag that can
On Thu, 15 Mar 2012 00:26:09 +0800
Matt Joiner anacro...@gmail.com wrote:
Can you give a pointer to these one-liners?
Once a patch gets a month old or older, it tends to disappear from
everyone's radar unless you somehow ping on the tracker, or post a
message to the mailing-list.
All of
On 3/14/2012 6:05 AM, Mark Shannon wrote:
But how do you find issues?
It takes some practice. Since you patched core component dict, I tried
All text: dict and Components: Interpreter Core. (Leave default Status:
open as is.) 51 issues. Add Keyword: needs review. 0 issues. Whoops,
seems
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.netwrote:
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:17:06 -0400
PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
That's not really the point; the frameworks that implement nonblocking
I/O
by replacing the socket module (and Stackless is only one of many)
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 12:22 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote:
I have a totally different observation. Presumably the primary use
case for these timers is to measure real time intervals for the
purpose of profiling various operations. For this purpose we want them
to be as steady
- By default, it should fall back to time.time if a better source is
not available, but there should be a flag that can disable this
fallback for users who really *need* a monotonic/steady time source.
As pointed out on a different thread, you dont need this flag since the code
can easily
I don't really think the ability to create magic stackless mixin classes
should be a driving principle for the stdlib.
I would suggest using a proper non-blocking framework such as Twisted.
There is a lot of code out there that uses SocketServer. It was originally
designed to be easily
FWIW the name is quite important, because these kind of timings are
quite important so I think it's worth the effort.
- By default, it should fall back to time.time if a better source is
not available, but there should be a flag that can disable this
fallback for users who really *need* a
+1 for steady().
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Matt Joiner anacro...@gmail.com wrote:
FWIW the name is quite important, because these kind of timings are
quite important so I think it's worth the effort.
- By default, it should fall back to time.time if a better source is
not available,
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:59:47 +
Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com wrote:
It just seems odd to me that it was designed to use the select api to do
timeouts, where timeouts are already part of the socket protocol and can be
implemented more
efficiently there.
How is it more
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Guido van Rossum gu...@python.org wrote:
+1 for steady().
+1
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On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:16, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote:
That's a rather awful name. time.time() is *the* real time.
time.monotonic(fallback=False) would be a better API.
I think calling the function monotonic isn't really a good name if
it's not always monotonic.
On 3/14/2012 12:10 PM, VanL wrote:
On 3/14/2012 10:56 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
Are you talking about 'install for all users' versus 'install for this
user only'? I have always done the former as I see no point to the
latter on my machine, even if another family member has an account.
Yes, but
In http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2012-March/117617.html
van.lindberg at gmail.com posted:
As noted earlier in the thread, I also change my proposal to maintain
the existing differences between system installs and user installs.
[Wanted lower case, which should be irrelevant;
2012/3/14 Kristján Valur Jónsson krist...@ccpgames.com:
- By default, it should fall back to time.time if a better source is
not available, but there should be a flag that can disable this
fallback for users who really *need* a monotonic/steady time source.
As pointed out on a different
A different implementation, (e.g. one using windows IOCP), can do timeouts
without using select (and must, select does not work with IOCP). So will a
gevent based implementation, it will timeout the accept on each socket
individually, not by calling select on each of them.
The reason I'm
I also can live with steady, with strict for the flag.
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On 14.03.2012 15:12, Brian Curtin wrote:
As with last year, I've put together a summary of the Python Language
Summit which took place last week at PyCon 2012. This was compiled
from my notes as well as those of Eric Snow and Senthil Kumaran, and I
think we got decent coverage of what was said
On 3/14/2012 8:57 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/14/2012 10:12 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:
As with last year, I've put together a summary of the Python Language
Summit which took place last week at PyCon 2012. This was compiled
from my notes as well as those of Eric Snow and Senthil Kumaran, and I
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 13:52, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:
Thanks for the comprehensive report (I'm still reading). May I request
for the future that you also paste a copy in the email to the group, for
purposes of archiving and ease of discussing? (Just like we also post
PEPs to
On 14.03.2012 20:25, michael.foord wrote:
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/2fda048ee32a
changeset: 75632:2fda048ee32a
user:Michael Foordmich...@voidspace.org.uk
date:Wed Mar 14 12:24:34 2012 -0700
summary:
PEP 417: Adding unittest.mock
files:
Lib/unittest/mock.py
Yes, setting a timeout and leaving it that way is not the same. But setting
the timeout for _accept only_ is the same except one approach requires the
check of a bool return, the other the handling of a socket.timeout exeption.
My point is, if sockets already have nice and well defined timeout
Wiadomość napisana przez Georg Brandl w dniu 14 mar 2012, o godz. 12:33:
On 14.03.2012 20:25, michael.foord wrote:
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/2fda048ee32a
changeset: 75632:2fda048ee32a
user:Michael Foordmich...@voidspace.org.uk
date:Wed Mar 14 12:24:34 2012 -0700
On 3/14/2012 3:25 PM, michael.foord wrote:
+# mock.py
+# Test tools for mocking and patching.
Should there be a note here about restrictions on editing this file?
I notice that there are things like
+class OldStyleClass:
+pass
+ClassType = type(OldStyleClass)
which are only present
On 14 Mar 2012, at 13:08, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/14/2012 3:25 PM, michael.foord wrote:
+# mock.py
+# Test tools for mocking and patching.
