escaped me?
> >
>
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-/ but maybe one more big
report / feature request.
And it’s one more pro for GH discussions- GH is built for code, so much
more likely to support it well.
Coincidentally, I just noticed GH discussions today — the setuptools
project is using it.
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OT:
Does anyone else find it very odd to call a communication system “discord”?
dis·cord
/ˈdiskôrd/
*noun*
1. 1.
disagreement between people.
"a prosperous family who showed no signs of discord"
“Naming things is hard” — but really?
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erms of what is returned by the equivalent statement. I really don't to
> try and teach that distinction to a newcomer.
>
Frankly, there are already an overwhelming-to-a-newcomer number of ways to
import modules. We really don't want nore!
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s list (and
python-ideas) should probably be retired, or turned into an
announcement-only list -- having the current split is the worst option of
all.
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API (i.e. preserves order). If
someone needs an implementation that has specific performance
characteristics that are different, and doesn't need key order
preservation, then THAT can be a special case. Which, IIUC, is what the
current HAMT in cPython is about.
Anyway, it would be nice for someone
mplementation.
And it seems that's an API that is already clearly defined.
+ 1 from me -- just the other day I was wishing it was there.
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ect, but
if someone wants to, I think it would be a great idea.
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hort: I think I agree with most folks here that we should still include
the batteries, and they should be updated / maintained to some extent. What
exactly could/should be done is going to have to be worked on on a case by
case basis.
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f those. (but yes, that's a lot of work that
someone(s) would have to do)
Back to the topic at hand, rather than remove urllib, maybe it could be
made better -- an as-easy-to-use-as-requests package in the stdlib would be
really great.
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Oops, didn’t notice this wasn’t Python-ideas — that’s where it should be.
-CHB
On Sun, Mar 13, 2022 at 3:44 PM Christopher Barker
wrote:
>
> Possible solution:
>> s = {} # new empty set
>> d = {:} # new empty dictionary (the ":" is a reference to key-value pai
pelling here. set() is (maybe?) the only builtin, but is
initializing and empty set that common?
Note, there was a recent thread on this list about a literal for frozenset
— I think:
f{} was proposed— you may want to revive that -and add s{} for an empty set
…
Though i personally wouldn’t support t
le shold be able to keep up with all but the very latest.
> make Python less attractive and less useful for beginners.
On this point, I'm not so sure -- the first thing I do for beginners is to
point them to requests, as it's easier to use :-) -- but see my point
above, that's why it would be good
e main platform that this was an issue for, for computationally
heavy code, was Cray -- but it seems they're 754 compatible now, yes?
Thanks for doing this,
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tion? or computing the mandelbrot set,
for which I would expect to see performance numbers like that.
Anyway, really cool in any case -- a major step for PyPy.
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rge-like auto-build system is
inherently easier for conda packages than binary wheels.
Which doesn't mean it couldn't be done -- just that the challenge of third
party libs would need to be addressed.
In any case, someone would have to do the work, as usual.
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p to make it easy to set - e.g a flag to cythonize or
something.
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On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 3:22 PM Greg Ewing
wrote:
> On 2/02/22 11:53 am, Christopher Barker wrote:
> > As a long time Cython user, but not a Cython developer, I think (2) is
> > the primary purpose, with (1) as a handy side benefit (otherwise
> > we'd just use ctypes, yes?)
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Which is pretty easy to do with pytest, but maybe not so easy
everywhere?
> But we shouldn't just
> dismiss warnings in those dependencies as "warnings I don't care about"
> and ignore them as Not My Problem.
>
Unless we have done due diligence already :-)
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ilence the ones I
don't want.
And it does prompt me to make sure that the upstream packages are working
on it.
Now we just need to get more people to use pytest :-)
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- Deskto
uld) define a type that only
requires the methods that you need. I think MyPy's Protocol can be used for
that, for example.
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read.
>
>
> > If I
> > had stumbled on it at 3.16 with samples, tutorials, and books all
> infused
> > with typing clutter (which *looks* like boiler-plate even if it isn't) I
> > wouldn't have given it a second glance.
>
> And again, I hear you. I too wish people w
ifferent.
But in the end, if they are not going to be pre-processed, anon only
allowed in annotations, then yes, no nead for the t"" at all.
I think the first question is whether a typing language is a good idea at
all -- then we can worry about these details.
This is not the case with
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>
> "I find this unnecessary and unreadable.
>
> Python isn't C or Java." - BundleOfJoysticks (Reddit)
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note: I wasn't thinking -- typeshed, of course, has a lot more than the
standard lib. But it's still a collection of widely used somewhat general
purpose libraries. So I think my hypothesis is still valid.
