Happy Festivus!
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFONSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFONSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT Dec 16, 1:58 PM EST Festivus pole proposed at Green Bay City Hall Advertisement GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) -- The putting up of a nativity scene at Green Bay's City Hall has prompted a tongue-in-cheek request from a suburban man for permission to display a Festivus pole on the overhang of the building's northwest entrance. The Festivus holiday created by author Daniel O'Keefe during the 1970s and popularized by comedian Jerry Seinfeld two decades later is celebrated by some both in earnest and jest on Dec. 23. The request by Sean Ryan of Allouez was made during the weekend after Green Bay City Council president Chad Fradette received the go-ahead last week from the city's advisory committee to install a nativity display at City Hall. Fradette said he proposed the display in response to criticism of a nativity display at a city park in nearby Peshtigo. A practicing Catholic who would prefer to see no religious displays at a government office, Ryan said his request to put up an undecorated six foot aluminum pole was intended to showcase how deciding what religions to include in the display can turn to the absurd. I was turning over how extreme things could get and how loosely things could get interpreted, Ryan said. The real feat of strength would be for the mayor to stand up and say this is absurd, Ryan added. Let us keep nativity scenes where they belong in the churches, in our homes and in our hearts. On Friday, a Wiccan pentacle was put up at the Green Bay City Hall consisting of an evergreen wreath encircling a gold five-pointed star. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons. But variations of the pentacle not accepted by Wiccans have been used in horror movies as a sign of the devil. Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said items besides the nativity scene to be displayed need to associated with a religion, and the Festivus pole is just pop culture. This is kind of making a laughing matter of something that's rather serious, he said. The mayor said silly antics would not help resolve the questions facing the City Council on Tuesday, when it is scheduled to take up the matter. The mayor said he plans to forward some preliminary guidelines to the council Monday, including a limit on the time period for the displays and how to determine if a display is representative of a religion. This isn't an area that we have a lot of expertise, Schmitt said. --- Information from: Green Bay Press-Gazette, http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com === Buy your Festivus Pole at http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: The Impaler's Wall
I'd vote for him. I defer to the wisdom of others here on the Constitutional question. I guess we've entered the silly season. Susan Will Linden wrote: Since people are worrying about the right having the nerve to extol their own religion(s), I note that I got no reactions to this one back in January, so i post it again:: Net.gossip is now giving its attention to Sharkey the Impaler announcing that he is running for governor of Minnesota as the Vampyre's Witches and Pagans Party. (Any pagans present go yell at him, not me... http://johnathonforgovernor.us), with a platform which calls for the public impalement of convicted terrorists. I found on reading his agenda that he proposes to erect the Wall of Religious Beliefs in the Capital. This wall will have everything from the Wiccan Rede to the 10 Commandments. So, is this project considered sufficiently nondiscriminatory? Or would it be assailed as an establishment of religion, as opposed to irreligion? Or does the aim of extolling religious freedom constitute an overriding secular purpose? ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Happy Festivus!
