I have enjoyed this discussion very much. So much so, that I told Steven Barnes about it. In his reply, one comment tickled my funnybone.
It was in response to Chris' statement: "I still remember a picture taken back in the 80's in Locus magazine he had on this shirt with this "Alien's" beak coming out of it and he was contorted like he was a victim and I was thinking, "Who is this crazy negro")" Steve's response was: "Ah, I remember that Alien shirt. Sigh. Too bad latex deteriorates so quickly..." I miss his presence on the list Tracey -----Original Message----- From: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of belsidus2000 Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 4:18 PM To: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SciFiNoir Lit] Re: Lion's Blood again <<Folks first off let me thank Professor Spence for posting this. Usually folks have to pay for this kind of flava and he's laying it on us free. I thank you for the time you have put in on it and the thought, and contributing your expertise and study to this list to the stimulation of our minds, and the nourishment of our intellects and souls And now I got to carry you on to the "but" BUT I think you have been mayhap a little bit hasty--see below-- --- In SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Ok. I've got a bit of time. > > The reason I reiterate exactly how this thread started--as a critique > of what Barnes has to do to get to the next level-- <<Just what is this next level we are talking about? To reiterate, the man is a published author. Novels. TV scripts. Known and loved throughout fandom. I still remember a picture taken back in the 80's in Locus magazine he had on this t shirt with this "Alien's" beak coming out of it and he was contorted like he was a victim and I was thinking, "Who is this crazy negro") What level? Greater sales? More awards? Please clarify>> is because without > that part we veer off into weird directions. Directions that may be > "lively" but may end up shedding more heat than light. > > This is why the comparison with Turtledove, something Chris neglected, > becomes important. Turtledove's writing is a definite problem as it > relates to black people. The depiction of Africans in his fantasy riff > of World War II was deeply problematic. > > But he's the best in the business...in alternative history. <<Where is that Wikepedia url I posted while back. There were about 40 or more books on that list. Nowhere on that list or in any of the literature I have read on Alternative History has it stated that Turkle-hoosit is the "best in the business" Could it be that YOU like him the best? Please clarify>> If we're > to refer to Barnes as one of the best in alternative history, then to > ME what we're saying is that he's as good as, if not better than, the > best in his field. <<Now we're cutting through the bramble and getting down to the stump. You may say that. But I think you need to let us know this is your opinion--learned though it may be--or quote or cite some other authorities>> > > What makes an alternative history good? > > Some of the same things that makes a STORY good. Because in science > fiction, one of the most important things is creating a believable > world--the world in science fiction and fantasy is as much a character > as the "real" characters--getting the reader to suspend her disbelief > is crucial. You don't suspend her disbelief, and it doesn't really > matter how good or interesting your characters are. > > In alternative history for ME, an important part of suspending > disbelief is creating a plausible jumping off point for the alternative > universe. > ........ > In Philip Roth's recent novel THE PLOT AGAINST AMERICA his jumping off > point is....a 1940 presidential election in which truman loses to > Charles Lindbergh. <<Already Roth has violated your rule because Truman wasn't on the ticket in 1940--but this apparently is not your beef with him. Did you miss it?>> Once Lindbergh wins he quickly establishes America > as an anti-Semitic nation that uses all types of terroristic > legislation and behavior to subjugate American jews. For a number of > readers, this account was riveting. > > There's one problem though. There was ALREADY an example in the > forties of a group of people who were subjugated by terroristic policy > and law. > > US. > > I don't know how Roth could've ignored this simple fact--lynching had > died down a bit but people were still being dragged out of their homes > in the middle of the night, they were victimized and brutalized by > night riders, their land stolen, their bodies broken by slave labor. > But Roth did. > > No way in hell does that alternative history ring true for me. I > cannot suspend my disbelief. > ....... <<Why. I have heard other people criticize the book on this count. I myself think it is a valid criticism. I think though we have to realize that if we were to ask Roth about this, he would probably say "I feels ya homie but I gots to git MINES!" ie, he probably had Jews in mind as his audience, and was writing for them. He probably likes you, loves you and would give you his left testicle, but he couldn't care less if you didn't read his book for that cuz he wasn't trying to reach you--or me>>> > > Reading Lion's Blood, what jumped out to me was that I found myself > asking over and over again--why does slavery still occur if the > Europeans don't do it? > > The enslavement was a product of material expansion--Slaves WORKED THE > LAND TO PROVIDE PRODUCT. In South America and in the Caribbean they > worked sugar cane. In the Deep South they worked cotton. These goods > were then used to create finished product that was sold on an > international market. The countries of Europe were so desirous of > slave labor as a way to grow their own economies that the Pope had to > step in and basically create a legal process that would determine WHO > had the rights to go WHERE. And of course on top of this was an > ideological machine that used religion, science, and manifest destiny, > to say that it was basically ok to create chattle slavery. The > competition between these various nations was fierce for a number of > reasons, and it helped to develop a culture that was both sophisticated > technically and barbarous as far as its relationships with other > non-european peoples. > > In short, I believe in a macro level form of "environmental > determinism." That is, the material, and cultural environment of a > given place exert an effect on the customs, the religious and political > systems, and the martial tendencies of people. Jared Diamond makes > this argument in GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL....but I don't think he takes > it to its natural conclusion. <<Are you going to argue that Africans did not keep slaves??