On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:56:20 +1000, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com
wrote:
The words eggs brings with it a whole lot more baggage than just the
sum of the technical parts in the language core that support them
(primarily distutils and zipimport).
Well, in this case, (talking metaphorically)
David Lyon wrote:
There's an awful lot to take in, and there must be 20,000 lines of
emails for every 1 line of python code that is required to fix this
thing.
Yep, which goes way back to one of my first emails in this thread:
compared to the social aspects, the technical aspects of packaging
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 2:36 AM, David Lyondavid.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:56:20 +1000, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com
wrote:
The words eggs brings with it a whole lot more baggage than just the
sum of the technical parts in the language core that support them
Jesse Noller jnoller at gmail.com writes:
I really do think this mail thread needs to move to disutils-sig or
python-ideas.
+1
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On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:55:11 +0200, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de
wrote:
Yes, eggs have the same problem. That's one of the reasons they
don't get integrated into Python.
Yes but egg_info is included in python...
and the egg is not
Hence, what goes in and what doesn't isn't always
2009/7/28 David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:55:11 +0200, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de
wrote:
Yes, eggs have the same problem. That's one of the reasons they
don't get integrated into Python.
Yes but egg_info is included in python...
and the egg is not
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:50:00 +0100, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
egg_info data is in to allow standard (setup.py install and hence OS
package manager managed) packages to provide metadata in a
discoverable way. Using a format that is (reasonably) compatible with
setuptools is simply a
2009/7/28 David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net:
ok - I get it.
[...]
Your whole email whilst perphaps technically correct is terribly
difficult for a software engineering person to follow.
OK, I'm sorry if my attempts to help you didn't do so.
Let me go away confused... don't ask me any
David Lyon wrote:
Your whole email whilst perphaps technically correct is terribly
difficult for a software engineering person to follow.
It made perfect sense to me.
The words eggs brings with it a whole lot more baggage than just the
sum of the technical parts in the language core that
Nick Coghlan wrote:
David Lyon wrote:
Your whole email whilst perphaps technically correct is terribly
difficult for a software engineering person to follow.
It made perfect sense to me.
Like David, I found it a bit disjointed too.
The words eggs brings with it a whole lot more baggage
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:18:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull
step...@xemacs.org wrote:
[1] on
my part) and sysadmin goals (something that works and plays nicely
with the rest of the system).
pythonpkgmgr seems entirely oblivious to the latter issue, and not
particularly compatible with the way
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:23:59 +0100, Michael Foord
fuzzy...@voidspace.org.uk wrote:
It would be great to have a decent visual package manager for Python.
Hopefully one day we'll have one - haha
It needs to be built on top of the work that Tarek is doing with
distutils (and be compatible
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 7:20 PM, David Lyondavid.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
My only point is that Windows ain't no embedded system. It's not
short on memory or disk space. If a package manager is 5 megabytes
extra say, with it's libraries.. what's the extra download time on
that ? compared to
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 19:29:14 +0900, David Cournapeau courn...@gmail.com
wrote:
My only point is that Windows ain't no embedded system. It's not
short on memory or disk space. If a package manager is 5 megabytes
extra say, with it's libraries.. what's the extra download time on
that ? compared
David Lyon writes:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:18:25 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull
step...@xemacs.org wrote:
[1] on
my part) and sysadmin goals (something that works and plays nicely
with the rest of the system).
pythonpkgmgr seems entirely oblivious to the latter issue, and not
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 20:12:54 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull
step...@xemacs.org wrote:
Not you; pythonpkgmgr. You've said nothing about how pythonpkgmgr is
supposed to deal with multiple installed versions of Python
Under windows it can deal with multiple versions of python. You just
go to options
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:31:40 +0200, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de
wrote:
If they read examples, they will see import
statements, and then they have to find out how to make those work.
Does your tool help with that?
Yes. It will open the website or homepage to the project/package
in
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:33:37 +0200, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de
wrote:
pythonpkgmgr is not so different to that. And the idea behind it is
to bring consistancy in package management across the different
platforms.
At the cost of being inconsistent within a platform.
It has the most
David Lyon writes:
It manages local developer modules for python 2.6+.
pythonpkgmgr is aimed at featherweight users.
You were talking about developers, but now they're featherweight
users? I'm sorry, but the more you post, the less I like the idea of
including it with Python. Please do
pythonpkgmgr is not so different to that. And the idea behind it is
to bring consistancy in package management across the different
platforms.
At the cost of being inconsistent within a platform.
It has the most generic of user interfaces.
[...]
