[ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
Dave wrote: They do. Unfortunately, it's something of a poor relation. They're made on .5 or .65u processes with aluminium interconnects - generally very old hat. Not quite. The 68LC060RC75 uses a 0.35um process. Still I'd love to see it in 0.15um :-) Finally, with open hardware, and/or doing it the old-fashioned way, what is the likely interest in a QL-compatible SBC? note the Q40/Q60 are not an SBC - an SBC would have the interfaces and connectors all built onto the same board. I sure considered making the Q40 an SBC. But the majority of users needed systems with harddisks, CDROMs, Floppys and standard Minitower cases with powersupply. This renders the size advantage of an SBC almost useless. While it would add costs. E.g. for the price of an off-the-shelf ISA multi IO card (with all cables) you could hardly purchase the components and connectors, let alone the cables and extra PCB and SMD production costs. Peter
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], ZN [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes The problem with the Motorola 68000 series is that they aren't making them anymore. They do. Unfortunately, it's something of a poor relation. They're made on .5 or .65u processes with aluminium interconnects - generally very old hat. If they were fabbed at even .25u, they would happily run at 250-400MHz speeds. But that would cost a few tens of millions of bucks ;) Actually, the biggest problem with the 68k family is that Mot. does not want to sell the licence to anyone else, so that even FPGA cores that implement the same instruction set are, strictly speaking, illegal. Besides, there are compatible (or close enough) CPUs based on the 68k manufactured using .25u process, the V4 ColdFire. Even here we have a problem, which is Mot. dawdling over making the chips more freely available. They are targetted at the embedded OEM market and get 'compiled' to order along with peripherals. HP uses them profusely in their printers, for instance, because Mot. gladly maks speciffic versions that reduce the printer to 2 chips. The validity of the 68k concept is certainly obvios, otherwise it would have died a long time ago. Instead, an attempt to reduce the instruction set in the previous generation ColdFire's has been all but reversed with the new ones, which can be made almost completely compatible - if you can get Mot. to sell them to you! Thanks for the clarity around the 68k. I was gettting the impression that the series had come to the end of its development potential. In terms of Mot doing the manufacturing. Yet obviously not the case. HP do make very good printers ... so that's how they are doing it :-) I guess it is very financially worthwhile too ... as every computer needs a printer, or two. There are a couple of alternative aproaches, all of which have problems with mustering the required amount of manhours to make them work. One interesting possibility would be a Transmeta CPU with a 68k code interpreter. Even the smaller Crusoe would do just fine. In this case you also have the problem in getting Transmeta to provide the data to write the interpreter. Transmeta has invested a lot of work in producing their code morpher for I86 CPUs, and they principally want to sell you the licence for that - the CPU just comes along. On the otehr hand, a 68k interpreter or (wishful thinking) code morpher could be a lucrative venture. The QL community by far isn't the only one wanting faster 68k CPUs. This is interesting ... what other approaches are there ? Is there any QDOS/compatible OS that's written in C? I could try to get it converted to compile on ARM chips - I realize for QDOS itself that's a no-no, as it's basically hand assembly... what's the nearest to a version of QDOS written in C? There isn't one. In fact, I wish there was one because it could be used as a classic comparison of Assembler vs C efficiency :-) Finally, with open hardware, and/or doing it the old-fashioned way, what is the likely interest in a QL-compatible SBC? note the Q40/Q60 are not an SBC - an SBC would have the interfaces and connectors all built onto the same board. I can hunt around for a schematic for the original QL and dig out my SQB schematics and see what else could be added in... This isn't likely to happen, but if it was, what would people be looking for? Well, not that I am putting down the idea, but wouldn't that be a step back, especially considering your lamentation re 68k not being available on a .25u process :-) Strictly speaking, no there are no QL based SBCs, but the problem here is that QL developement being what it is, there is an interesting problem of conflicting requirements: 1) Because of limited resources, we get to design such a thing about once in a decade, which means a lot has to be anticipated - whatever is designed has to last a decade! 