>> > > Reading Lion's Blood, I never got the sense that Barnes thought all of > this through. It's as if his central argument was "well, if Africans > had the opportunity, they would have done it too." <<I don't think that was his central argument. I think he was trying to show what it would be like if the script was flipped. What did you think of "The Known World" by Edward Jones? How the hell is he supposed to illustrate to someone how it is if the script was flipped if he shows something else. After all, white folks have done it to each other. The Romans enslaved Gauls, Britons, Germans. The Greeks enslaved the Russians and other "Slavs". That position is > inane to me. Now it IS possible to make that argument and create a > world in which that position makes sense--but for me that world would > have to literally have a different climate. Give Africa REAL winters, > and take away its ability to basically grow food and material in > abundance...and I can buy it. Otherwise? Nope. > > ......... > Now on the real. > > I can easily see someone tripping on me asking someone to actually READ > the book we're talking about. But come on! Getting into a larger > argument about what an alternative history is supposed to look like > don't mean a damn thing without some actual TEXT in front of you. All > it leads is to sniping from the side, and folks pulling out all types > of stuff from the wood work. <<This is--what do you guys call it--sophistry. Address the arguments. Don't try to sidestep the issues>> > > "What about Black Empire? Was THAT good?" > > "What about Song of Solomon? Was THAT good?" > > Hell...in a neat Afrocentric twist, Chris even pulled out GONE WITH THE > WIND! Going Scarlett O' Hara on my ass. <<What are you talking about? You're slipping, Spense!>> > > At some level in order to create and figure out standards of writing, > we've got to COME WITH SOMETHING. <<What are you talking about? Now you are going to say you have explained this. If you look back over your post, you haven't. Come with what? In an Alternative History--which is not a Historical novel, but in fact one that is A-historical, which makes no pretense of history but is a totally made up situation, you insist that it sticks to some version of history. There is some very emotional beef you have with this work that you are not quite revealing to us>> > > Especially when we're talking about black writers writing about black > subjects. > > You want arrogant? If it means saying that to be a good writer of > BLACK speculative fiction, you've got to write something that rings > true to black life and world history....then yeah. I'll BE that. I'll > be the one telling you to read rather than just talking about something > out of the side of your neck (Chris you know I love you like a play > cousin!). I'll be the one saying that we can't just say "well, > everyone should be able to write in their own special way." <<I know you don't mean this. This is intellectual Facism. Write my way or don't write. You're being very emotional. This is supposed to be intellectual and this man is being emotional.>> > > Hell no. Unless you're telling me that it's ok for a movie like > Mississippi Burning to not only exist but get awards. <<????Lawd hab mercy! Did I mention the movie Mississippi Burning people? Did I?>> > > I LIKE Steven Barnes work. I think BLOOD BROTHERS was good...and he > writes martial arts combat better than anyone I've read. <<I wish he would come on here. It is very difficult trying to tell you what I think he meant>> But just like > most real scientists toss Star Wars over the side because the Tie > Fighters actually make SOUNDS when they fly through SPACE... <<An inappropriate analogy. You think George Lucas don't know this. He knows this. He also knows that the audience couldn't give a damn whether Star Wars is scientifically accurate or not. It is space opera. When you get into Faster than light travel in ships you are in lala land. But this is what they want. It is entertainment. Like Superman. The Hulk. Batman. You want everyone to make 2001? You want everybody to make Men in Space? I'm a real > black social scientist (in any way you want to carve it). And I'm > quick to toss nonfiction and fiction over the side if it doesn't adhere > to the standards i fight for on the regular when it comes to black > people. > > peace > lks > <<He got black on us! He got black on us! Shouldn't the ref deduct some points?--no that's okay, I do it too--when all else fails. You are dealing with something that you are not putting down here in this post. "Black writers" "black subjects". > p.s. Wild Cards was dope. Sue me. > > <<All that before and you end up saying that a load of bilge like Wild Cards (I did not say it was not ENTERTAINING--hell you are talking to a man who just had a good time re reading Edgar Rice Burroughs "The Gods of Mars")--I said it was make believe bilge. What part of it was scientifically accurate? Out with it, Spence. What is it? I admit I had a terrible grudge against Steve for years because he married that fine hammer Tananarive Due but I got over it--mostly. Sometimes. 'Cept when I think about it too long. Chris Community email addresses: Post message: SciFiNoir_Lit@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe Digest Mode: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SciFiNoir_Lit/ Yahoo! Groups Links -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.3/15 - Release Date: 6/14/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. 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