Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"

[Mark Scarberry]

It could be helpful to learn just what powers the church police force would
have that private security guards would not. I don't know much about what a
private security guard might do (in general, or in particular under Alabama
law). May a private security guard detain a trespasser or vandal (for
example) for a short time before a city police officer or county deputy
sheriff arrives? Would the bill passed by the Alabama Senate give the
church police power to do more than that? Would it give the church police
power to use deadly force to apprehend a "suspect" under the same
circumstances that would justify a city police officer in doing it?

More generally, perhaps the bills specifies the rights and powers of the
church police force. In some states I suppose a private security guard
might be prohibited from carrying a handgun. A generally applicable law
allowing organizations to form an internal private security guard unit that
could carry handguns would be constitutional, I think.

Mark

Prof. Mark S. Scarberry
Pepperdine Univ. School of Law

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Ira Lupu <icl...@law.gwu.edu> wrote:

> I understand completely why a large institution or company, with persons
> and property to protect, would want a security force on the premises and
> under its control.  But ordinarily that is done through employees or
> private contractors, and the force is private. It does not have the power
> to arrest, or to detain for extended periods of time. So I repeat the
> question -- why would a megachurch (or a major corporation, re: operating
> its headquarters, which may also be much like a campus) want its police to
> have governmental authority?  (This is a question quite separate from
> religious favoritism or entanglement between religious and civil
> authority).
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Volokh, Eugene <vol...@law.ucla.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>The statute seems unconstitutional to me, likely based on 
>> *Kiryas
>> Joel*.  But the answer to the “why?” -- not that such a purpose would
>> necessarily make it constitutional -- might well be for the same reason
>> that many public school districts have their own police forces, though of
>> course this one would be much smaller.
>>
>>
>>
>>Eugene
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-bounces@li
>> sts.ucla.edu] *On Behalf Of *Ira Lupu
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:19 AM
>> *To:* Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
>> >
>> *Subject:* Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"
>>
>>
>>
>> Why would a large, predominantly white suburban congregation near
>> Birmingham need its own police force?
>>
>>
>>
>> For a related religion clause case, see State v. Celmer,
>> http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court
>> /1979/80-n-j-405-0.html (invalidating on First A grounds "a statutory
>> scheme which grants various municipal powers to the Ocean Grove Camp
>> Meeting Association of The United Methodist Church.")
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Paul Horwitz <phorw...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Here's a story from the AP. What do you (or, to use the proper and
>> incredibly useful grammar of my adopted state, "y'all") think? Is it a
>> quasi-Grendel's Den case or something of the sort? A direct Establishment
>> Clause problem insofar as it involves granting governmental or
>> quasi-governmental status to a church itself? A Kiryas Joel-type case
>> insofar as it grants a governmental privilege or status that might or might
>> not be granted to, say, a mosque or some other organization? (Not that I'm
>> crazy about that aspect of the Kiryas Joel ruling.) Or, insofar as state
>> law allows the state to empower various entities to have police forces, is
>> it constitutional because respectful of equal access to governmental
>> benefits or privileges?
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Horwitz
>>
>> University of Alabama School of Law
>>
>>
>>
>> MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) – The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to
>> form its own police force.
>>
>> Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church in
>> Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department.
>>
>> The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as
>> well as its more than 4,000 person congregation safe.
>>
>> Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church
>> officials could be 

Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"

[Ira Lupu]

I understand completely why a large institution or company, with persons
and property to protect, would want a security force on the premises and
under its control.  But ordinarily that is done through employees or
private contractors, and the force is private. It does not have the power
to arrest, or to detain for extended periods of time. So I repeat the
question -- why would a megachurch (or a major corporation, re: operating
its headquarters, which may also be much like a campus) want its police to
have governmental authority?  (This is a question quite separate from
religious favoritism or entanglement between religious and civil
authority).