-CHB
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 8:54 PM Christopher Barker
wrote:
> A question that c
production code bases
could provide anecdotal evidence.
Anyway, if my hypothesis is correct, then it's not so bad that not-so-nice
syntax is required to type hint general purpose utilities.
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back on python-ideas
about extending the __getitem__ protocol, partly motivated by type hints.
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ing
something different. Still to be discovered what that is.
Note the OP: make sure that it's not as simple as a change to the default
for the threads parameter.
Note2: even if this is a regression cPython itself, I suspect the numpy
list may be a better wey to get it figured out.
-CHB
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ount(None))"
4110
and a newly started iPython session:
In [2]: sys.getrefcount(None)
Out[2]: 28491
It does seem a bit silly to actually be tracking that refcount :-)
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to:
class Foo:
def __init__(self, a=0):
self.a = a
Which behaves the same way when used the same way with Enum.
So why should dataclasses be special in this particular way?
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> Cod
till, maybe you have inadvertently listed everything that is agreed about
> typing PEPs.
> Rob Cliffe
>
> On 02/12/2021 23:20, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
>
> >for library authors.
>
>> Providing high quality stubs and the best user experience is not easy.
>&g
resent -- damn iPhone!
On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 3:20 PM Christopher Barker
wrote:
> >for library authors.
> >
> > Providing high quality stubs and the best user experience is not easy.
> > But I believe that referring people to typeshed can help.
>
>
> This is a
o play
well together.
While Union[PathLike, str] is a pretty light lift, this is one tiny example
of what we "typing skeptics" are concerned about: a transition away from
full on dynamic typing to a more static style.
Maybe that won't come to pass -- we'll see.
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bligation to provide any feature asked for, but a
well-managed project will encourage useful contributions from users.
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ry way -- e.g. duck typing, baby!
Is there really no way to annotate that simply now?
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ping who
> insist that everything should be annotated.
>
well, we got folks wanting to change PEP 8 becuase they don't want their
linter to complain -- so it will be a battle.
> (Have you run into VS Code yet? It gets tremendous value from typing
> stubs, in the form of improved auto-comple
Another concern I have is the over specification of types.
I have seen many examples of, e.g.
func(x: int, y: float, stuff: List(int]):
but very few of:
func(x: SupportsInt, y: SupportsFloat, stuff: Sequence[SupportsInt]):
(or even Iterable[int])
Is that even the right thing to do to get
ion of PEP 563's impact, but it's not totally clear to me if
it's been resolved.
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ctive role in developing static typing has influenced how it's being
perceived.
I do think this is a topic for the community to grapple with, but not
really a Python-dev responsibility.
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On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:47 PM Jim J. Jewett wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > Maybe PEP 563 could include a decorator in the typing module to
> > destringify all the annotations in a class or function?
>
> If it were in an annotations module, that would probably be sufficient.
>
> If it is
icted.
In fact, other than the basic core types, you need to use specialized types
with this system anyway.
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ht in a phone)
Maybe inspect.get_annotations() does, or will be able to, solve many of
these issues.
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e typing -- so it can no longer be completely ignored.
But dunders are the property of the language (or sometimes the
> implementation), and they always have been. If you use them in a way
> that's not documented to work, you're at risk even if it happens to
> work now. PEP 3107 didn't documen
tly, being an interface to
> typing enthusiasts
Again -- is it only "typing enthusiasts" that you want to engage? Or "users
of annotations"? -- maybe it is, but it would be nice if that was a clear
statement from the SC.
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thing
about it is that it provided both translation ala 2to3 and
compatibility ala six.
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o NFC only have any hope of
being accepted?
and/or adding normaliztion to setattr() and maybe other places where names
are set in code?
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ot;\N{LATIN
> CAPITAL LETTER P}".
>
Is it possible to only capture things like the combining characters and not
the "equivalent" ones like the above?
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o need updates
and re-releases. I don't think anyone's suggesting that you do a release
only to remove deprecations.
For the example above -- if ALL you are doing is moving from running on
Python 3.5 to running on a newer version, wouldn't that $5k cost have to be
absorbed anyway?
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>
>
>
>
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Deprecated code does normally more or less work, and often
> it never gets close to dangerous behavior. On the flip side, it often
> can cause dangerous behavior,
I’m confused — did you mean “sometimes cause dangerous behavior”? That’s
pretty rare isn’t it?
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s no better reason than that, the change never should
have been made. But once made, keeping multiple names around forever is not
a good option.
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On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 11:05 PM Paul Bryan wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 09, 2021 at 10:01:35PM -0800, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
> What are use cases for sorted dicts?