I think Green Bay has hit upon the ideal solution to the annual battles over nativity scenes on public property. I think the court can fix the problem by declaring two things: 1. the government cannot fund such displays. 2. if a private group is allowed to put up a display for their religious holiday, then the government has created a limited public forum and all groups must be allowed equal access to put up their own. No more battles over whether a given display has a sufficient number of secular symbols mixed in to dilute the message of endorsement. No more battles over what constitutes a secular symbol, e.g. a menorah or a star and crescent as in the NY city school case. No more problems with endorsement of any kind because every display is privately owned and maintained and all private groups have equal access. Problem solved. Thoughts? Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:26 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Happy Festivus! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFON SECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFO NSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT Dec 16, 1:58 PM EST Festivus pole proposed at Green Bay City Hall Advertisement GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) -- The putting up of a nativity scene at Green Bay's City Hall has prompted a tongue-in-cheek request from a suburban man for permission to display a Festivus pole on the overhang of the building's northwest entrance. The Festivus holiday created by author Daniel O'Keefe during the 1970s and popularized by comedian Jerry Seinfeld two decades later is celebrated by some both in earnest and jest on Dec. 23. The request by Sean Ryan of Allouez was made during the weekend after Green Bay City Council president Chad Fradette received the go-ahead last week from the city's advisory committee to install a nativity display at City Hall. Fradette said he proposed the display in response to criticism of a nativity display at a city park in nearby Peshtigo. A practicing Catholic who would prefer to see no religious displays at a government office, Ryan said his request to put up an undecorated six foot aluminum pole was intended to showcase how deciding what religions to include in the display can turn to the absurd. I was turning over how extreme things could get and how loosely things could get interpreted, Ryan said. The real feat of strength would be for the mayor to stand up and say this is absurd, Ryan added. Let us keep nativity scenes where they belong in the churches, in our homes and in our hearts. On Friday, a Wiccan pentacle was put up at the Green Bay City Hall consisting of an evergreen wreath encircling a gold five-pointed star. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons. But variations of the pentacle not accepted by Wiccans have been used in horror movies as a sign of the devil. Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said items besides the nativity scene to be displayed need to associated with a religion, and the Festivus pole is just pop culture. This is kind of making a laughing matter of something that's rather serious, he said. The mayor said silly antics would not help resolve the questions facing the City Council on Tuesday, when it is scheduled to take up the matter. The mayor said he plans to forward some preliminary guidelines to the council Monday, including a limit on the time period for the displays and how to determine if a display is representative of a religion. This isn't an area that we have a lot of expertise, Schmitt said. --- Information from: Green Bay Press-Gazette, http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com === Buy your Festivus Pole at http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Happy Festivus!
Suppose a group wants to put up a display that's not associated with any religion or anti-religion? Advertising, for example? Susan Ed Brayton wrote: I think Green Bay has hit upon the ideal solution to the annual battles over nativity scenes on public property. I think the court can fix the problem by declaring two things: 1. the government cannot fund such displays. 2. if a private group is allowed to put up a display for their religious holiday, then the government has created a limited public forum and all groups must be allowed equal access to put up their own. No more battles over whether a given display has a sufficient number of secular symbols mixed in to dilute the message of endorsement. No more battles over what constitutes a secular symbol, e.g. a menorah or a star and crescent as in the NY city school case. No more problems with endorsement of any kind because every display is privately owned and maintained and all private groups have equal access. Problem solved. Thoughts? Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:26 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Happy Festivus! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFON SECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFO NSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT Dec 16, 1:58 PM EST Festivus pole proposed at Green Bay City Hall Advertisement GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) -- The putting up of a nativity scene at Green Bay's City Hall has prompted a tongue-in-cheek request from a suburban man for permission to display a Festivus pole on the overhang of the building's northwest entrance. The Festivus holiday created by author Daniel O'Keefe during the 1970s and popularized by comedian Jerry Seinfeld two decades later is celebrated by some both in earnest and jest on Dec. 23. The request by Sean Ryan of Allouez was made during the weekend after Green Bay City Council president Chad Fradette received the go-ahead last week from the city's advisory committee to install a nativity display at City Hall. Fradette said he proposed the display in response to criticism of a nativity display at a city park in nearby Peshtigo. A practicing Catholic who would prefer to see no religious displays at a government office, Ryan said his request to put up an undecorated six foot aluminum pole was intended to showcase how deciding what religions to include in the display can turn to the absurd. I was turning over how extreme things could get and how loosely things could get interpreted, Ryan said. The real feat of strength would be for the mayor to stand up and say this is absurd, Ryan added. Let us keep nativity scenes where they belong in the churches, in our homes and in our hearts. On Friday, a Wiccan pentacle was put up at the Green Bay City Hall consisting of an evergreen wreath encircling a gold five-pointed star. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons. But variations of the pentacle not accepted by Wiccans have been used in horror movies as a sign of the devil. Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said items besides the nativity scene to be displayed need to associated with a religion, and the Festivus pole is just pop culture. This is kind of making a laughing matter of something that's rather serious, he said. The mayor said silly antics would not help resolve the questions facing the City Council on Tuesday, when it is scheduled to take up the matter. The mayor said he plans to forward some preliminary guidelines to the council Monday, including a limit on the time period for the displays and how to determine if a display is representative of a religion. This isn't an area that we have a lot of expertise, Schmitt said. --- Information from: Green Bay Press-Gazette, http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com === Buy your Festivus Pole at http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to
RE: Happy Festivus!