2) 'Evolving' too far away from existing hardware results in problems with actually using the new features - entirely because of a lack of open _software_ developement, namely the OS. 3) At the same time, whatever you come up with gets compared to the latest PC, but is required to be able to use all the old QL bits. Hardware developement is not really a problem, to tell you the truth. It's making the OS cope with it that's the real problem. This really requires the designer of the hardware to become a one-man band and do boththe hardware, and the software - that's very unlikely to happen. By all means, I applaud your open hardware developement idea, but I would at the very least like to see it followed by open software developement - maybe even preceeded by open software developement. clip -- Malcolm Cadman
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phoebus R. Dokos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes A 68060@66MHz Q60 will give you about 300 times the processing power of a QL... not that bad, hue ? Not bad at all... :o) I've been playing with StrongARMs. When Sinclair went away I followed the Acorn route. This is the main reason I'm so out-of-date on the current state of play... ;) I use RISC OS, as well as QL and PC ... so you are in good company :-) ARM have made considerable progress with the RISC chips ... they even have INTEL on board now, after all these years ... The problem with the Motorola 68000 series is that they aren't making them anymore. I beg to differ Malcolm... what about M*Core chips like the DragonBall for example (Used in Palm OS handhelds or even the 68010 (Used in TI92 calculators... hehe just bought one... BTW... anybody wants to port QDOS on it). Even 68040's and 60s are being produced if I am not mistaken Isn't this the 'embedded' market though, like the ARM chips that are appearing in many exciting products ? It is always the case that new hardware stimulates new software development. What is to follow the 68060 ? -- Malcolm Cadman
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dexter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Malcolm Cadman wrote: I use RISC OS, as well as QL and PC ... so you are in good company :-) Risc PC 700/SA@287MHz, plus a LART (www.lart.tudelft.nl) I am using an 'older' generation, an A3000, with upgraded SCSI 1 interface. ARM have made considerable progress with the RISC chips ... they even have INTEL on board now, after all these years ... I wouldn't say they have Intel on board. Intel won the intellectual property that is the difference between an ARM and a Digital StrongARM in a lawsuit with Digital. They saw the embedded marketplace as the largest growth area in the future, and they were right - by controlling their already-biggest competing product, well... He .. he .. good to see you have not lost the scepticism :-) The problem with the Motorola 68000 series is that they aren't making them anymore. They do. Unfortunately, it's something of a poor relation. They're made on .5 or .65u processes with aluminium interconnects - generally very old hat. If they were fabbed at even .25u, they would happily run at 250-400MHz speeds. But that would cost a few tens of millions of bucks ;) Indeed ... the new development is not being invested in. Is the supply of 68000 series still assured for the forseeable future ? Is there any QDOS/compatible OS that's written in C? I could try to get it converted to compile on ARM chips - I realize for QDOS itself that's a no-no, as it's basically hand assembly... what's the nearest to a version of QDOS written in C? Finally, with open hardware, and/or doing it the old-fashioned way, what is the likely interest in a QL-compatible SBC? note the Q40/Q60 are not an SBC - an SBC would have the interfaces and connectors all built onto the same board. I can hunt around for a schematic for the original QL and dig out my SQB schematics and see what else could be added in... This isn't likely to happen, but if it was, what would people be looking for? Not getting anyone's hopes up, but asking seriously... -- Malcolm Cadman
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 07:16:42PM +0100, Peter Graf wrote: The reason why we don't emphasize the slots are the current lack of QL software drivers for anything but IDE, FLP, SER, PAR. The only thing I can see missing from that list that I consider important is ethernet. We have Ethernet! It works fine on Q40/Q60, but under Linux. The development of QDOS/SMS software is (as always) the big bottleneck. actually it would be easy to get Ethernet and TCP/IP working in QDOS. A much bigger problem is 'ppp' support, unfortunately thats what most people need to get internet access. A Q60 on DSL or cable modem would be fun though. Bye Richard
