Re: [Simh] VAX 750 and 730 (was Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?)

On 23/03/2020 19:16, Bob Supnik wrote: > One of the problems with simulating the non-VLSI VAXen, other than the > 780, is that the microcode is not available. Back at DEC, I had the > 730 microcode in a huge notebook (it was 16KW), but I discarded it > when I moved out of Hudson and downsized my

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> On Mar 23, 2020, at 5:49 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > > Slightly off topic, could someone explain more about what microcode is and > how it works? The fact that the CPU instructions are they themselves > programmed in seems unfathomable. > > Ray It's about a cost vs. performance tradeoff.

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

Hello! I agree with you Tim, that's an excellent book on the subject. The AM2901 was used in some DEC designs that I know of. In fact in the databook I have here, AMD mentions that some part numbers were themselves designed for those DEC designs. And that some LSI-11 designs found themselves fully

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 22:32, Clem Cole wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:57 PM Johnny Billquist > wrote: The VAX-11/750 used 2901 though... 750 was made out of custom CMOS gate arrays.  The main adder was analyzed as part of my thesis [long story - not for here, but a

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

The Mick and Brick book is THE BEST and 100% applicable to the 2901-based 11/730 and KS discussions here. http://bitsavers.org/components/amd/Am2900/Mick_Bit-Slice_Microprocessor_Design_1980.pdf > On Mar 23, 2020, at 5:49 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > > Slightly off topic, could someone explain

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 5:49 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > Slightly off topic, could someone explain more about what microcode is > and how it works? The fact that the CPU instructions are they themselves > programmed in seems unfathomable.  > Here's a decent start:

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 5:49 PM Ray Jewhurst wrote: > Slightly off topic, could someone explain more about what microcode is and > how it works? The fact that the CPU instructions are they themselves > programmed in seems unfathomable. > > Ray > > On Mon,

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

Slightly off topic, could someone explain more about what microcode is and how it works? The fact that the CPU instructions are they themselves programmed in seems unfathomable. Ray On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 5:33 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:57 PM Johnny Billquist wrote: >

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:57 PM Johnny Billquist wrote: > The VAX-11/750 used 2901 though... > 750 was made out of custom CMOS gate arrays. The main adder was analyzed as part of my thesis [long story - not for here, but a very clever circuit. I would later get to know the guy that did it].

Re: [Simh] VAX 750 and 730 (was Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?)

Bob, are we talking microcode source or binaries here? I certainly have the binaries for the 86x0. I also previously pointed you to a person who had put at least the source for (I think) the I-box microcode for the 86x0 on the net, and he had more that he hadn't scanned... Johnny On

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 19:36, Paul Koning wrote: On the VAX 730: as far as I'm aware it's the only VAX built out of standard LSI CPU components. The guts of the CPU is AMD 2901 bit-slice chips. All other DEC microprogrammed machines I can think of had their own purpose-designed logic. I was

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 23-Mar-20 15:29, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:01 PM Timothe Litt > wrote: > > The PDP-11s, like the 11/05 were ttl, the CPU ALU was something > like 74181 4 bit slices.  I don't count them as "real" microcoded > machines for some reason -

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 19:29, Ethan Dicks wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:30 PM Robert Armstrong wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: The memory bus on the VAX-11/750 is the same as for the MK11 box for the PDP-11/70, and they shared some memory cards. Same memory was used on the 730 too. The 730

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

Bob, the October 1978 LCG product strategy red book, shows the 2901-based Minnow as a direct follow-on to the KS in the same technology lineage. Many technology aspects (including R80 and RL02 peripheral system) in the 11/730 are exactly as they were in the planned Minnow. IIRC the R80 drawings

[Simh] VAX 750 and 730 (was Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?)