>
>
Good question :-)
It could be handy for deterministic iteration of its values, for example to
> allow
Neither
> would treap.
>
>
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>>
>> P.S. I suppose I should have cc'd Sam when I first replied to this
>> thread, but I'm doing so now. I figured my mistake would reveal itself
>> early on. Sam, here's my first post about my little "project."
>> https://mail.python.org/archi
s example from his seminal talk:
>
> https://youtu.be/ph374fJqFPE
>
Thanks, I'll take a look when I get a chance
That may not be the best source of the talk -- just the one I found first
:-)
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s that they want those uses to
continue to be supported.
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P
would be to get a NameError at module load time, like we do
now. Second would be a NameError as soon as it is accessed. Getting a
special value is OK though, now that I'm thinking about it, I could
probably put that special case code in one place, and provide a nice error
message.
-CHB
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w many third party libs. So that may not be
practical.
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> Code of Con
s what bytes
are targeted for. Anyone doing that should know what they are doing :-)
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Thanks all.
The PR is in process, and I believe it includes everything brought up here.
If you have any more thoughts, please post them there.
-CHB
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:54 AM Petr Viktorin wrote:
> On 26. 08. 21 9:54, Marc-Andre Lemburg wrote:
> > On 26.08.2021 06:07, Christoph
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- Teachin
Variables" and "Designing for
Inheritance", the discussion of name mangling (leading __ names) is a bit
redundant. Nothing incorrect or misleading -- just a copy-editing issue.
Maybe I'll do a copy-editing PR
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s with a global audience are encouraged to adopt a
similar policy.
"""
But maybe we do want to keep comments, docstrings and literals as ASCII
with escapes?
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ke the paragraph that
> links to reference [6].
>
will do -- hopefully I'll find some time for this tomorrow.
-CHB
> On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 9:42 PM Christopher Barker
> wrote:
>
>> I just noticed that PEP 8 has quite a few references to Python 2. Perhaps
>> it's t
late for PEP 8 for those code bases anyway.
If I make a PR, will it be considered?
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I say it's not horrible, because bytes is a Sequence of bytes (or integer
values between 0 and 255), initializing it with an iterable seems pretty
reasonable, that's how we initialize most (all?) other sequences after all.
And compatible with array.array and numpy arrays.
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d maintainers,
-CHB
PS: All that being said, we, as a community, could do better. For instance,
someone like me could do high-level triage on bug reports -- I need to set
aside some time to do that.
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> By contrast, requiring a github account for reporting bugs also makes
> python an unwelcoming place for non-developers in general. Github is a
> developers' social network, "mere" users are much less likely to want to
> be part of it. Many will just silently abandon their bug report.
But you
Thanks Tal for writing this up.
A couple comments:
1) “Add a single new sentinel value, e.g. MISSING or Sentinel” (under
rejected)
I was one of the proponent of that -- but not as an alternative to having a
stadardars way to create unique sentinels, but as an addition. That's kind
of orthogonal
faster isn't a worthy goal.
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Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GUI and Web Development
- wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
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t recent call last): ...
> TypeError: dataclasses.MISSING is a sentinel and cannot be instantiated
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> - Tal
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I suggest we keep it really simple, and name the implementation.
Building on Steve Holden’s suggestion:
There is broad interest in improving the performance of the cPython
runtime. (Interpreter?)
-CHB
--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific
> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GUI and Web Development
- wxPython, numpy, scipy, Cython
___
P
her of the behavioral constraints that are
> required to quack like a sequence.
>
I'm not sure of the definition of "nominal" typing -- but it absolutely is
NOT duck typing (As Luciano pointed out, Alex Martelli coined the term
Goose Typing for this).
The big distinction is wh
importance.
Require only a small manageable update for group 2 -- important, but a
smaller group of folks that would actually have to change code.
(hmm.. maybe not -- not many people write libraries like Pydantic, but all
the users of those libraries would need to update their type annotatio
ut[22]: {'x': int, 'y': int}
Then the only thing that would change with PEP 563 is the default behaviour.
If I'm not mistaken, the complexity (and performance hit) of dealing with
the whole could be string, could be object, evaluate the string process
would be in the type checkers, where performance i
:
>
Indeed -- that is the title of this thread, after all :-)
And see others' notes, there seems to be two other places in the stdlib
that will be affected.
-CHB
--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GU
aclasses.
Though *maybe* that could be addressed with a dataclasses update -- again,
I've only started to think about it -- there was some discussion of that in
the BPO, though Eric didn't seem particularly interested.
-CHB
--
Christopher Barker, PhD (Chris)
Python Language Consulting
- Tea
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