On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 3:37 AM, Eli Bendersky eli...@gmail.com wrote:
Just be careful not to reproduce http://www.apress.com/9781590593714 :-)
These things tend to get out of hand very quickly.
At the level Glyph and Martin are talking about, you're more likely to
end up with
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Glyph Lefkowitz gl...@twistedmatrix.com wrote:
how is UDP different from TCP?
The phrase UDP never appears in the HOWTO. DGRAM sockets get a brief
mention as anything else in the sentence: ... you’ll get better behavior
and performance from a STREAM socket
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Eli Bendersky eli...@gmail.com wrote:
Just be careful not to reproduce http://www.apress.com/9781590593714 :-)
These things tend to get out of hand very quickly.
You say that like it's a bad thing. The first few chapters of that
would make a great replacement
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 21:07, geremy condra debat...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Eli Bendersky eli...@gmail.com wrote:
Just be careful not to reproduce http://www.apress.com/9781590593714 :-)
These things tend to get out of hand very quickly.
You say that like it's
Wiadomość napisana przez C McL w dniu 2011-06-07, o godz. 00:15:
I cannot even remember ever visiting the wiki.
FWIW neither can I. The Wiki link on the front page is below Jobs and
Merchandise so it's easy to miss it altogether ;-)
--
Best regards,
Łukasz Langa
Senior Systems Architecture
On Jun 5, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
And that's all fine. I still claim that you have to *understand*
sockets in order to use it properly. By this, I mean stuff like
what is a TCP connection? how is it established?, how is UDP
different from TCP?, when data arrives, what layers
snip
Yes, these are all excellent concepts to be familiar with. But the word
socket (and the socket HOWTO) refers to a specific way to interface with
those concepts, the Berkeley socket API:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_sockets. Which you don't have to
know anything about if you're
On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 00:22:11 +0200
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
I'm not sure why the examples are good (for example, modern client
code should probably use create_connection() with a host name, not
connect()).
I disagree. create_connection is an advanced function - you
exar...@twistedmatrix.com writes:
However, does that really have anything to do with improving the socket
howto?
Thank you!
The Python documentation can include a clear explanation of what
functionality the socket module provides - without forcing you to read
Stevens _or_ use
Antoine Pitrou writes:
Did you run a user survey?
Martin undoubtedly has a lot of experience with users, and it's quite
reasonable for him to express his opinions based on that informal
sample, yes.
The issue here is the difference between existential and universal
quantifiers. Martin's
Le lundi 06 juin 2011 à 17:01 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
You might question whether the same document should serve both the
cargo cult the examples group and the read the fine print group.
That's a valid question, but here my feeling is that the answer is
yes.
So did you read the
Did you run a user survey?
Martin undoubtedly has a lot of experience with users, and it's quite
reasonable for him to express his opinions based on that informal
sample, yes.
In particular, this is collected experience from interaction with
students learning Python, or other languages.
Am 06.06.2011 10:11, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
Le lundi 06 juin 2011 à 17:01 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
You might question whether the same document should serve both the
cargo cult the examples group and the read the fine print group.
That's a valid question, but here my feeling is
On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:33:14 +0200
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
Am 06.06.2011 10:11, schrieb Antoine Pitrou:
Le lundi 06 juin 2011 à 17:01 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
You might question whether the same document should serve both the
cargo cult the examples group and
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:33:14 +0200
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
[...]
How can you make such claims when several people have indicated that
the howto *actually* helped them?
The point here is that the examples in that document are very poor
(the only
Antoine Pitrou writes:
So did you read the discussion before posting?
Yes. It's rude to assume that those who disagree with you are
irresponsible and uninformed. Would you please stop it?
The sockets HOWTO *doesn't* serve both groups.
Actually, I would argue that it serves neither of
Le lundi 06 juin 2011 à 22:59 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
Antoine Pitrou writes:
So did you read the discussion before posting?
Yes. It's rude to assume that those who disagree with you are
irresponsible and uninformed. Would you please stop it?
The sockets HOWTO
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 22:59:04 +0900
From: step...@xemacs.org
To: solip...@pitrou.net
CC: python-dev@python.org
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] The socket HOWTO
I know that is your opinion, because I've read your posts. I
disagree. The document is imperfect, but for me it served a certain
-1. I think there should be a Python-oriented introduction to sockets.
You may have complaints about the specific wording of the text, but
please understand that these are probably irrelevant to most
first-time readers of this text. My observation is that people actually
don't read the text
On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 08:32:38 +0200
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
-1. I think there should be a Python-oriented introduction to sockets.
You may have complaints about the specific wording of the text, but
please understand that these are probably irrelevant to most
first-time
On Jun 4, 2011, at 11:32 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
b) telling people to use Twisted or asyncore on the server side
if they are new to sockets is bad advice. People *first* have
to understand sockets, and *then* can use these libraries
and frameworks. Those libraries aren't made to be
HOWTO needs to cover sockets. That's what a person expects
to learn when they click on the Socket HOWTO link.
Raymond
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I'm not sure why the examples are good (for example, modern client
code should probably use create_connection() with a host name, not
connect()).
I disagree. create_connection is an advanced function - you shouldn't
be using it unless you know what it is doing.
Can you explain? I would
First, Twisted doesn't always use the BSD sockets API; the Windows IOCP
reactor, especially, starts off with the socket() function, but things
go off in a different direction pretty quickly from there.
Hmm. Are you saying it doesn't use listen, connect, bind, send, recv?
To me, that's the core
On 5 Jun, 10:35 pm, mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
First, Twisted doesn't always use the BSD sockets API; the Windows
IOCP
reactor, especially, starts off with the socket() function, but things
go off in a different direction pretty quickly from there.
Hmm. Are you saying it doesn't use listen,
Hello,
On Sun, 29 May 2011 17:20:29 +0200
Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de wrote:
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
-1. I think there should be a Python-oriented introduction to sockets.
You may have
Antoine Pitrou:
So what you're saying is that the text is mostly useless (or at least
quite dispensable), but you think it's fine that people waste their
time trying to read it?
I found it useful when starting to write socket code. Later on I
learnt more but, as an introduction, this
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:
On 05/21/11 18:01, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
So a rewrite with good pointers would be more appropriate.
Even then, it's better off in the Wiki until
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
-1. I think there should be a Python-oriented introduction to sockets.
You may have complaints about the specific wording of the text, but
please understand that these are
On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 3:38 AM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:
On 05/21/11 18:01, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
So a rewrite with good pointers would be more appropriate.
Even then, it's better off in the Wiki until the rewrite is complete.
Perhaps replacing it with a placeholder page that
Hello,
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
My main issue with this document is that it doesn't seem to have
a well-defined destination:
- people who know sockets won't learn anything from it
- but people who don't
On 05/21/11 17:07, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Hello,
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
+1, or a big rewrite.
Georg
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I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
My main issue with this document is that it doesn't seem to have
a well-defined destination:
- people who know sockets won't learn anything from it
- but people who don't
On Sat, 2011-05-21 at 17:07 +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
Hello,
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
My main issue with this document is that it doesn't seem to have
a well-defined destination:
- people who
On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 05:37:05PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
+1, or a big rewrite.
I favor a rewrite over removal. I have read it once/twice and have
never revisited
On 05/21/11 18:01, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 05:37:05PM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote:
I would like to suggest that we remove the socket HOWTO (currently at
http://docs.python.org/dev/howto/sockets.html)
+1, or a big rewrite.
I favor a rewrite over removal. I have
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