Then the answer is no as it does not fit the purpose of this limited public forum. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:33 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Happy Festivus! Suppose a group wants to put up a display that's not associated with any religion or anti-religion? Advertising, for example? Susan Ed Brayton wrote: I think Green Bay has hit upon the ideal solution to the annual battles over nativity scenes on public property. I think the court can fix the problem by declaring two things: 1. the government cannot fund such displays. 2. if a private group is allowed to put up a display for their religious holiday, then the government has created a limited public forum and all groups must be allowed equal access to put up their own. No more battles over whether a given display has a sufficient number of secular symbols mixed in to dilute the message of endorsement. No more battles over what constitutes a secular symbol, e.g. a menorah or a star and crescent as in the NY city school case. No more problems with endorsement of any kind because every display is privately owned and maintained and all private groups have equal access. Problem solved. Thoughts? Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:26 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Happy Festivus! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFON SECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFO NSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT Dec 16, 1:58 PM EST Festivus pole proposed at Green Bay City Hall Advertisement GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) -- The putting up of a nativity scene at Green Bay's City Hall has prompted a tongue-in-cheek request from a suburban man for permission to display a Festivus pole on the overhang of the building's northwest entrance. The Festivus holiday created by author Daniel O'Keefe during the 1970s and popularized by comedian Jerry Seinfeld two decades later is celebrated by some both in earnest and jest on Dec. 23. The request by Sean Ryan of Allouez was made during the weekend after Green Bay City Council president Chad Fradette received the go-ahead last week from the city's advisory committee to install a nativity display at City Hall. Fradette said he proposed the display in response to criticism of a nativity display at a city park in nearby Peshtigo. A practicing Catholic who would prefer to see no religious displays at a government office, Ryan said his request to put up an undecorated six foot aluminum pole was intended to showcase how deciding what religions to include in the display can turn to the absurd. I was turning over how extreme things could get and how loosely things could get interpreted, Ryan said. The real feat of strength would be for the mayor to stand up and say this is absurd, Ryan added. Let us keep nativity scenes where they belong in the churches, in our homes and in our hearts. On Friday, a Wiccan pentacle was put up at the Green Bay City Hall consisting of an evergreen wreath encircling a gold five-pointed star. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons. But variations of the pentacle not accepted by Wiccans have been used in horror movies as a sign of the devil. Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said items besides the nativity scene to be displayed need to associated with a religion, and the Festivus pole is just pop culture. This is kind of making a laughing matter of something that's rather serious, he said. The mayor said silly antics would not help resolve the questions facing the City Council on Tuesday, when it is scheduled to take up the matter. The mayor said he plans to forward some preliminary guidelines to the council Monday, including a limit on the time period for the displays and how to determine if a display is representative of a religion. This isn't an area that we have a lot of expertise, Schmitt said. --- Information from: Green Bay Press-Gazette, http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com === Buy your Festivus Pole at http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can
Meditation room in community college
Any thoughts on the story? My sense is that this would be permissible if the room were open to all student groups (or at least all student groups that are religious or antireligious), even if it turned out that other groups had no inclination to use it. But I'd love to hear what others think. Thanks, Eugene http://www.startribune.com/featuredColumns/12551256.html ... Last week, I visited a Muslim place of worship. A schedule for Islam's five daily prayers was posted at the entrance, near a sign requesting that shoes be removed. Inside, a barrier divided men's and women's prayer space, an arrow informed worshippers of the direction of Mecca, and literature urged women to cover their faces. Sound like a mosque? The place I'm describing is the meditation room at Normandale Community College, a 9,200-student public institution in Bloomington. Until recently, the room was the school's only usable racquetball court. College administrators converted