in a non-holistic way.
This is trumped by the need to keep the standard library warning-free.
But how about the following compromise: make it a silent deprecation
in 2.5, and a full deprecation in 2.6.
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On 8/25/05, Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wish Fredrik would chime in. He would
have something pithy, angry, and incisive to say about this.
Raymond, I'm sick of the abuse. Consider the PEP rejected.
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raise ValueError()
The latter.
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not coincide with
emitting warnings?)
See Michael Chermside's post.
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is very natural. For larger
examples, I'd recommend defining a class as always.
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be written
as if sub in s. This avoids the nasty bug in if s.find(sub).
If .find is scheduled for the dustbin of history, I would be willing to
suggest doc and docstring changes. (str.index.__doc__ currently refers to
str.find.__doc__. This should be reversed.)
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convinced that we
should do it.
Also remember, the standard library is rather atypical -- while some
of it makes great example code, other parts of it are highly contorted
in order to either maintain backwards compatibility or provide an
unusually high level of defensiveness.
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of two (short, good).
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-- consider
what happens if optval *starts* with a semicolon. Also, the code is
searching optval for ';' twice. Suggestion:
if vi in ('=',':'):
try: pos = optval.index(';')
except ValueError: pass
else:
if pos 0 and optval[pos-1].isspace():
optval = optval[:pos]
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in 2.5.
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of to be removed? I'm glad you're not on
*my* team. (Emphasis mine. :-)
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to it! (Not to
mention the 're' module.)
However, after 12 years, I believe that the small benefit of having
find() is outweighed by the frequent occurrence of bugs in its use.
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On 8/27/05, Aahz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005, Guido van Rossum wrote:
if vi in ('=',':'):
try: pos = optval.index(';')
except ValueError: pass
else:
if pos 0 and optval[pos-1].isspace():
optval = optval[:pos]
IIRC, one of your proposals
back to PyOS_StdioReadline
to zero. It can't be a Python specific thing, because it doesn't have
a 'Py' prefix.
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, /, c)
That can't be confusing can it?
(Just think of it as rpartition() stopping at the last occurrence,
rather than searching from the right. :-)
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exceptions are builtin?
I'm guessing this is a remnant from a transitional period around Python 1.5.
Let's get rid of it.
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that was proven to be asymptotically optimal,
but unfortunately was beat every time in practical applications by
something much simpler, *and* the algorithm was so complex that we
couldn't get the code 100% bugfree. But that was 20 years ago.
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to write list(d.keys()). How
is the translator going to know? Worse, there's a common idiom:
L = D.keys()
L.sort()
that should be replaced by
L = sorted(D)
how is the translator going to recognize that (given that there are
all sorts of variations)?
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regexps in your program that
the cache is cleared (the limit is 100).
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with %6.2f. (In fact, the major
complaint is about the one place where I *did* tinker with it --
%(boo)s.)
Maybe the ${boo} form can be extended to allow ${boo%6.2f} ???
Unfortunately that would prevent a different extension of ${boo}: %{boo+far}.
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work for assert because you don't want the argument to be
evaluated in -O mode.
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the trailing newline or the space between
items); would anyone support a proposal to make it a statement
instead?
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someone can work this into the Wiki?
(http://wiki.python.org/moin/PrintAsFunction)
As I said, I'm flexible on all the details but I really want to get
rid of the statement syntax for this functionality.
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it.
Same here. If anyone wants to give it a try, please go ahead!
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to speak up now and volunteer as a co-author. I
suggest the wiki as a place for working out drafts. I'm pulling out of
the discussion until I see a draft PEP.
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On 9/2/05, Gareth McCaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thursday 2005-09-01 18:09, Guido van Rossum wrote:
They *are* cached and there is no cost to using the functions instead
of the methods unless you have so many regexps in your program that
the cache is cleared (the limit is 100
the replacement too, but that's where I need
others to weigh in so we make sure all the important use cases are
covered.
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engineering habits are
dropped the moment people have to type a pair of extra parentheses.
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be syntactically related (within the realm
of common sense, as always).
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.
You're probably one of the two users. :-) So don't hesitate. If the
other user disagrees you two can fight it out in CVS. :)
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(...Not)
rule.