One of the problems with simulating the non-VLSI VAXen, other than the 780, is that the microcode is not available. Back at DEC, I had the 730 microcode in a huge notebook (it was 16KW), but I discarded it when I moved out of Hudson and downsized my document collection. We really need the

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:34 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > The 11/60 microcoded to run PDP-8 instructions is the story I remember > from the early 80s. > > Now I have an 11/60 so I am sad that hack was lost. > I exchanged email with Richie Lary some years back, and he did not have a copy, so it

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 23-Mar-20 14:36, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 23, 2020, at 1:29 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: >> >> ... >> On the VAX 730: as far as I'm aware it's the only VAX built out of >> standard LSI CPU components. The guts of the CPU is AMD 2901 >> bit-slice chips. All other DEC microprogrammed machines

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> Paul Koning wrote: >2901 bitslices do appear in other DEC products, the UDA comes to mind The KS was built with 2901s, right? Or at least some 29xx family parts? Actually the KS and the 730 implementations have a lot in common. I always wondered if the same engineers worked on both,

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

BTW... great interview of Richie Lary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp2NSbJ2H1k On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 2:36 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 1:29 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: > > > > ... > >> Since the KL10 was DEC's biggest, most expensive machine at the time, > it wasn't

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> On Mar 23, 2020, at 1:29 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: > > ... >> Since the KL10 was DEC's biggest, most expensive machine at the time, it >> wasn't nearly as cost sensitive as their other CPUs, so there probably >> wasn't even any consideration given to using PROM for the control store. > I

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 9:47 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > On Mar 23, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > > > > ...for years I've heard a persistent rumor that the PDP-8/WPS-8 group at > > DEC had a 730 with microcode that had been hacked to include a PDP-8 > > compatibility mode, which

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:30 PM Robert Armstrong wrote: > > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >The memory bus on the VAX-11/750 is the same as for the MK11 box for the > >PDP-11/70, and they shared some memory cards. > > Same memory was used on the 730 too. The 730 memory cards were always 1MB >

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 23-Mar-20 13:53, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:35 AM Robert Armstrong > wrote: > > > Timothe Litt mailto:l...@ieee.org>> wrote: > > KS10 ... The 8085 code is crammed into UV EPROMs. > >   Was all of the KS CFE code in EPROM?  On the 730 only

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:35 AM Robert Armstrong wrote: > > Timothe Litt wrote: > > KS10 ... The 8085 code is crammed into UV EPROMs. > > Was all of the KS CFE code in EPROM? On the 730 only a small kernel of > 8085 code (about 2K as I remember) was in ROM/EPROM and the rest of the > 8085

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 23-Mar-20 13:35, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> Timothe Litt wrote: >> KS10 ... The 8085 code is crammed into UV EPROMs. > Was all of the KS CFE code in EPROM? Yes, it is.  There are a couple of microwords in the CRAM that deal with console responses (single step, console interrupts for the

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

Den 2020-03-23 kl. 17:58, skrev Robert Armstrong: I think the 11/750 might have had an 8085 as well. I'm pretty sure the 750's console functions were implemented in microcode. It was the only one of the "big" VAXes that didn't have a separate "computer" as the front end. Quotations used

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 11:29 AM Timothe Litt wrote: > The KL10 was the first microcoded machine. > The first DEC microcoded 36-bit computer, but _not_ the first DEC microcoded computer! The PDP-9 (1966, core rope memory for control store), PDP-11/05 (1972), PDP-11/40 (1973), and PDP-11/45

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> Timothe Litt wrote: > KS10 ... The 8085 code is crammed into UV EPROMs. Was all of the KS CFE code in EPROM? On the 730 only a small kernel of 8085 code (about 2K as I remember) was in ROM/EPROM and the rest of the 8085 memory was RAM. The first thing the 8085 did at power on was to load

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> Johnny Billquist wrote: >The memory bus on the VAX-11/750 is the same as for the MK11 box for the >PDP-11/70, and they shared some memory cards. Same memory was used on the 730 too. The 730 memory cards were always 1MB though - never saw any other size. I don't know the actual number

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 23-Mar-20 13:09, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:34 AM Robert Armstrong > wrote: > > The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in > RAM and was loaded by the CFE at boot time.  It was possible to > locally modify the 730

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> Hunter Goatley wrote: >... kick back and read a few chapters from one of the SF novels while > waiting for their build to complete. 8-) I had a job in the early 80s for a company that wrote EDA software, and we used a 750 as the development platform. Linking a new EXE (_linking_!!) took