the court into a meditation room when construction forced closure of the previous meditation room. A row of chest-high barriers splits the room into sex-segregated sections. In the smaller, enclosed area for women sits a pile of shawls and head-coverings. Literature titled Hijaab [covering] and Modesty was prominently placed there, instructing women on proper Islamic behavior. They should cover their faces and stay at home, it said, and their speech should not be such that it is heard. Enter into Islaam completely and accept all the rulings of Islaam, the tract read in part. It should not be that you accept what entertains your desires and leave what opposes your desires; this is from the manners of the Jews. [T]he Jews and the Christians are described as the enemies of Allaah's religion. The document adds: Remember that you will never succeed while you follow these people. A poster on the room's door advertised a local lecture on marriage from an Islamic perspective, with useful tips for marital harmony from the Prophet's ... life. Other fliers invited students to join the Normandale Islamic Forum, or participate in Ramadan celebrations. One thing was missing from the meditation room: evidence of any faith but Islam. No Bible, no crucifix, no Torah Despite the room's Islamic atmosphere, [Dean of Student Affairs Ralph] Anderson says it is open to everyone. ... ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Happy Festivus!
Doesn't such a limitation constitute favoring religion over non-religion? Ed Brayton wrote: Then the answer is no as it does not fit the purpose of this limited public forum. Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:33 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: Happy Festivus! Suppose a group wants to put up a display that's not associated with any religion or anti-religion? Advertising, for example? Susan Ed Brayton wrote: I think Green Bay has hit upon the ideal solution to the annual battles over nativity scenes on public property. I think the court can fix the problem by declaring two things: 1. the government cannot fund such displays. 2. if a private group is allowed to put up a display for their religious holiday, then the government has created a limited public forum and all groups must be allowed equal access to put up their own. No more battles over whether a given display has a sufficient number of secular symbols mixed in to dilute the message of endorsement. No more battles over what constitutes a secular symbol, e.g. a menorah or a star and crescent as in the NY city school case. No more problems with endorsement of any kind because every display is privately owned and maintained and all private groups have equal access. Problem solved. Thoughts? Ed Brayton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:26 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Happy Festivus! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFON SECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_FESTIVUS_NATIVITY_WIOL-?SITE=WIFO NSECTION=HOMETEMPLATE=DEFAULT Dec 16, 1:58 PM EST Festivus pole proposed at Green Bay City Hall Advertisement GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) -- The putting up of a nativity scene at Green Bay's City Hall has prompted a tongue-in-cheek request from a suburban man for permission to display a Festivus pole on the overhang of the building's northwest entrance. The Festivus holiday created by author Daniel O'Keefe during the 1970s and popularized by comedian Jerry Seinfeld two decades later is celebrated by some both in earnest and jest on Dec. 23. The request by Sean Ryan of Allouez was made during the weekend after Green Bay City Council president Chad Fradette received the go-ahead last week from the city's advisory committee to install a nativity display at City Hall. Fradette said he proposed the display in response to criticism of a nativity display at a city park in nearby Peshtigo. A practicing Catholic who would prefer to see no religious displays at a government office, Ryan said his request to put up an undecorated six foot aluminum pole was intended to showcase how deciding what religions to include in the display can turn to the absurd. I was turning over how extreme things could get and how loosely things could get interpreted, Ryan said. The real feat of strength would be for the mayor to stand up and say this is absurd, Ryan added. Let us keep nativity scenes where they belong in the churches, in our homes and in our hearts. On Friday, a Wiccan pentacle was put up at the Green Bay City Hall consisting of an evergreen wreath encircling a gold five-pointed star. Wicca is a nature-based religion based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons. But variations of the pentacle not accepted by Wiccans have been used in horror movies as a sign of the devil. Green Bay Mayor Jim Schmitt said items besides the nativity scene to be displayed need to associated with a religion, and the Festivus pole is just pop culture. This is kind of making a laughing matter of something that's rather serious, he said. The mayor said silly antics would not help resolve the questions facing the City Council on Tuesday, when it is scheduled to take up the matter. The mayor said he plans to forward some preliminary guidelines to the council Monday, including a limit on the time period for the displays and how to determine if a display is representative of a religion. This isn't an area that we have a lot of expertise, Schmitt said. --- Information from: Green Bay Press-Gazette, http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com === Buy your Festivus Pole at http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm http://www.festivuspoles.com/pages/Festivuspoles.htm ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent
An email of possible relevance
SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! [cid:008801c83818$3d7c0e50$01dd174b@homeu0k7o5vyn8]http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=102287rui=83657392 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Meditation room in community college
It seems to fit uneasily into the Lamb's Chapel trilogy and hard to reconcile with either Lemon neutrality or notions of nonendorsement. Maybe it's an tougher case if the Islamic literature is not permitted in the room when Muslim students are not using it (or, perhaps, if other literature is also permitted), but the school hasn't simply made a facility available for religious uses, it has constructed the space to accommodate use by one particular religion. If you are willing to permit this, I don't know why you also wouldn't permit modification of a room to include an altar, baptismal font or even a crucifix. Unless it outfits other rooms for other faiths, I would imagine that a court would find that the modification of the room and the enforcement of rules (the removal of shoes) that mark it as an Islamic space lack a secular purpose and advance Islam. I would expect a judge to conclude that a reasonable observer would conclude that the school has endorsed Islam. The problem here is not what permitting Islamic worship but acting in a way that marks the space as one for Islamic worship. I am not a fan of either Lemon or nonendorsement but that's how I'd guess this would sort out. Rick Esenberg Visiting Assistant Professor of Law Marquette University Law School Sensenbrenner Hall 1103 W. Wisconsin Avenue Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53201 (o) 414-288-6908 (m)414-213-3957 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:14 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Meditation room in community college Any thoughts on the story? My sense is that this would be permissible if the room were open to all student groups (or at least all student groups that are religious or antireligious), even if it turned out that other groups had no inclination to use it. But I'd love to hear what others think. Thanks, Eugene http://www.startribune.com/featuredColumns/12551256.html ... Last week, I visited a Muslim place of worship. A schedule for Islam's five daily prayers was posted at the entrance, near a sign requesting that shoes be removed. Inside, a barrier divided men's and women's prayer space, an arrow informed worshippers of the direction of Mecca, and literature urged women to cover their faces. Sound like a mosque? The place I'm describing is the meditation room at Normandale Community College, a 9,200-student public institution in Bloomington. Until recently, the room was the school's only usable racquetball court. College administrators converted the court into a meditation room when construction forced closure of the previous meditation room. A row of chest-high barriers splits the room into sex-segregated sections. In the smaller, enclosed area for women sits a pile of shawls and head-coverings. Literature titled Hijaab [covering] and Modesty was prominently placed there, instructing women on proper Islamic behavior. They should cover their faces and stay at home, it said, and their speech should not be such that it is heard. Enter into Islaam completely and accept all the rulings of Islaam, the tract read in part. It should not be that you accept what entertains your desires and leave what opposes your desires; this is from the manners of the Jews. [T]he Jews and the Christians are described as the enemies of Allaah's religion. The document adds: Remember that you will never succeed while you follow these people. A poster on the room's door advertised a local lecture on marriage from an Islamic perspective, with useful tips for marital harmony from the Prophet's ... life. Other fliers invited students to join the Normandale Islamic Forum, or participate in Ramadan celebrations. One thing was missing from the meditation room: evidence of any faith but Islam. No Bible, no crucifix, no Torah Despite the room's Islamic atmosphere, [Dean of Student Affairs Ralph] Anderson says it is open to everyone. ... ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly)
Re: An email of possible relevance