Should there be a note here about restrictions on editing this file?
I notice that there are things like
+class OldStyleClass:
+pass
On 14 Mar 2012, at 12:33, Georg Brandl wrote:
On 14.03.2012 20:25, michael.foord wrote:
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/2fda048ee32a
changeset: 75632:2fda048ee32a
user:Michael Foordmich...@voidspace.org.uk
date:Wed Mar 14 12:24:34 2012 -0700
summary:
PEP 417: Adding
2012/3/14 Michael Foord fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk:
On the topic of docs mock documentation is about eight pages long. My
intention was to strip this down to just the api documentation, along with a
link to the docs on my site for further examples and so on. I was encouraged
here at the
On 3/14/2012 4:22 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
On 14 Mar 2012, at 13:08, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/14/2012 3:25 PM, michael.foord wrote:
+# mock.py +# Test tools for mocking and patching.
Should there be a note here about restrictions on editing this
file? I notice that there are things like
On 14.03.2012 21:46, andrew.svetlov wrote:
diff --git a/Lib/idlelib/rpc.py b/Lib/idlelib/rpc.py
--- a/Lib/idlelib/rpc.py
+++ b/Lib/idlelib/rpc.py
@@ -196,8 +196,12 @@
return (ERROR, Unsupported message type: %s % how)
except SystemExit:
raise
+
+1 for time.steady(strict=False).
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Kristján Valur Jónsson
krist...@ccpgames.com wrote:
- By default, it should fall back to time.time if a better source is
not available, but there should be a flag that can disable this
fallback for users who really *need* a
On 14 Mar 2012, at 13:46, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/14/2012 4:22 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
On 14 Mar 2012, at 13:08, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/14/2012 3:25 PM, michael.foord wrote:
+# mock.py +# Test tools for mocking and patching.
Should there be a note here about restrictions on editing
On 3/14/2012 5:39 PM, Mark Hammond wrote:
Can you offer any examples of 3rd party tools which could unify code in
this scheme, and particularly, where this scheme would cause them to
have less code, not more?
How about virtualenv:
def path_locations(home_dir):
Return the path locations for
[resending - original reply went only to Van]
On 15/03/2012 10:15 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote:
On 3/14/2012 5:39 PM, Mark Hammond wrote:
Can you offer any examples of 3rd party tools which could unify code
in this scheme, and particularly, where this scheme would cause them
to have less code,
On Mar 13, 2012, at 5:27 PM, Kristján Valur Jónsson wrote:
Hi,
I´m interested in contributing a patch to duplicate sockets between processes
on windows.
Tha api to do this is WSADuplicateSocket/WSASocket(), as already used by
dup() in the _socketmodule.c
Here´s what I have:
Just in case
What does jumping forward mean? That's what happens with every clock at
every time quantum. The only effect here is that this clock will be slightly
noisy, i.e. its precision becomes worse. On average it is still correct. Look
at the use cases for this function
1) to enable timeouts for
On 14/03/2012 00:57, Victor Stinner wrote:
I added two functions to the time module in Python 3.3: wallclock()
and monotonic(). (...)
I merged the two functions into one function: time.steady(strict=False).
time.steady() should be monotonic most of the time, but may use a fallback.
Great. I was about to write unittests for my patch, when I found out that I
wanted to use multiprocessing to run them.
So, I decided that the tests rather belonged in there rather than
test_socket.py. This is where I stumbled upon code that multiprocessing uses
to transfer sockets for unix.
Fyi:
http://bugs.python.org/issue14307
-Original Message-
From: python-dev-bounces+kristjan=ccpgames@python.org
[mailto:python-dev-bounces+kristjan=ccpgames@python.org] On Behalf Of
Kristján Valur Jónsson
Sent: 14. mars 2012 12:36
To: Guido van Rossum
Cc: Antoine Pitrou;
I merged the two functions into one function: time.steady(strict=False).
I opened the issue #14309 to deprecate time.clock():
http://bugs.python.org/issue14309
time.clock() is a different clock type depending on the OS (Windows vs
UNIX) and so is confusing. You should now decide between
Fyi:
http://bugs.python.org/issue14310
-Original Message-
From: python-dev-bounces+kristjan=ccpgames@python.org
[mailto:python-dev-bounces+kristjan=ccpgames@python.org] On Behalf Of
Michael Foord
Sent: 14. mars 2012 14:42
To: Terry Reedy
Cc: python-dev@python.org
Subject: Re:
Victor, I think that steady can always be monotonic, there are time sources
enough to ensure this on the platforms I am aware of. Strict in this sense
refers to not being adjusted forward, i.e. CLOCK_MONOTONIC vs
CLOCK_MONOTONIC_RAW.
Non monotonicity of this call should be considered a bug.
After a few comments and corrections, including one to post the report
directly here...what follows below is the text of what was updated on
the previously linked blog post[0].
Much of the changes were to add more detail from a few people. One
correction lies in the importlib discussion, in that
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 02:58, Matt Joiner anacro...@gmail.com wrote:
Victor, I think that steady can always be monotonic, there are time sources
enough to ensure this on the platforms I am aware of. Strict in this sense
refers to not being adjusted forward, i.e. CLOCK_MONOTONIC vs
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