-Original Message-
From: Lupu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:50 AM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
Released time has several problems in addition to trapping the left-
behind students in a dead hour (Rick, high
What happened to Sunday School? Parents don't bring their kids there
so they churches want the captive audience. When I was a kid we had
Wednesday School -- Wed. morning release time -- with about double
the attendance as at Sunday School -- even worse ratio during hunting
season, of course.
If the state sponsored chess or other meaningful activity during the release time, then there would be parents complaining about discrimination because their students who were released for religious training are missing out on some instruction. If the state continued classroom instruction, then
Everything Michael Newsome says could be true. But why the persistent failure
to account for the overwhelming competitive advantage obtained through the 1-2
punch of compulsory attendance (not compulsory learning or compulsory
education, we should note) and confiscatory taxation, without
There was a time -- say, 1776 or so -- when there was widespread agreement
that education was a virtue of itself.
Yes, as in Thomas Jefferson's plan for public education in Virginia. A plan
that placed the burden of funding education on the public, the education of
every child, all the way
In a message dated 2/18/2005 11:42:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
A
theistic democrat could believe that human beings are made in the image and
likeness of God, and that they deserve to be loved because of this and in
specific cases are loved because God is
And I will end by saying that the non-theists in one sense are right
about lack of intelligibility (most theists do not really claim to
understand what God is, thus the term mystery); so one person's lack of
intelligibility is another person's mystery. Yes, the problem of
suffering is real,
It seems to me that if there is a problem with modern
released time programs, the problem is not with the
releasing of students whose parents request a release,
but rather in not providing something to do for the
kids whose parents don't wish them to be released.
I don't know the facts of the
]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Duncan
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:19 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
It seems to me that if there is a problem with
modern
released time programs, the problem is not with
the
releasing of students
]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:19 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
It seems to me that if there is a problem with modern
released time programs, the problem is not with the
releasing of students whose
: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:13:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Rick Duncan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject:RE: 21st Century Zorach
Send reply to: Law Religion issues for Law
In a message dated 2/18/2005 1:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In addition to Marty and Marc's point about the lack of constructive programs for students who do not participate, isn't there also a problem with release time programs that are limited exclusively to
ase that
McConnell conceded would be unconstitutional.
- Original Message -
From: "Lupu" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Law Religion issues for Law Academics"
religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:49
PM
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
Released tim
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't there something to be said for accommodation? Here comes
big old bully State, grabs parents by the lapels, and threatens life,
liberty and property unless child is put in a school setting from age 5
to as late as age 20, for as many as 7 to 8 hours a
Alan is correct about the need for non-religious alternatives. Good
News was premised, in part, on the fact that the immediately
after-school time was available to a host of groups (though no other
group had exercised that right). As Doug recommended, release time
should occur after the
;lack[s]skills necessary to do
so."
- Original Message -
From: "Scarberry, Mark" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'Law Religion issues for Law Academics'"
religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:06
PM
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
A possible a
Accommodation is only a legitimate argument or concern if the state
is creating a burden on religious freedom. But there is no conflict
between compulsory education and religious education, because
there are ample days and hours in which parents are free to
educate their children in the ways
Ed, would you reconsider the form of your question. I support toleration and accommodation of religious needs of students penned in the government schools/corrals. In the Islamic context, I have publicly expressed the view that schools should accommodate students' percieved need for time to stop
I would be very receptive to an argument, under the
Free Speech Clause and the principle of equal access,
that dissenting parents should have the right to
demand that their children be released to take part in
any type of released time program, whether religious
or secular.
The solution to the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ed, would you reconsider the form of your question. I support
toleration and accommodation of religious needs of students penned in
the government schools/corrals. In the Islamic context, I have
publicly expressed the view that schools should accommodate
In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:51:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If it is
a constitutionally permissible policy judgment by government actors to take
into accountthe religious needs of the people, then as long as
accommodation is made for all religious
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
A small clarification: The
Constitution does not, as such, prohibit the teaching in publicschools of
most values that are central to, and derived
from,religion.See, e.g., Bowen v. Kendrick, 487 U.S. at 612-13,
621. What it prohibits arespecifically religious
Century Zorach
A small clarification: The Constitution does not,
as such, prohibit the
teaching in public schools of most values that are
central to, and derived
from, religion. See, e.g., Bowen v. Kendrick, 487
U.S. at 612-13, 621.
What it prohibits are specifically religious
it.)
Mark S. Scarberry
Pepperdine University School of Law
-Original Message-
From: Marty Lederman
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:38 AM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
for Law Academics
religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
Subject:Re: 21st Century Zorach
Send reply to: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
mailto:religionlaw-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:religionlaw-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Suppose instead
political agenda that finds favor
with a majority of the Court. Each takes care of the other in its own
fashion.
-Original Message-
From: Steven Green [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:26 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: 21st Century Zorach
Yes, it does seem a bit ridiculous to have released time chess club or swimming lessons as opposed to 4 p.m. Thursday afternoon chess club or swimming lessons and likewise for sectarian out-of-school activities.
Frances R. A. Paterson, J.D., Ed.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Educational
PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
Accommodation is only a legitimate argument or concern if the state
is creating a burden on religious freedom. But there is no conflict
between compulsory education and religious education, because
there are ample
Academics
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
Accommodation is only a legitimate argument or concern if the state
is creating a burden on religious freedom. But there is no conflict
between compulsory education and religious education, because
there are ample days and hours in which parents
I, of course, agree with Tom that true school choice
is the real solution to the culture wars being fought
in government schools. Only school choice affirms
religious liberty, freedon of thought and belief, and
tolerance for all children. And only it avoids all
captive audience issues.
But I
In a message dated 2/18/2005 3:19:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
loving others because
of God's love for you and because God loves them as well, etc.
I find Mark's remark
to be committed to an instrumental love of others, a love deriving from
the relationship
There was a time -- say, 1776 or so -- when there was widespread agreement that education was a virtue of itself. There is probably still widespread agreement that literature, math, geography and history are useful, and there's no inherent reason kids who don't participate in released-time
Mark's perspective is not the only theistic perspective. A theistic
democrat could believe that human beings are made in the image and
likeness of God, and that they deserve to be loved because of this and
in specific cases are loved because God is seen in them, i.e., as a part
of their
ean Keeton St.
Austin, TX 78705
512-232-1341
(phone)
512-471-6988
(fax)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty
LedermanSent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:09 PMTo: Law
Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: 21st Century
Zorach
Dahlia Lithwick in Slate
Dahlia Lithwick in Slate on current released-time
programs in Virginia and elsewhere: http://slate.msn.com/id/2113611/.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
recently upheld a New York released time program, on the authority of
Zorach, even though the children remaining in the
Especially under the state regulations supporting the No Child Left Behind Act, any program that leaves kids twiddling thumbs instead of taking AP biology is probably suspect, and perhaps illegal.
When I attended schools in Utah, which had probably the most extensive released time programs, the
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