Most quotes on most memorials I see are edited in some fashion or other -- if nothing else then by selection of what to include or not include, where to start and where to end, and so on. I think the exception is the Lincoln Memorial with the full Gettysburg Address and full 2d Inaugural address -- but I've not checked them word for word. Even the 10 commandments are edited when chiseled or painted or printed -- mostly they put them up in English in the U.S., last I checked. And then there is the problem of why stop at 10? What about the other 40 or 100 or however you want to count it? And which version does one use? Nonetheless, there is something particularly noticeable about this particular excision -- its sensitivity to the establishment the putting in stone the endorsement of religion by the President. While I would not be upset with a decision to have included the words in the first place, I am more pleased at the avoidance of endorsement as being a better showing of separation. Medium matters, perhaps. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. Mark Twain ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: An email of possible relevance
This is apparently a myth. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/memorial.asp; among other things, it includes what appears to be a photo of the inscription, which actually quotes a different line from the speech -- a line that's not followed by so help us God. Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ucla. edu Subject: An email of possible relevance SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! Free Animations for your email - By IncrediMail! Click Here! http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=102287rui=83657392 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: An email of possible relevance
One of the seemingly infinite number of circulated emails full of feigned outrage and false claims on this issue that litter our inboxes. This list is the last place I would have thought I'd see one forwarded. Ed Brayton From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:26 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: An email of possible relevance This is apparently a myth. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/memorial.asp; among other things, it includes what appears to be a photo of the inscription, which actually quotes a different line from the speech -- a line that's not followed by so help us God. Eugene _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ucla. edu Subject: An email of possible relevance SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=102287rui=83657392 Free Animations for your email - By IncrediMail! Click Here! _ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Meditation room in community college
The (private) college my son attended erected a meditation room in lieu of a chapel, but it was completely bare of permanent fixtures, other than carpeting (a good idea if you want to go barefoot in northern Ohio). Any furniture or other props had to be moved in and out for any particular worship occasion. Otherwise, it was left bare for general meditative use. No Muslim students (of whom there were some, and who were consulted when the space was being designed) objected or requested special treatment, and arranged themselves for formal worship as they saw fit. Being private, of course, this college could do as it pleased, but this was, I thought, an elegant solution to the each faith its own chapel argument, as well as a reasonable means of conserving resources. This approach is permissible in a private institution, but I would think it would be required in a public one if the each faith its own chapel syndrome is to be avoided and public funds not spent to promote particular sects. Having permanent fixtures and omnipresent literature applicable to only one religion does indeed make this Bloomington room a mosque, and to say that others may go in (may they really? I had thought Islam doesn't permit infidels to attend services) is totally disingenuous. Anyone entering such a space would be pervasively impressed with his or her status as an interloper in someone else's religion. That is to say, it establishes a coercive environment as much as having a permanent crucifix and stations of the cross would do. Even if you ignore Lemon, this arrangement flunks whatever coercion test is floated to take its place. On Dec 17, 2007 1:13 PM, Esenberg, Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to fit uneasily into the Lamb's Chapel trilogy and hard to reconcile with either Lemon neutrality or notions of nonendorsement. Maybe it's an tougher case if the Islamic literature is not permitted in the room when Muslim students are not using it (or, perhaps, if other literature is also permitted), but the school hasn't simply made a facility available for religious uses, it has constructed the space to accommodate use by one particular religion. If you are willing to permit this, I don't know why you also wouldn't permit modification of a room to include an altar, baptismal font or even a crucifix. Unless it outfits other rooms for other faiths, I would imagine that a court would find that the modification of the room and the enforcement of rules (the removal