An email of possible relevance
SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! [cid:008801c83818$3d7c0e50$01dd174b@homeu0k7o5vyn8]http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=102287rui=83657392 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: An email of possible relevance
Most quotes on most memorials I see are edited in some fashion or other -- if nothing else then by selection of what to include or not include, where to start and where to end, and so on. I think the exception is the Lincoln Memorial with the full Gettysburg Address and full 2d Inaugural address -- but I've not checked them word for word. Even the 10 commandments are edited when chiseled or painted or printed -- mostly they put them up in English in the U.S., last I checked. And then there is the problem of why stop at 10? What about the other 40 or 100 or however you want to count it? And which version does one use? Nonetheless, there is something particularly noticeable about this particular excision -- its sensitivity to the establishment the putting in stone the endorsement of religion by the President. While I would not be upset with a decision to have included the words in the first place, I am more pleased at the avoidance of endorsement as being a better showing of separation. Medium matters, perhaps. Steve -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. Mark Twain ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: An email of possible relevance
This is apparently a myth. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/memorial.asp; among other things, it includes what appears to be a photo of the inscription, which actually quotes a different line from the speech -- a line that's not followed by so help us God. Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ucla. edu Subject: An email of possible relevance SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! Free Animations for your email - By IncrediMail! Click Here! http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=102287rui=83657392 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: An email of possible relevance
One of the seemingly infinite number of circulated emails full of feigned outrage and false claims on this issue that litter our inboxes. This list is the last place I would have thought I'd see one forwarded. Ed Brayton From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:26 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: An email of possible relevance This is apparently a myth. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/memorial.asp; among other things, it includes what appears to be a photo of the inscription, which actually quotes a different line from the speech -- a line that's not followed by so help us God. Eugene _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ucla. edu Subject: An email of possible relevance SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=102287rui=83657392 Free Animations for your email - By IncrediMail! Click Here! _ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: An email of possible relevance
Agreed, Ed. Indeed, that is why I didn't even check as I usually would! On Dec 17, 2007, at 1:43 PM, Ed Brayton wrote: One of the seemingly infinite number of circulated emails full of feigned outrage and false claims on this issue that litter our inboxes. This list is the last place I would have thought I’d see one forwarded. Ed Brayton From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:religionlaw- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:26 PM To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: An email of possible relevance This is apparently a myth. See http://www.snopes.com/politics/ military/memorial.asp; among other things, it includes what appears to be a photo of the inscription, which actually quotes a different line from the speech -- a line that's not followed by so help us God. Eugene From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:religionlaw- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gibbens, Daniel G. Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ucla. edu Subject: An email of possible relevance SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read thewords President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flagsof Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyoneforgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://iipsj.com/SDJ/ Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. Mark Twain ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe
Re: An email of possible relevance
I have heard (hearsay) someone say that FDR gave two speeches that day one with so help us God. and one without. The one with So help us God.' being the one broadcast and the one we hear every December 7. Was there other one to Congress? Alan Armstrong On Dec 17, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Gibbens, Daniel G. wrote: SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: An email of possible relevance
I have noticed that this type of Email frequently ends with something like...
If you agree, pass this on. If not,
May God Bless YOU!
Or
If you agree, pass this on. If not,
then delete!
To me, this is the most infuriating portion of the statement. What message does
this send? It is the ultimate statement of those who would establish a
theocracy and the penultimate reason for the existence of this forum.
We will suffer no disagreement or discussion. We are right by divine edict.
It's absurd.
Ed Brayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape
{behavior:url(#default#VML);} One of the seemingly infinite
number of circulated emails full of feigned outrage and false claims on this
issue that litter our inboxes. This list is the last place I would have thought
Id see one forwarded
-
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.___
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Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
messages to others.
Re: An email of possible relevance
The BBC hired a guy to read some of Churchill's speeches, but to the best of my knowledge, if you've got audio of Roosevelt, it's live. By 1941, he lacked a lot of the vigor he had eight years earlier. Doing speeches twice is unlikely. From the FDR Library, here is audio of the speech (it's almost 8 minutes): http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/real/decwarsp.rm Here's the text from the FDR Library: http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/decwart.html That's the one Congress got. Ed Darrell Dallas Alan Leigh Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have heard (hearsay) someone say that FDR gave two speeches that day one with so help us God. and one without. The one with So help us God.' being the one broadcast and the one we hear every December 7. Was there other one to Congress? Alan Armstrong On Dec 17, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Gibbens, Daniel G. wrote: SHALL WE HIRE A MONUMENT ENGRAVER TO GO TO ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY AND ADD THE MISSING WORDS ? A MESSAGE FROM AN APPALLED OBSERVER: Today I went to visit the new World War II Memorial in Washington , DC I got an unexpected history lesson Because I'm a baby boomer, I was one of the youngest in the crowd. Most were the age of my parents, Veterans of the greatest war, with their families. It was a beautiful day, and people were smiling and happy to be there. Hundreds of us milled around the memorial, reading the inspiring words of Eisenhower and Truman that are engraved there. On the Pacific side of the memorial, a group of us gathered to read the words President Roosevelt used to announce the attack on Pearl Harbor : Yesterday, December 7, 1941-- a date which will live in infamy--the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. One elderly woman read the words aloud: With confidence in our armed forces, with the abounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph. But as she read, she was suddenly turned angry. Wait a minute, she said, they left out the end of the quote.. They left out the most important part. Roosevelt ended the message with so help us God. Her husband said, You are probably right. We're not supposed to say things like that now. I know I'm right, she insisted. I remember the speech. The two looked dismayed, shook their heads sadly and walked away. Listening to their conversation, I thought to myself,Well, it has been over 50 years she's probably forgotten. But she had not forgotten. She was right. I went home and pulled out the book my book club is reading --- Flags of Our Fathers by James Bradley. It's all about the battle at Iwo Jima . I haven't gotten too far in the book. It's tough to read because it's a graphic description of the WWII battles in the Pacific. But right there it was on page 58. Roosevelt 's speech to the nation ends in so help us God. The people who edited out that part of the speech when they engraved it on the memorial could have fooled me. I was born after the war.! But they couldn't fool the people who were there. Roosevelt's words are engraved on their hearts. Now I ask: WHO GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF HISTORY? Send this around to your friends People need to know before everyone forgets. People today are trying to change the history of America by leaving God out of it, but the truth is, God has been a part of this nation, since the beginning. He still wants to be...and He always will be! If you agree, pass this on. If not, May God Bless YOU! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note