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:22:34AM -0500, ZN wrote: Actually, the biggest problem with the 68k family is that Mot. does not want to sell the licence to anyone else, so that even FPGA cores that implement the same instruction set are, strictly speaking, illegal. Besides, there are compatible (or close enough) CPUs based on the 68k manufactured using .25u process, the V4 ColdFire. Even here we have a problem, which is Mot. dawdling over making the chips more freely available. They are targetted at the embedded OEM market and get 'compiled' to order along with peripherals. HP uses them profusely in their printers, for instance, because Mot. gladly maks speciffic versions that reduce the printer to 2 chips. The validity of the 68k concept is certainly obvios, otherwise it would have died a long time ago. Instead, an attempt to reduce the instruction set in the previous generation ColdFire's has been all but reversed with the new ones, which can be made almost completely compatible - if you can get Mot. to sell them to you! not yet compatible enough for our purposes. Even if they were, the emulation of the missing instructions can have serious impact on performance. They probably loose half of their potential markets because of the silly incompability. Bye Richard
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dexter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes This begs the question: What is the current best performer in 68XXX Integer: 68LC060 80MHz (but it lacks a FPU) Floating point math: 68060 66MHz A 68060@66MHz Q60 will give you about 300 times the processing power of a QL... not that bad, hue ? Not bad at all... :o) I've been playing with StrongARMs. When Sinclair went away I followed the Acorn route. This is the main reason I'm so out-of-date on the current state of play... ;) I use RISC OS, as well as QL and PC ... so you are in good company :-) ARM have made considerable progress with the RISC chips ... they even have INTEL on board now, after all these years ... The problem with the Motorola 68000 series is that they aren't making them anymore. -- Malcolm Cadman
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
At 12:01 ðì 2/1/2002 +, you wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dexter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes This begs the question: What is the current best performer in 68XXX Integer: 68LC060 80MHz (but it lacks a FPU) Floating point math: 68060 66MHz A 68060@66MHz Q60 will give you about 300 times the processing power of a QL... not that bad, hue ? Not bad at all... :o) I've been playing with StrongARMs. When Sinclair went away I followed the Acorn route. This is the main reason I'm so out-of-date on the current state of play... ;) I use RISC OS, as well as QL and PC ... so you are in good company :-) ARM have made considerable progress with the RISC chips ... they even have INTEL on board now, after all these years ... The problem with the Motorola 68000 series is that they aren't making them anymore. I beg to differ Malcolm... what about M*Core chips like the DragonBall for example (Used in Palm OS handhelds or even the 68010 (Used in TI92 calculators... hehe just bought one... BTW... anybody wants to port QDOS on it). Even 68040's and 60s are being produced if I am not mistaken Phoebus -- Malcolm Cadman
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Malcolm Cadman wrote: I use RISC OS, as well as QL and PC ... so you are in good company :-) Risc PC 700/SA@287MHz, plus a LART (www.lart.tudelft.nl) ARM have made considerable progress with the RISC chips ... they even have INTEL on board now, after all these years ... I wouldn't say they have Intel on board. Intel won the intellectual property that is the difference between an ARM and a Digital StrongARM in a lawsuit with Digital. They saw the embedded marketplace as the largest growth area in the future, and they were right - by controlling their already-biggest competing product, well... The problem with the Motorola 68000 series is that they aren't making them anymore. They do. Unfortunately, it's something of a poor relation. They're made on .5 or .65u processes with aluminium interconnects - generally very old hat. If they were fabbed at even .25u, they would happily run at 250-400MHz speeds. But that would cost a few tens of millions of bucks ;) Is there any QDOS/compatible OS that's written in C? I could try to get it converted to compile on ARM chips - I realize for QDOS itself that's a no-no, as it's basically hand assembly... what's the nearest to a version of QDOS written in C? Finally, with open hardware, and/or doing it the old-fashioned way, what is the likely interest in a QL-compatible SBC? note the Q40/Q60 are not an SBC - an SBC would have the interfaces and connectors all built onto the same board. I can hunt around for a schematic for the original QL and dig out my SQB schematics and see what else could be added in... This isn't likely to happen, but if it was, what would people be looking for? Not getting anyone's hopes up, but asking seriously... Dave