of shoes) that mark it as an Islamic space lack a secular purpose and advance Islam. I would expect a judge to conclude that a reasonable observer would conclude that the school has endorsed Islam. The problem here is not what permitting Islamic worship but acting in a way that marks the space as one for Islamic worship. I am not a fan of either Lemon or nonendorsement but that's how I'd guess this would sort out. Rick Esenberg Visiting Assistant Professor of Law Marquette University Law School Sensenbrenner Hall 1103 W. Wisconsin Avenue Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53201 (o) 414-288-6908 (m)414-213-3957 [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:14 AM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Meditation room in community college Any thoughts on the story? My sense is that this would be permissible if the room were open to all student groups (or at least all student groups that are religious or antireligious), even if it turned out that other groups had no inclination to use it. But I'd love to hear what others think. Thanks, Eugene http://www.startribune.com/featuredColumns/12551256.html ... Last week, I visited a Muslim place of worship. A schedule for Islam's five daily prayers was posted at the entrance, near a sign requesting that shoes be removed. Inside, a barrier divided men's and women's prayer space, an arrow informed worshippers of the direction of Mecca, and literature urged women to cover their faces. Sound like a mosque? The place I'm describing is the meditation room at Normandale Community College, a 9,200-student public institution in Bloomington. Until recently, the room was the school's only usable racquetball court. College administrators converted the court into a meditation room when construction forced closure of the previous meditation room. A row of chest-high barriers splits the room into sex-segregated sections. In the smaller, enclosed area for women sits a pile of shawls and head-coverings. Literature titled Hijaab [covering] and Modesty was prominently placed there, instructing women on proper Islamic behavior. They should cover their faces and stay at home, it said, and their speech should not be such that it is heard. Enter into Islaam completely and accept all the rulings of Islaam, the
Re: An email of possible relevance
Agreed, Ed. Indeed, that is why I didn't even check as I usually would! On Dec 17, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Ed Brayton wrote: One of the seemingly infinite number of circulated emails full of feigned outrage and false claims on this issue that litter our inboxes. This list is the last place I would have thought I’d see one forwarded. Ed Brayton From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:religionlaw- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:26 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: An email of possible relevance This is apparently a myth. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/ military/memorial.asp; among other things, it includes what appears to be a photo of the inscription, which actually quotes a different line from the speech -- a line that's not followed by so help us God. Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:religionlaw- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ucla. edu Subject: An email of possible relevance SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read thewords President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flagsof Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyoneforgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. Mark Twain ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe,
Re: An email of possible relevance
I have heard (hearsay) someone say that FDR gave two speeches that day one with so help us God. and one without. The one with So help us God.' being the one broadcast and the one we hear every December 7. Was there other one to Congress? Alan Armstrong On Dec 17, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Gibbens, Daniel G. wrote: SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: An email of possible relevance
I have noticed that this type of Email frequently ends with something like...
If you agree, pass this on. If not,
May God Bless YOU!
Or
If you agree, pass this on. If not,
then delete!
To me, this is the most infuriating portion of the statement. What message does
this send? It is the ultimate statement of those who would establish a
theocracy and the penultimate reason for the existence of this forum.
We will suffer no disagreement or discussion. We are right by divine edict.
It's absurd.
Ed Brayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape
{behavior:url(#default#VML);} One of the seemingly infinite
number of circulated emails full of feigned outrage and false claims on this
issue that litter our inboxes. This list is the last place I would have thought
Id see one forwarded
-
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To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.
Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
messages to others.