BTW we could use from __future__ import printing to disable the
recognition of 'print' as a keyword in a particular module -- this
would provide adequate future-proofing.
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(these are not the days of Fortran formatted output).
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command
language implements a break-like statement.
Ah. Now you've heard from the other user. :-)
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of the non-i18n use case, where the format isalmost always a
string *literal* adjacent to the arguments. I'm not at all convinced
that we should attempt to find a solution that handles both use cases;
most Python code never needs i18n.
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the real code you need to do is already written as
print(x =, x, y =, y, z =, z)
and that becomes more readable when you transform it to
printf(x = %s y = %s z = %s\n, x, y, z)
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to arbitrary expressions, which I think is an extension
that will get lots of requests.
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of the few annoyances I have with
Python. I know that Ruby somehow gets around the need
for ref. counting.
You could always use IronPython or Jython of course, neither of which has this.
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On 9/6/05, Michael Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gnyagh, couldn't you have *started* the thread with that post? :)
I hadn't anticipated so many great minds rusted shut. :-)
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framework. Remember YAGNI!
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with the Python source tree, to the point of contributing the code to
the PSF? (Without giving up ownership or responsibility for its
maintenance.)
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principle.
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clearer
to the reader whether we are writing binary or or text data.
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is determined by the module containing
the code creating it, not the module containing the code using it.
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I was wondering, why are we setting SIGPIPE to SIG_IGN
in initsigs():
Because you can get a SIGPIPE from writing to a socket whose other
side has shut down, and we want to turn that into an error.
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, your next chance will be 18 months later...
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compatibility. But just installing python3.0 as python and expecting
nothing will break is not a goal -- it would be too constraining.
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, write your code to
iterate over the dict itself even if you'd like itervalues or
iteritems; you can always get the value explicitly by indexing the
dict.
IOW use the API whose name will remain but don't rely on the
functionality that will change.
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of a UNIX user.
The test_ioctl test case is calling the TIOCGPGRP ioctl, which returns
the process group id, which is an attribute of the process. This has
type pid_t, which is signed.
I hope this clarifies the situation. I am glad to hear that it is
checked in!
Monte
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doing the
natural transformation. (In fact, this would be one 2.x - 3.0
transformation that could easily be automated if you can handle making
up less-than-optimal names for the arguments.)
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PyArg_ParseTuple(args, s:...).
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] wrote:
On 9/19/05, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That patch doesn't make sense to me -- the s code to
PyArg_ParseTuple doesn't return newly allocated memory, it just
returns a pointer into a string object that is owned by the caller
(really by the call machinery I suppose
.
Fair enough, though I'm not sure what use we can make of that information.
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mistype when switching between
languages...
Also, this proposal needs to be considered together with the addition
of a proper conditional operator, like x?y:z.
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On 9/20/05, Michael Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On 9/19/05, Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I propose that in Py3.0, the and and or operators be simplified to
always return a Boolean value instead of returning the last evaluated
('ascii','replace')
'Andr x'
The test passes on Linux. We have about 6 hours until code freeze...
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This seems to disappear when I disable -O. I guess the HP-UX optimizer
is as bad as it always was. Or perhaps we have an old version
installed. Sorry!
On 9/20/05, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just built and ran the latest Python 2.4.2c1 from CVS on our HP-UX
Itanium 2 box
This happens both with 2.4.2c1 and with 2.5a0 from current CVS.
I know in order to debug you need more info about my audio device, but
since I never use audio on Linux, you'll have to talk me through
providing the info. I'm [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Google talk BTW.
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On 9/20/05, Terry Reedy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
and +1 on adding a conditional expression. I believe (y if x else z)
was my favorite last time, wasn't it?
No. That was your original proposal, which you later rejected.
Thanks
colons in list comps and genexprs either.)
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scale much better. All arguments for multi-processing and against
multi-threading.
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__len__() returns 0 but whose __nonzero__()
returns True would be an anomaly.
The best we can do IMO is to change it back in 2.5.
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implementing
(as acquisition in Zope 2 has amply proved).
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approach
is to code with that in mind. When this type of look-ahead is
required, a buffering iterator should be inserted, so that the
algorithm can work with all iterators rather than only with iterators
over built-in containers.