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Volokh, Eugene <vol...@law.ucla.edu>
wrote:

>The statute seems unconstitutional to me, likely based on 
> *Kiryas
> Joel*.  But the answer to the “why?” -- not that such a purpose would
> necessarily make it constitutional -- might well be for the same reason
> that many public school districts have their own police forces, though of
> course this one would be much smaller.
>
>
>
>Eugene
>
>
>
> *From:* religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu [mailto:religionlaw-bounces@
> lists.ucla.edu] *On Behalf Of *Ira Lupu
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:19 AM
> *To:* Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"
>
>
>
> Why would a large, predominantly white suburban congregation near
> Birmingham need its own police force?
>
>
>
> For a related religion clause case, see State v. Celmer,
> http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-
> court/1979/80-n-j-405-0.html (invalidating on First A grounds "a
> statutory scheme which grants various municipal powers to the Ocean Grove
> Camp Meeting Association of The United Methodist Church.")
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Paul Horwitz <phorw...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Here's a story from the AP. What do you (or, to use the proper and
> incredibly useful grammar of my adopted state, "y'all") think? Is it a
> quasi-Grendel's Den case or something of the sort? A direct Establishment
> Clause problem insofar as it involves granting governmental or
> quasi-governmental status to a church itself? A Kiryas Joel-type case
> insofar as it grants a governmental privilege or status that might or might
> not be granted to, say, a mosque or some other organization? (Not that I'm
> crazy about that aspect of the Kiryas Joel ruling.) Or, insofar as state
> law allows the state to empower various entities to have police forces, is
> it constitutional because respectful of equal access to governmental
> benefits or privileges?
>
>
>
> Paul Horwitz
>
> University of Alabama School of Law
>
>
>
> MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) – The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to
> form its own police force.
>
> Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church in
> Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department.
>
> The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as
> well as its more than 4,000 person congregation safe.
>
> Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church
> officials could be used to cover up crimes.
>
> The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a
> police force, but never a church or non-school entity.
>
> Police experts have said such a police department would be unprecedented
> in the U.S.
>
> A similar bill is also scheduled to be debated in the House on Tuesday.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as
> private.  Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are
> posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or
> wrongly) forward the messages to others.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ira C. Lupu
> F. Elwood & Eleanor Davis Professor of Law, Emeritus
> George Washington University Law School
> 2000 H St., NW
> Washington, DC 20052
> 301-928-9178 (mobile, preferred)
>
> 202-994-7053 (office)
>
> Co-author (with Professor Robert Tuttle) of "Secular Government, Religious
> People" ( Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2014))
> My SSRN papers are here:
> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=181272#reg
>
> ___
> To post, send message to Religi

RE: State-sanctioned church "police force"

[Laycock, H Douglas (hdl5c)]

There is a North Carolina case a few years ago challenging the campus police 
forces of religiously affiliated universities as an Establishment Clause 
violation. The NC courts upheld the police forces. That looked more like equal 
treatment; this looks more like a special deal.

Douglas Laycock
Robert E. Scott Distinguished Professor of Law
University of Virginia Law School
580 Massie Road
Charlottesville, VA 22903
434-243-8546

From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu 
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Horwitz
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 11:04 AM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics 
Subject: State-sanctioned church "police force"


Here's a story from the AP. What do you (or, to use the proper and incredibly 
useful grammar of my adopted state, "y'all") think? Is it a quasi-Grendel's Den 
case or something of the sort? A direct Establishment Clause problem insofar as 
it involves granting governmental or quasi-governmental status to a church 
itself? A Kiryas Joel-type case insofar as it grants a governmental privilege 
or status that might or might not be granted to, say, a mosque or some other 
organization? (Not that I'm crazy about that aspect of the Kiryas Joel ruling.) 
Or, insofar as state law allows the state to empower various entities to have 
police forces, is it constitutional because respectful of equal access to 
governmental benefits or privileges?



Paul Horwitz

University of Alabama School of Law


MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to form 
its own police force.
Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church in 
Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department.
The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as well as 
its more than 4,000 person congregation safe.
Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church 
officials could be used to cover up crimes.
The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a police 
force, but never a church or non-school entity.
Police experts have said such a police department would be unprecedented in the 
U.S.
A similar bill is also scheduled to be debated in the House on Tuesday.

___
To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see 
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw

Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  
Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can 
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the 
messages to others.

Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"

[Paul Horwitz]

I assume, given the size of the congregation, that the church is more of a 
megachurch or campus, indeed much like a university campus with various 
buildings and activities, than a church that is largely deserted except around 
worship times. I can't say I know anything about the racial composition of the 
congregation, what activities take place on campus and whether there have been 
previous issues with crime or trespass, what the crime rate in the area is, or 
any other potentially relevant issues. I'm not sure what burden or level of 
justification the law requires before the legislature will consider granting 
this status, or for that matter when small universities, including those that 
are predominantly of one race, do or do not require their own police forces and 
how searching legislatures are in granting that status to university police at 
colleges of this size. Although I'm happy to hear otherwise, I'm not sure how 
relevant any of that is in any event. And while I'm sensitive to the stark 
visibility of such questions in my state (as opposed to states in which class 
and racial segregation, generally tied together, are emphatically present but 
less visible and not treated as interfering with somewhat illusory narratives 
about that state's residents as relatively virtuous, liberal, or welcoming of 
others; I'm sure if I wanted to live in an effectively gated community in, say, 
Cambridge, Berkeley, Austin, or Northern Virginia, it wouldn't be hard to do 
so), given that this appears to be a first-of-its-kind request in the state, 
I'm not inclined to draw conclusions about its broader social implications. I 
do think it raises EC questions regardless of any of those issues. But I do 
thank you, quite sincerely, for the cite.


Cheers,


PH



From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu <religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu> 
on behalf of Ira Lupu <icl...@law.gwu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 10:19 AM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"

Why would a large, predominantly white suburban congregation near Birmingham 
need its own police force?

For a related religion clause case, see State v. Celmer, 
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court/1979/80-n-j-405-0.html 
(invalidating on First A grounds "a statutory scheme which grants various 
municipal powers to the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of The United 
Methodist Church.")
[https://justatic.com/v/20170324144953/shared/images/social-media/law.jpg]<http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court/1979/80-n-j-405-0.html>

State v. Celmer :: 1979 :: Supreme Court of New Jersey 
...<http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court/1979/80-n-j-405-0.html>
law.justia.com
80 n.j. 405 (1979) 404 a.2d 1. state of new jersey, plaintiff-respondent, and 
ocean grove camp meeting association of the united methodist church, intervenor 
...



On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Paul Horwitz 
<phorw...@hotmail.com<mailto:phorw...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Here's a story from the AP. What do you (or, to use the proper and incredibly 
useful grammar of my adopted state, "y'all") think? Is it a quasi-Grendel's Den 
case or something of the sort? A direct Establishment Clause problem insofar as 
it involves granting governmental or quasi-governmental status to a church 
itself? A Kiryas Joel-type case insofar as it grants a governmental privilege 
or status that might or might not be granted to, say, a mosque or some other 
organization? (Not that I'm crazy about that aspect of the Kiryas Joel ruling.) 
Or, insofar as state law allows the state to empower various entities to have 
police forces, is it constitutional because respectful of equal access to 
governmental benefits or privileges?


Paul Horwitz

University of Alabama School of Law


MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) – The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to form 
its own police force.
Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church in 
Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department.
The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as well as 
its more than 4,000 person congregation safe.
Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church 
officials could be used to cover up crimes.
The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a police 
force, but never a church or non-school entity.
Police experts have said such a police department would be unprecedented in the 
U.S.
A similar bill is also scheduled to be debated in the House on Tuesday.


___
To post, send message to 
Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see 
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw

Please note that messages

RE: State-sanctioned church "police force"

[Volokh, Eugene]

   The statute seems unconstitutional to me, likely based on Kiryas 
Joel.  But the answer to the “why?” -- not that such a purpose would 
necessarily make it constitutional -- might well be for the same reason that 
many public school districts have their own police forces, though of course 
this one would be much smaller.

   Eugene

From: religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu 
[mailto:religionlaw-boun...@lists.ucla.edu] On Behalf Of Ira Lupu
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 8:19 AM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"

Why would a large, predominantly white suburban congregation near Birmingham 
need its own police force?

For a related religion clause case, see State v. Celmer, 
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court/1979/80-n-j-405-0.html 
(invalidating on First A grounds "a statutory scheme which grants various 
municipal powers to the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of The United 
Methodist Church.")