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dexter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Hi If it helps I'm another lapsed QLer I used to make and ship most of the SuperQBoards and Expanderams. I also saw and heard things that were historically significant. I was there at the inception of the Futura project, and it was there, in that small industrial unit, that Alan Miles and Bruce Gordon started developing the Sam Coupe. I got involved with the sam after MGT moved to Swansea. Did Bruce do any QL hardware design? I knew of the Spectrum Card Cage, DisCiple and +D interfaces, and then the sam. I don't currently own a QL - it got left behind when I moved to the US. I've recently been playing with QLay and looking at websites describing the amazing strides that were made with the hardware and QDOS since I left the scene. Wow! Yes I have been playing with Qlay too. Seem to able to crash it a lot. Now I need to find all my old QL disks and really try it out. Regards Wayne... p.s. Anyone know of what happened to BBOX Ltd, Furst Ltd? I did know Graham Goodwin Phil Gutteridge personally, and still have a SMS2 Atari system somewhere. -- --- Wayne M Weedon Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fdos Design Poole UK Tel +44-1202-677025Fax +44-1202-770515 Mobile: 07774 439915 Specialists in small batch Production Mechanical/Electrical Engineering ---
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Wayne Weedon wrote: I got involved with the sam after MGT moved to Swansea. Did Bruce do any QL hardware design? I knew of the Spectrum Card Cage, DisCiple and +D interfaces, and then the sam. Ahhh, MGT... One day, two guys came in and cleared a bench. They had a cardboard box with 3 or 4 Spectrums in it. My first job for them was to desolder all the components. They got a wire-wrap board and rebuilt the Spectrum on that - then they started building... The first thing they did was double the speed of it. It seemed lightning quick at the time. Amusingly, they didn't have any Spectrum software - they were truly hardware geeks and the idea of actually running software on it totally passed them by. I brought in two games from home - one was a helicopter simulator whose name has long been forgotten. The other was a cute lil' game called Alien8, which involved trundling a robot around an isometric maze. At the time I was addicted to Hobnobs, and it was quite an effort to stop Bruce pinching mine. I applied plan b and got him addicted - then he became my supplier ;) I knew that they were Alan Miles and Bruce Gordon, and that they designed the Disciple interface, and that I was present at an Important Happening, but I was a teenager at the time, and therefore easily impressed. Yes I have been playing with Qlay too. Seem to able to crash it a lot. Now I need to find all my old QL disks and really try it out. Yup. I've been looking at the current batch (that's really too big a word for it) of QL-evolved boards and don't really see anything that I can say Hey, that's a modern day super-QL! I want one! There are some pics of some anonymous looking boards with a distinct lack of interfaces, and ambiguous chips... :o) This begs the question: What is the current best performer in 68XXX processors, and does anyone know how to program FPGAs so we can circumvent those two custom chips? :o) Dave
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
Dexter wrote:- I brought in two games from home - one was a helicopter simulator whose name has long been forgotten. The other was a cute lil' game called Alien8, which involved trundling a robot around an isometric maze. Now you're bringing me back! I was a HUGE fan of Alien8 and all the other titles by Ultimate play the game. I was (for a brief time) the Sabre Wulf champion scorer and was among the first batch to collect all the parts of the amulet. also came 2nd in a Jetpac competition at the annual microfair. Still have them all - Cookie, Pssst!, Jetpac, Lunar Jetman, Nightshade, Gunfight, Cyberrun, Underwurlde, Sabre Wulf, the lot. Knight lore (the first of the isometric type games) was amazingly advanced when it first appeared, you can get a 256 colour version to run on SPEC256 (a VGA colour spectrum emulator for the PC from Spain). A... Nostalgia. Sorry about the off topic-ness. BTW, the helicopter sim was probably Combat Lynx by Durrell, or maybe one of the ones by Digital Integration. Or maybe Cyclone by Vortex? Cheers, Darren. This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete this E-mail from your system. Thank you. It is possible for data transmitted by email to be deliberately or accidentally corrupted or intercepted. For this reason, where the communication is by email, the Bank of Ireland Group does not accept any responsibility for any breach of confidence which may arise through the use of this medium. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of known computer viruses.