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.
QOTF candidate!
(I wonder if this thread could be summarized into a PEP we can use
instead of future discussions rehashing the same issues?)
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can't as a community agree on a syntax.
That's what we have a BDFL for. =)
Another QOTFcandidate!
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be willing to entertain improvements that improve the insulation
this provides.
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On 9/21/05, Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[Guido van Rossum]
Could you at least admit that this was an oversight and not try to
pretend it was intentional breakage?
Absolutely. I completely missed this one.
Thanks; spoken like a man.
I strongly feel that this needs
/darwinsource/ it is clear that OS X
10.a.b corresponds to Darwin (a+4).b, except for OS X versions =
10.1. I'd be happy to write the code and add it to system_alias() in
platform.py. Is this a good idea?
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On 9/21/05, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The platform module has a way to map system names such as returned by
uname() to marketing names. It maps SunOS to Solaris, for example. But
it doesn't map Darwin to Mac OS X. I think I know how to map Darwin
version numbers to OS X version
a generator? (I know, the answer is buffering.
But that has problems too. It was all considered when we designed it.)
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Thanks all! I won't touch it. /usr/bin/sw_vers is the way to go.
On 9/22/05, M.-A. Lemburg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ronald Oussoren wrote:
On 22-sep-2005, at 5:26, Guido van Rossum wrote:
The platform module has a way to map system names such as returned by
uname() to marketing names
Please end this thread. It belongs in c.l.py. Nothing's going to change.
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defaultproperty?
(Sorry to turn this into a naming game, which is bound to produce 100s
of competing proposals that are totally unintuitive except to the
proposer. But naming is important.)
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: type = 'I' if file else 'D'
xdrlib.py: print 'succeed' if pred(x) else 'failed', ':', x
xmlrpclib.py: write(1 if value else 0)
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On 9/29/05, Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[a garbled list]
Stupid gmail broke the lines. Here it is again as an attachment.
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XifCelseY.py
Description: application/python
somethingElse
not-expecting-this-to-fly-ly y'rs - steve
Let me give you what you expect. If all the X if C else Y syntax
does is prevent that atrocity from ever being introduced, it would be
worth it. :)
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http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/05/09/28/1955256.shtml?tid=103tid=17tid=219
Congratulations David! (Don't have his email.)
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original instinct to omit conditional
expressions was right!
Now you've pushed me over the edge. I've made up my mind now, X if C
else Y it will be. I hope to find time to implement it in Python 2.5.
Let it be as controversial as bool or @decorator, I don't care.
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.
Congratulations gracefully accepted.
It's still my language! :-)
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functionality, naturally).
Maybe I'm just an old fart, but this all seems way over-engineered.
Even for projects the size of Python, a simple grep+find is sufficient.
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the PIL
directory on sys.path?
Anyway, don't hesitate to suggest a patch on sourceforge -- python-dev
really isn't the forum for further discussion of this issue.
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is in the way for these types of apps.
So whatever innovatice concurrency scheme Python may come out, it should
still be mixable with more traditional concurrency schemes, because
required properties vary wildly even inside a single app.
I don't think you've proved that yet.
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is a container (at least every object with a
__dict__ attribute) and you sure don't want to map __len__ to
self.__dict__.__len__...
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was in the
midst of it.
However, I wonder if the logic isn't such that if you define both
sq_item and mp_subscript, __getitem__ calls sq_item; I wonder if by
removing sq_item it might call mp_subscript? Worth a try, anyway.
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. -- Måns Nilsson, asr
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as possible. There won't be a literal for
it.
But you will be able to convert between bytes and strings quite easily
by specifying an encoding.
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On 10/3/05, Antoine Pitrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Le lundi 03 octobre 2005 à 14:02 -0700, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
On 10/3/05, Antoine Pitrou [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Could the bytes type be just the same as the current str type but
without the implicit unicode conversion ? Or am I
passing the Python 2.4 test suite, I'm wondering if it should be bumped
from the feature list again.
What do you want me to say about the AST branch? It's not my branch, I
haven't even checked it out, I'm just patiently waiting for the folks
who started it to finally finish it.
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).
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