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Paul Horwitz 
<phorw...@hotmail.com<mailto:phorw...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Here's a story from the AP. What do you (or, to use the proper and incredibly 
useful grammar of my adopted state, "y'all") think? Is it a quasi-Grendel's Den 
case or something of the sort? A direct Establishment Clause problem insofar as 
it involves granting governmental or quasi-governmental status to a church 
itself? A Kiryas Joel-type case insofar as it grants a governmental privilege 
or status that might or might not be granted to, say, a mosque or some other 
organization? (Not that I'm crazy about that aspect of the Kiryas Joel ruling.) 
Or, insofar as state law allows the state to empower various entities to have 
police forces, is it constitutional because respectful of equal access to 
governmental benefits or privileges?



Paul Horwitz

University of Alabama School of Law


MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) – The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to form 
its own police force.
Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church in 
Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department.
The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as well as 
its more than 4,000 person congregation safe.
Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church 
officials could be used to cover up crimes.
The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a police 
force, but never a church or non-school entity.
Police experts have said such a police department would be unprecedented in the 
U.S.
A similar bill is also scheduled to be debated in the House on Tuesday.


___
To post, send message to 
Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu<mailto:Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see 
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Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  
Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can 
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the 
messages to others.



--
Ira C. Lupu
F. Elwood & Eleanor Davis Professor of Law, Emeritus
George Washington University Law School
2000 H St., NW
Washington, DC 20052
301-928-9178 (mobile, preferred)
202-994-7053 (office)
Co-author (with Professor Robert Tuttle) of "Secular Government, Religious 
People" ( Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2014))
My SSRN papers are here:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=181272#reg
___
To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see 
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Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  
Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can 
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the 
messages to others.

Re: State-sanctioned church "police force"

[Ira Lupu]

Why would a large, predominantly white suburban congregation near
Birmingham need its own police force?

For a related religion clause case, see State v. Celmer,
http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/supreme-court/1979/80-n-j-405-0.html
(invalidating on First A grounds "a statutory scheme which grants various
municipal powers to the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association of The United
Methodist Church.")

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Paul Horwitz  wrote:

> Here's a story from the AP. What do you (or, to use the proper and
> incredibly useful grammar of my adopted state, "y'all") think? Is it a
> quasi-Grendel's Den case or something of the sort? A direct Establishment
> Clause problem insofar as it involves granting governmental or
> quasi-governmental status to a church itself? A Kiryas Joel-type case
> insofar as it grants a governmental privilege or status that might or might
> not be granted to, say, a mosque or some other organization? (Not that I'm
> crazy about that aspect of the Kiryas Joel ruling.) Or, insofar as state
> law allows the state to empower various entities to have police forces, is
> it constitutional because respectful of equal access to governmental
> benefits or privileges?
>
>
> Paul Horwitz
>
> University of Alabama School of Law
>
>
> MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) – The Alabama Senate has voted to allow a church to
> form its own police force.
> Lawmakers on Tuesday voted 24-4 to allow Briarwood Presbyterian Church in
> Birmingham to establish a law enforcement department.
> The church says it needs its own police officers to keep its school as
> well as its more than 4,000 person congregation safe.
> Critics of the bill argue that a police department that reports to church
> officials could be used to cover up crimes.
> The state has given a few private universities the authority to have a
> police force, but never a church or non-school entity.
> Police experts have said such a police department would be unprecedented
> in the U.S.
> A similar bill is also scheduled to be debated in the House on Tuesday.
>
>
> ___
> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as
> private.  Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are
> posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or
> wrongly) forward the messages to others.
>



-- 
Ira C. Lupu
F. Elwood & Eleanor Davis Professor of Law, Emeritus
George Washington University Law School
2000 H St., NW
Washington, DC 20052
301-928-9178 (mobile, preferred)
202-994-7053 (office)
Co-author (with Professor Robert Tuttle) of "Secular Government, Religious
People" ( Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., 2014))
My SSRN papers are here:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=181272#reg
___
To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see 
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw

Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.  
Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can 
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the 
messages to others.