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:17:48 + (GMT), Dexter wrote: I've been looking at the current batch (that's really too big a word for it) of QL-evolved boards and don't really see anything that I can say Hey, that's a modern day super-QL! I want one! You probably did not had a look to the Q60 then: go see: http://www.q40.de/q60/forsale.html and: http://www.q40.de/q60/miniq60.html This begs the question: What is the current best performer in 68XXX Integer: 68LC060 80MHz (but it lacks a FPU) Floating point math: 68060 66MHz A 68060@66MHz Q60 will give you about 300 times the processing power of a QL... not that bad, hue ? QDOS/SMS forever ! Thierry ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
Hi Dave, I've been looking at the current batch (that's really too big a word for it) of QL-evolved boards and don't really see anything that I can say Hey, that's a modern day super-QL! I want one! Q40/Q60 use the fastest possible CPUs, the fastest possible graphics, and (almost) the only extension bus that has a chance of QDOS software support *and* available cards. Of course there are some things that could be improved, if there was a market. But I don't see a real big gap in the hardware, which, if closed, would turn it into a modern day super-QL. If you see it, let me know ;-) There are some pics of some anonymous looking boards with a distinct lack of interfaces, and ambiguous chips... :o) What do you mean by ambiguous? I saw this. I've looked again and it seems I was misled by the pictures. I saw a nice high-speed board with a [keyboard/video/insert guess here] Yep. MF II Keyboard-IF, sampled sound IF, and directly QL hardware- compatible graphic chipset are onboard. I didn't use PC stuff for the graphics and that proved to be a wise decision :-) interface and two ISA slots. I had these nightmare visions of not having any interfaces, or worse, having to use the ISA bus to connect the interfaces (which is scary because none were illustrated or mentioned on the site) - I say misled because obviously it must have these things - I just didn't see them... Well, there are no extensions produced for the QL bus these days. At least none that aren't already implemented by the standard Q40/Q60 equipment. So in my opinion there was no use in implementing the QL bus. There is no (even slightly) realistic chance for having PCI drivers under QDOS/SMS, so ISA was the best. It makes no sense to have extensions without software support. The reason why we don't emphasize the slots are the current lack of QL software drivers for anything but IDE, FLP, SER, PAR. I've been playing with StrongARMs. When Sinclair went away I followed the Acorn route. This is the main reason I'm so out-of-date on the current state of play... ;) The ARM CPU situation is magnitudes better than 68k. The Q60/80 is the fastest 68k machine I know, but if we had CPU's 20 times faster we would definitely use them ;) All the best Peter
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Peter Graf wrote: Of course there are some things that could be improved, if there was a market. But I don't see a real big gap in the hardware, which, if closed, would turn it into a modern day super-QL. If you see it, let me know ;-) My comments are more a reflection on the lack of explanation given on the site ;) I see a single card with a single interface, 2 SIMM slots and two ISA slots. I worked on the assumption that if I paid the... well, there was no price I could find on the web site... if I paid the mystery amount, I would get that board, and have to provide for my own interfaces. That's just the first impression the site gave. The board does have a very nice spec though... :o) What do you mean by ambiguous? There are four lattice FPGAs? What do they do? I'm assuming you are very familiar with the hardware. Yep. MF II Keyboard-IF, sampled sound IF, and directly QL hardware- compatible graphic chipset are onboard. I didn't use PC stuff for the graphics and that proved to be a wise decision :-) I'm guessing these are at those pins on the top left, but as they aren't labelled... ;) However, I can fully understand your design decisions - they make good sense... The reason why we don't emphasize the slots are the current lack of QL software drivers for anything but IDE, FLP, SER, PAR. The only thing I can see missing from that list that I consider important is ethernet. Thanks for the info, and for correcting some of my misunderstandings. What's the likelihood of the site being updated a little to include more information? Also, is there room for an open hardware development site, so we could try to co-operatively develop a board with basic features like IDE and ethernet on the board, and possibly a defined expansion connector with all the necessary address/data lines? This would then find a market not just to QL enthusiasts but also to the SBC marketplace... I would quite like to be involved with something like that :o) Dave
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