So I respectfully say that there
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:12:25 +0200, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de
wrote:
So there are now two incompatible ways to install a package:
either with the native manager, or with pythonpkgmgr. If you install
them one way, and try to remove them the other way, you lose.
pythonpkgmgr is only a
So there are now two incompatible ways to install a package:
either with the native manager, or with pythonpkgmgr. If you install
them one way, and try to remove them the other way, you lose.
pythonpkgmgr is only a thin wrapper for easy_install/pip.
If there is a problem, then it is
You can't seriously expect users to wait for years for an integrated
package management tool. Especially on Windows - that's cruel :-)
Hmm. I'm -0 on providing a tool whose only purpose is to download
files from a web server. I always use a web browser for that...
A Package Manager isn't a
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
I'm a user, and personally I don't want Yet Another Integrated Package
Management Tool. What I really want is the ability to install Python
packages using the PM tool I already use, namely yum. (And I'd like a
pony.)
Picking up on this point... out of curiousity, I
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:43:07 +0200, Martin v. Löwis mar...@v.loewis.de
wrote:
Hmm. I'm -0 on providing a tool whose only purpose is to download
files from a web server. I always use a web browser for that...
It does a lot more than that. Firstly it shows what packages you
already have installed
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:05:07 +1000, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info
wrote:
But you shouldn't expect the
Python dev team to accept an unproven tool into the official library
before demonstrating both the need and the solution.
Of course... that's why I started off by asking what the
David Lyon wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:05:07 +1000, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info
wrote:
But you shouldn't expect the
Python dev team to accept an unproven tool into the official library
before demonstrating both the need and the solution.
Of course... that's why I started
If they read examples, they will see import
statements, and then they have to find out how to make those work.
Does your tool help with that?
Yes. It will open the website or homepage to the project/package
in question.
How does it know the project in question?
Using pythonpkgmgr, they
I'm a user, and personally I don't want Yet Another Integrated Package
Management Tool. What I really want is the ability to install Python
packages using the PM tool I already use, namely yum.
ok - but no alternative to that is available on windows.
For removal of packages, an
Martin v. Löwis writes:
pythonpkgmgr is not so different to that. And the idea behind it is
to bring consistancy in package management across the different
platforms.
At the cost of being inconsistent within a platform.
Indeed, and that seems to be one of the really big sticking
David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:25:27 +1000, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au
You omit the important part: adding a new thing to Python *so long
as it doesn't depend on anything outside Python*.
I'm signing out on this silly discussion for now
2009/7/25 David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net:
It would, in fact, be best to work with the team performing ongoing
active standardisation of distutils functionality.
I am already doing that.
But there is a bias against windows development and a bias
against native applications. That's fine
It's my intention to get a Package Manager included in standard
python - yes.
In addition to the other constraints you'll have to meet for this
to happen, you also have to wait a rather long time (several years)
before inclusion becomes possible. This time is necessary for the
community to
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:00:13 +1000, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au
wrote:
I think you know quite well what “depend on” means in this instance,
so this is taking it to silly extremes.
haha - yes - no offence.
It was just bad humour.
Have a nice weekend
David
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:28:51 +0100, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
??? I see no bias as you describe in the distutils enhancement work.
ok
Native applications are by definition not platform neutral. How does
your proposal help Linux users? Mac OS? Solaris?
I'm doing a Linux/Solaris
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:06, Jean-Paul Calderone exar...@divmod.comwrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney
ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.auben%2bpyt...@benfinney.id.au
wrote:
[snip]
If that is not your intent, then your application shouldn't be mentioned
in standard Python
On 2009-07-25 17:28, Brett Cannon wrote:
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 18:06, Jean-Paul Calderone exar...@divmod.com
mailto:exar...@divmod.com wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney
ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au mailto:ben%2bpyt...@benfinney.id.au
wrote:
[snip]
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:47:21 -0400, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote:
The Python Package Manager can be written to work in console mode.
I think this would be best.
Haha - I'm glad somebody took this seriously... It was a sort of a joke
comment but it's a serious possibility.
I took
David Lyon schrieb:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de
wrote:
I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
to get into the Python standard library ever. We are not going to add
another GUI toolkit to the core distribution.
In
2009/7/24 Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net:
David Lyon schrieb:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de
wrote:
I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
to get into the Python standard library ever. We are not going to add
another GUI
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:11:38 -0700, Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com wrote:
Then why not include pip, easy_install, and this bash script I use to
install packages into core? The more the merrier, right?
Answer: None of these are standards, and as nick points out, there's
issues with sysadmins,
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:47, Sridhar Ratnakumar
sridh...@activestate.comwrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:11:38 -0700, Jesse Noller jnol...@gmail.com
wrote:
Then why not include pip, easy_install, and this bash script I use to
install packages into core? The more the merrier, right?