Re: An email of possible relevance
The BBC hired a guy to read some of Churchill's speeches, but to the best of my knowledge, if you've got audio of Roosevelt, it's live. By 1941, he lacked a lot of the vigor he had eight years earlier. Doing speeches twice is unlikely. From the FDR Library, here is audio of the speech (it's almost 8 minutes): http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/real/decwarsp.rm Here's the text from the FDR Library: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/decwart.html That's the one Congress got. Ed Darrell Dallas Alan Leigh Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have heard (hearsay) someone say that FDR gave two speeches that day one with so help us God. and one without. The one with So help us God.' being the one broadcast and the one we hear every December 7. Was there other one to Congress? Alan Armstrong On Dec 17, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Gibbens, Daniel G. wrote: SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note
Re: alarming new law?
Would a resolution for Secular Humanism violate the Constitution? No need to answer - I've been reading Daniel Conkle's book, and not only am I enjoying it, I'm learning that this question cannot have a simple answer. S Richard Dougherty wrote: Well, maybe you will; see below. Congress does this sort of thing regularly. (Haven't seen one for atheists yet, but I can't keep up.) Marty: Do you think the whereas you cited that was left out was omitted because it was too over the top, or because the wording of it might actually divide Christians? (I'm thinking of the specific reference to the Bible especially.) Richard J. Dougherty Resolution on Buddhism (Vietnam): http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/Archive/2003/Dec/01-499319.html Resolution on Judaism: http://www.350th.org/commission/Jewish%20350th%20Res%20passes%20Joint%2011-24.pdf Resolution on Islam: http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-englishx=20071003165444mlenuhret0.9762384m=October http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-englishx=20071003165444mlenuhret0.9762384m=October On Ramadan: http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=14293 -Original Message- From: Jean Dudley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent 12/15/2007 11:12:13 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu Subject: Re: alarming new law? It's not a law, it's a non-binding resolution. Legally, it's pabulum. Still, it's a waste of the House's time, IMO. What effects it has on society at large is up for speculation. I see it as indicative of a wider mindset that Christians are persecuted here and the world over. Of course they are; As are Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists, and every other cultural subset. Susan, you and I will not live to see a resolution like this passed for any other religion in the good ol' US of A. Jean On Dec 15, 2007, at Sat, Dec 15, 8:49 PM, Susan Freiman wrote: This just came to me from an atheists' list. Is it true? Susan ~~` *PRESS RELEASE* *FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE* *The Council for Secular Humanism Chides Congress for Disrespecting Religions * (December 14, 2007) -- Experts from the Council for Secular Humanism noted with alarm the passage of H. Res. 847 in the House of Representatives. This unnecessary, unwarranted, and bigoted law, under the misleading title Recognizing the Importance of Christm as and the Christian Faith passed the House with overwhelming bipartisan support It effectively undermines the sort of religious tolerance necessary in these changing times. Just days ago in the midst of the Jewish Festival of Lights, four Jewish men in New York City were attacked on the subway for replying to a group of ten people who wished them a Merry Christmas with a similar greeting: Happy Hanukkah. For this, these men were first insulted, then beaten. It was a Muslim man who came to their physical defense. The actions of the Congress, by passing the resolution and thus expressing preference to the Christian faith over all the others represented by the diverse population of these United States , encourages this sort of behavior. The First Amendment's guarantee of religious liberty, and of the nonestablishment of religion, was devised to create a secular state in which all religions would be equally tolerated and none given preference. The language of the House resolution effectively undermines the design of the Founders, and creates an atmosphere where non-Christians will continue to be targeted, treated like second-class citizens, and even become victims of violence like those four Jewish subway riders in New York . Paul Kurtz , CSH chair, stated, It is deplorable that in this day and age and in light of violence against religious minorities here in the United States that the Congress would stoke those flames with preferential language in support of a single religion. David Koepsell , CSH's executive director, noted, Te First Amendment Guarantee was designed to prevent the sort of religious intolerance that resulted in violence in Europe, and our Congress should respect the intent of the Founders. We call on the Congress to reject this resolution, to stand up for religious freedom, secularism, and pluralism, and to foster a climate in which all believers and nonbelievers alike are treated equally. __._,_.___ ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