Hi Dave, My comments are more a reflection on the lack of explanation given on the site ;) If you look real close, you'll find the details ;-) Nevertheless it is good to hear about the impression the website made on you. You are an example for a person which has not been familiar with the QL scene for long time. We are sure doing something wrong. We need to put ourselves more into the position of someone who just wants to get a quick overview. Thanks for your comments. There are four lattice FPGAs? What do they do? I'm assuming you are very familiar with the hardware. They are stuffed with hand-optimized logic. Look similar to GALs but have many thousands of gates. The FPGAs implement: -DRAM controller -32 Bit QL modes and highcolor/highres graphics -Interrupt controller -ISA bus controller -PC keyboard interface -Interfaces to the onboard peripherals like NVRAM, clock, LED, sound -waitstates, chipselects and all the other system stuff The reason why we don't emphasize the slots are the current lack of QL software drivers for anything but IDE, FLP, SER, PAR. The only thing I can see missing from that list that I consider important is ethernet. We have Ethernet! It works fine on Q40/Q60, but under Linux. The development of QDOS/SMS software is (as always) the big bottleneck. What's the likelihood of the site being updated a little to include more information? 50:50 ;-) There is not really a large lack of info, but you must work yourself through the links to get it all. The information needs better presentation. Also, is there room for an open hardware development site, so we could try to co-operatively develop a board with basic features like IDE and ethernet on the board, and possibly a defined expansion connector with all the necessary address/data lines? The Q40/Q60 is open hardware. All interfaces are open and documented. You can implement your own OS, make your own extension cards, or do whatever you like. In fact we have two (working!) non-commercial operating systems, which was only possible by the open and documented hardware. Thanks to Richard Zidlicky and Mark Swift who did the software. Q40/Q60 hardware fully supports IDE and Ethernet. IDE gets used under all OS, Ethernet currently only under Linux. This would then find a market not just to QL enthusiasts but also to the SBC marketplace... I would quite like to be involved with something like that :o) I am pessimistic, because the 68060 CPU's are very expensive, and not as fast as other architectures. All the best Peter
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 at 15:45:58, Dexter wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Did anyone else increase their microdrive capacities by machining down their capstan pins? I did this at work with some wet'n'dry at took about 0.002 off the diameter of the pin. This increased the capacity from 107 (sectors/k/can't remember) to 125 or so, even if the cartridges only could be read/written in that specific microdrive unit. Arghhh. The whole trouble with QL microdrives is that they increased the capacity from 80k to 100k nominal, and in doing that made them very unreliable. Smaller capstans == more unreliability. and incompatibility too. This is really bringing memories back - it's very therapeutic ;) Glad it helps (8-)# -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 at 22:00:17, Bill Waugh wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yep I spoke to Arnie once or twice, I think the Italian keyboard was SPEM, they flogged them off eventually as they fitted straight into the QL connector and I bought one it was pretty good. My experience of these, from the repair end, is bad. Good points: . Looked good . Felt good Bad points: . 'gold' pcb contacts weren't. They oxidised and didn't work well after many years. Disassembling and cleaning was possible but very difficult. . Suffered very badly from keybounce, esp when oxidised 8749 developed to overcome this, but destroyed ser2. Hermes eventually solved this. . Ribbon cable to mini kbd connector pcb badly made - wires broke easily. Solved with my ubiquitous hot glue. . Destroyed the QL keyboard sockets for membranes. . QL case top destroyed -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 at 00:10:10, Dexter wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Waugh wrote: Yep I spoke to Arnie once or twice, I think the Italian keyboard was SPEM, they flogged them off eventually as they fitted straight into the QL connector and I bought one it was pretty good. IIRC Arnie bemoaned the fact that Tony kept changing the spec and I do recall him (Arnie) telling me that the Italian parent company had pulled the plug ( can't recall the Italian companies name, definitely was not Sandy ) SPEM sounds about right. They were making a low cost memory that we used to sell. It involved unplugging an IC, inserting the board into the IC socket then inserting the IC into the board. I didn't like the design at all - it was mechanically unsound and slow. and a few wires to the 68008 - not an easy job. Yes - mechanically it was terrible, and I rescued a lot of QLs where the board fell off. You were not the only manufacturer. A lot of people were also seduced into removing all the 64k and replacing, or piggy-backing 256 - yuk. The expanderam 512K was measurably faster. Yep - external memory is 30% faster. Afterwards, when the QL market started to shrink, they moved from Manton Heights to Stanley St, and rebranded themselves as Power Computing making floppies for amigas and ataris. ... and as Power Computing they sold that really really awful noisy switched mode replacement for the pretty good reliable QLs 7805. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