Answer:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:54:09 +0200, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote:
David Lyon schrieb:
In executable form, the Package Manager does not require wxWidgets
to be installed.
There is no dependency for this to be installed.
What does in exectuable form mean?
Compiled with py2exe.
An
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:08:32 +0100, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
I read this as meaning that David was proposing to ship a built
application (on Windows, bundled up with something like py2exe, I
guess) and any supporting DLLs such as the wxWindows ones would be
bundled in, but the
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de
wrote:
I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
to get into the Python standard library ever.
Is that a personal preference or is there a software engineering reason
for this?
I wasn't
david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
Distutils was once seperate and was then included in the standard
python.
So i guess that I am working with the same goal in mind.
I interpret this as expressing your intent to (eventually) have your
application included in standard Python.
David Lyon
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:40:52 +1000, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au
wrote:
I interpret this as expressing your intent to (eventually) have your
application included in standard Python.
It's my intention to get a Package Manager included in standard
python - yes.
I wasn't suggesting
Jean-Paul Calderone exar...@divmod.com writes:
Hm. But docutils isn't part of the standard library, and the
documentation refers to it.
Fair enough, because the documentation is generated using Docutils.
And the docs link to ActivePython and Enthought's Python distribution.
I consider those
David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
Not at all. In source form the pythonpkgmgr requires wx package. In
executable form it does not.
The only way it could be added is in source form; that's essential for
free software like Python. So, if it's not suitable for adding to Python
in
At 08:09 PM 7/24/2009 -0400, David Lyon wrote:
Presently it used pkg_resources to read the list of packages installed
which is part of setuptools. I was told it was the right and only way
to read a list of packages.
Right is relative, but right now it is certainly the *only* way to
read a
Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au writes:
The functionality you often discuss around this tool would be best
implemented independently of any UI. It would, in fact, be best to
work with the team performing ongoing active standardisation of
distutils functionality.
Sloppy use of “in
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:25:27 +1000, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au
You omit the important part: adding a new thing to Python *so long as it
doesn't depend on anything outside Python*.
I'm signing out on this silly discussion for now
Any python program is dependant on things outside
David Lyon writes:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:08:32 +0100, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
I read this as meaning that David was proposing to ship a built
application (on Windows, bundled up with something like py2exe, I
guess) and any supporting DLLs such as the wxWindows ones would
Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
to my project:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
I fail to see how this project is relevant in the context
of explaining distutils. So you would have to come up with
a proposal of specific wording that makes the relevance
David Lyon david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
I'm on the python-dev mailing list and somebody gave me a link
to a page that you have done:
http://docs.python.org/install/
That's a document describing how to use ‘distutils’, which is what every
recipient of Python will already have
That's a document describing how to use âdistutilsâ, which is what
every
recipient of Python will already have installed.
Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
to my project:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
That doesn't seem at all appropriate;
david.l...@preisshare.net writes:
Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
to my project:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
That doesn't seem at all appropriate; promoting third-party packages
isn't at all what the above document should be doing.
david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Distutils is a builtin module for 'pushing' a developer package 'to' pypi.
But there is no corresponging mechanise for a user to 'pull' packages back.
Surely this is a gap in the standard distro?
So it is not inappropriate for me to ask about this on this
Raising it without at least glancing at the list archives which hold
copious amounts of virtual text on that topic is somewhat inappropriate
though :)
Well I have consulted every available expert on the distutils list to the
point where I feel 'up' with the issues at hand.
They're great
david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Raising it without at least glancing at the list archives which hold
copious amounts of virtual text on that topic is somewhat inappropriate
though :)
Well I have consulted every available expert on the distutils list to the
point where I feel 'up' with the
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 5:43 AM, david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
Raising it without at least glancing at the list archives which hold
copious amounts of virtual text on that topic is somewhat inappropriate
though :)
Well I have consulted every available expert on the distutils list to the
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:30:58 +1000, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au
wrote:
In which case you should work to get it accepted into standard Python
*before* asking for it to be promoted in the standard Python
documentation.
I'm very interested in how I would go about doing that.
Die-hard
david.l...@preisshare.net wrote:
That's a document describing how to use âdistutilsâ, which is what
every
recipient of Python will already have installed.
Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
to my project:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
That
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 03:23:57 +0200, Christian Heimes li...@cheimes.de
wrote:
I'm sorry to inform you that a wxWindows based solution has zero change
to get into the Python standard library ever. We are not going to add
another GUI toolkit to the core distribution.
In executable form, the
Hi Greg,
I'm on the python-dev mailing list and somebody gave me a link
to a page that you have done:
http://docs.python.org/install/
Can I ask that you also provide a link for windows users
to my project:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pythonpkgmgr/
Our project provides an alternative
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