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 17:58, Robert Armstrong wrote: I think the 11/750 might have had an 8085 as well. I'm pretty sure the 750's console functions were implemented in microcode. It was the only one of the "big" VAXes that didn't have a separate "computer" as the front end. Quotations used

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

Pardon the reminiscing, but all of this talk about the 11/730 reminds me of my first job after college. At WKU, we had a VAX 11/785. After graduating, I went to work for Clyde Digital Systems. When I got there, I was surprised at the several bookcases full of SF novels scattered around the

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:34 AM Robert Armstrong wrote: > The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in RAM and > was loaded by the CFE at boot time. It was possible to locally modify the > 730 microcode, and DEC even had a set of microcode development tools for > the 730.

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 16:35, Bob Eager wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:10:17 -0700 "Robert Armstrong" wrote: FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address register); perhaps it was used in the 730 as well. The 730 certainly had a UBA; don?t know if had a specific "FUBAR"

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 15:44, Paul Koning wrote: On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: ... I remember they opened the chassis a number of times to show off that bar, the part was indeed labelled "FUBAR", it was the source of some laughs. FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA:

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On 2020-03-23 14:33, Robert Armstrong wrote: Ethan Dicks wrote: Using a PDP-8 as an FEP on any VAX definitely sounds odd. The console front end for the 730 was an 8085 (just like the KS10, FWIW). Trying to remember. Not sure, but I think the 11/750 might have had an 8085 as well.

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:10:17 -0700 "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > >FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address > >register); > > perhaps it was used in the 730 as well. > > The 730 certainly had a UBA; don?t know if had a specific "FUBAR" > register though. But as far as

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

>FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address register); > perhaps it was used in the 730 as well. The 730 certainly had a UBA; don’t know if had a specific "FUBAR" register though. But as far as a physical bar inside the chassis I've never seen nor heard of anything

Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 194, Issue 56

Paul Koning wrote RSTS/E had a general mechanism called "run-time system", vaguely like a cross between a shell and a shared library. Or in more modern jargon an "operating system personality". Take *that*, Windows NT ! ___ Simh mailing list

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > ... > I remember they opened the chassis a number of times to show off that bar, > the part was indeed labelled "FUBAR", it was the source of some laughs. FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address register);

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

all I can tell you is the vax 11/730 I used in high school, I was told had a pdp-8 fep. william Dukelow was the primary admin, teacher, in charge of the system. unfortunately he has just recently passed away. I remember they opened the chassis a number of times to show off that bar, the part

Re: [Simh] Andy Hoffman's VMS 4.x packages

So I am trying to get this package to work on as many systems as possible and now I wonder if on the VAXStation 2000 or 2 if there are are any copies of VWS floating around. Simh is I guess is a really good way to handle shelter in place... Ray On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 8:39 PM Johnny Billquist

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 9:33 AM Robert Armstrong wrote: > The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in RAM and > was loaded by the CFE at boot time. It was possible to locally modify the > 730 microcode, and DEC even had a set of microcode development tools for > the 730.

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> Paul Koning wrote: >... extended microcode to run PDP-8 code faster. But it was an 11/60 running RSTS/E. So it is true (well, sort of, but with a PDP-11/60 rather than a VAX-11/730)?? Do you know any details of how it was implemented? If it ran RSTS then it was obviously still a PDP-11 at

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> On Mar 23, 2020, at 9:33 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Using a PDP-8 as an FEP on any VAX definitely sounds odd. > > The console front end for the 730 was an 8085 (just like the KS10, FWIW). > > The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in RAM

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

> Ethan Dicks wrote: >Using a PDP-8 as an FEP on any VAX definitely sounds odd. The console front end for the 730 was an 8085 (just like the KS10, FWIW). The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in RAM and was loaded by the CFE at boot time. It was possible to locally

Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 8:21 PM Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I believe it was a Vax 730 with a PDP-8 FEP, inside the main chassis it > actually had a part labelled (in big letters) "FUBAR" > > If I remember correctly, it ran VMS v2.4 I'm pretty sure VMS 3.0 was the first to support the 11/730 (the