Tony Firshman wrote: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 at 22:00:17, Bill Waugh wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yep I spoke to Arnie once or twice, I think the Italian keyboard was SPEM, they flogged them off eventually as they fitted straight into the QL connector and I bought one it was pretty good. My experience of these, from the repair end, is bad. Good points: . Looked good . Felt good Bad points: . 'gold' pcb contacts weren't. They oxidised and didn't work well after many years. Disassembling and cleaning was possible but very difficult. . Suffered very badly from keybounce, esp when oxidised 8749 developed to overcome this, but destroyed ser2. Hermes eventually solved this. . Ribbon cable to mini kbd connector pcb badly made - wires broke easily. Solved with my ubiquitous hot glue. . Destroyed the QL keyboard sockets for membranes. Yes I eventually needed to use cut off strips of membrane to pad out the slot . QL case top destroyed Needed to file a slot in the back of the case to allow cable to sit in I sold my Spem keyboard on to Dennis Crow ( now deceased ), Dennis just loved it and as I had bought a Di-Ren keyboard and interface I let him have it. The Di-Ren stuff I still have although one of our club members has it on extended loan due to his S/H needing Tony's attention ( my fault I still haven't sent it to him ). I thought the Di-Ren kit was very good and will have it back in my original system soon as I can. Was the Italian firm involved with Sandy called Farmintel or something similar or was that someone else. All the best - Bill
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 at 10:06:12, Bill Waugh wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Tony Firshman wrote: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 at 22:00:17, Bill Waugh wrote: (ref: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yep I spoke to Arnie once or twice, I think the Italian keyboard was SPEM, they flogged them off eventually as they fitted straight into the QL connector and I bought one it was pretty good. My experience of these, from the repair end, is bad. Good points: . Looked good . Felt good Bad points: . 'gold' pcb contacts weren't. They oxidised and didn't work well after many years. Disassembling and cleaning was possible but very difficult. . Suffered very badly from keybounce, esp when oxidised 8749 developed to overcome this, but destroyed ser2. Hermes eventually solved this. . Ribbon cable to mini kbd connector pcb badly made - wires broke easily. Solved with my ubiquitous hot glue. . Destroyed the QL keyboard sockets for membranes. Yes I eventually needed to use cut off strips of membrane to pad out the slot . QL case top destroyed Needed to file a slot in the back of the case to allow cable to sit in Ah - I think this is a _different_ keyboard. The one I was rabbiting on about actually took the place of the QL keyboard. Sorry The Di-Ren stuff I still have although one of our club members has it on extended loan due to his S/H needing Tony's attention ( my fault I still haven't sent it to him ). Please do - bet it is a broken pin. I thought the Di-Ren kit was very good and will have it back in my original system soon as I can. -- QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk Voice: +44(0)1442-828254 Fax: +44(0)1442-828255 TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
Re: [ql-users] Re: Welcome to ql-users
Was the Italian firm involved with Sandy called Farmintel or something similar or was that someone else. I remember the name 'Farmintel' from that period too. The Futura was a computer I was very interested in at the time, and most disappointed when it didn't come out. They also had a QXL-style QL board for PCs as well IIRC, but that also never got sold. The Futura was promoted as hhaving SuperBASIC compatible programming language, only faster. I seem to remember it was a pseudo or semi-compiled BASIC along the lines of SBASIC. Maybe Dave can correct me there. -- Dilwyn Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.soft.net.uk/dj/index.html
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Tony Firshman wrote: Bad points: . 'gold' pcb contacts weren't. They oxidised and didn't work well after many years. Disassembling and cleaning was possible but very difficult. A pen eraser is the best tool for this. You just have to rub it up and down the contacts instead of across them. . Destroyed the QL keyboard sockets for membranes. That was kind of inevitable because we were putting a thin PCB into a socket meant for a membrane. We tried lots of different things and decided that was the least impracticable... Not good, but better than the alternatives. . QL case top destroyed There was discussion of making a case expander. We thought it was a smart idea to split the case and mould an insert that would give approx 1.25 extra height to the machine. We thought it would be great for flipping cars over and running them back up inside the case, with a new row of connectors at the back for parallel, floppy, etc. There was even hopes of putting a 3.5 floppy in the right side of the case. I made a card/balsa prototype but got annoyed with hitting the reset button when trying to eject floppies. Dave
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Bill Waugh wrote: Was the Italian firm involved with Sandy called Farmintel or something similar or was that someone else. The name Farmintel is familiar, but I don't know what the connection was, sorry. Dave
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Dexter wrote: Hello, This is a note to introduce myself to the list, since I'm newly subscribed. My name's Dave Park. I currently live in Houston, TX, but was raised in Bedford, England, where I was the first employee of Sandy (UK) PCP Ltd. I used to make and ship most of the SuperQBoards and Expanderams. I also saw and heard things that were historically significant. I was there at the inception of the Futura project, and it was there, in that small industrial unit, that Alan Miles and Bruce Gordon started developing the Sam Coupe. I don't currently own a QL - it got left behind when I moved to the US. I've recently been playing with QLay and looking at websites describing the amazing strides that were made with the hardware and QDOS since I left the scene. Wow! Anyway, I'll be sitting on the list, and if there's anything historical where I might have some input, I'll show up. :) Dave Ok Dave here's a starter, I was one of the folks that ordered a Futura, possibly it might have been a dead end job considering the hardware that come since but my question is this - Who was Maria Futura ( I may have the name a bit wrong ) she seemed to be in charge of the admin side of things, I thought the name being similar or the same as the computer was a bit funny. all the best - Bill
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On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Waugh wrote: Ok Dave here's a starter, I was one of the folks that ordered a Futura, possibly it might have been a dead end job considering the hardware that come since but my question is this - Who was Maria Futura ( I may have the name a bit wrong ) she seemed to be in charge of the admin side of things, I thought the name being similar or the same as the computer was a bit funny. My boss was Tony Ianiri, and his partner was Maria. There was also a man whos name I just can't remember. He was about 45 and raced motorcycles. I remember the Futura project too. Nothing was actually designed in the UK. Tony was italian, and closely related to an italian company that was making budget memory for the QL (I think it was SPED but I'm not sure) and they seem to have been doing the actual design work. Occasionally, Italians with very little English would come and do some PCB design or prototyping for it. I remember the big day when the case and keyboard came in. There was also an unpopulated board I saw which was definitely a 680X0-based design. They decided not to proceed with the Futura because the risk was too great - the market was too small and the costs too high. Hope this helps... Dave PS: The name just came to me. Arnie Gardner was Tony's business partner.
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Dexter wrote: On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Bill Waugh wrote: Ok Dave here's a starter, I was one of the folks that ordered a Futura, possibly it might have been a dead end job considering the hardware that come since but my question is this - Who was Maria Futura ( I may have the name a bit wrong ) she seemed to be in charge of the admin side of things, I thought the name being similar or the same as the computer was a bit funny. My boss was Tony Ianiri, and his partner was Maria. There was also a man whos name I just can't remember. He was about 45 and raced motorcycles. I remember the Futura project too. Nothing was actually designed in the UK. Tony was italian, and closely related to an italian company that was making budget memory for the QL (I think it was SPED but I'm not sure) and they seem to have been doing the actual design work. Occasionally, Italians with very little English would come and do some PCB design or prototyping for it. I remember the big day when the case and keyboard came in. There was also an unpopulated board I saw which was definitely a 680X0-based design. They decided not to proceed with the Futura because the risk was too great - the market was too small and the costs too high. Hope this helps... Dave PS: The name just came to me. Arnie Gardner was Tony's business partner. Yep I spoke to Arnie once or twice, I think the Italian keyboard was SPEM, they flogged them off eventually as they fitted straight into the QL connector and I bought one it was pretty good. IIRC Arnie bemoaned the fact that Tony kept changing the spec and I do recall him (Arnie) telling me that the Italian parent company had pulled the plug ( can't recall the Italian companies name, definitely was not Sandy ) All the best - Bill
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(Is there a FAQ? Or is the answer to this question in the FAQ I should *obviously* have read? ;) There's a QL-FAQ, but not much written about Sandy and teh Futura... More Futura infos requested, even this system design is outdated now.
