Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
Dihydrogen Monoxide is water. - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:51:28 EST, you wrote: Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info Every concerned environmentalist should visit this site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] What site? You are sending messages to the group which appear to have some parts of them removed when they reach my email. A simple pasting of the link is I think what you're looking for. Probably you meant this one: http://www.dhmo.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info Every concerned environmentalist should visit this site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:51:28 EST, you wrote: Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info Every concerned environmentalist should visit this site. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] What site? You are sending messages to the group which appear to have some parts of them removed when they reach my email. A simple pasting of the link is I think what you're looking for. Probably you meant this one: http://www.dhmo.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
Let's see, in the past few days there has been plenty of hydrogen hype reported. California has stated they expect to have hydrogen cars on the road in significant numbers by 2010. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0226HydrogenHighway26- ON.html The U.S. federal government figures they can bring the transition to hydrogen as a road fuel by 2020. (Bush's State of the Union address, January 2003, repeated over and over again since) H. Tiny disconnect there, methinks. The government of California announces they are going to finance the conversion of 30 Toyota Priuses to hydrogen power for a mere US$77,000 per vehicle. Base car and refueling infrastructure not included. What I found really interesting was that this conversion is to replace the *internal combustion engine* with a hydrogen- burning engine, not replacing the batteries with a fuel cell. No wonder this is such a deal (by hydrogen car standards), no fuel cell technology being used, and the proven TMC hybrid technology makes the hydrogen engine efficiency look acceptable. http://www.qtww.com/news_events/index.shtml The U.S. DOE publishes its Hydrogen Posture Plan (a document so full of puffery that my printer refuses to produce it as readable hard copy). It includes claims by Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham that the plan can advance a commercialization decision by 15 years, from 2030 to 2015 (regarding hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and supporting infrastructure). Later (page iii), we read DOE envisions a four-phase process to fully realize a hydrogen economy by 2030-2040. The document does not address the issue of efficiency of producing hydrogen, other than to say it needs to be improved, and provides no defined targets or estimates of current state of the art. http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/hydrogen_posture_plan.pdf Pick a date, any date. Then, I thought the Sierra Club was getting with the program, but on closer reading see they have not actually shifted mind sets. They're still pushing for fuel cells http://www.sierraclub.org/globalwarming/solutions/fuelcells.asp and implicitly the hydrogen economy, it's just the lack of defined deliverables under the FreedomCar program they're taking issue with. But at least they are beginning to understand that the hydrogen economy is about *more* pollution until we get a serious renewable energy strategy into play first. For those of you that have not yet visited, my hydrogen economy webpage is at http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm Darryl McMahon Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
This may be of interest...sorry about the weird spacing. Page 1 Date: 2004-02-06 16:10:19Topic: Energy and Environment Plants could point way to cheap hydrogen processing The possibility of using the Earth's abundant supply of water as a cheap source of hydrogen is a step closer thanks to researchers from Imperial College London. By mimicking the method plants use to split water, researchers say that a highly energy efficient way to form cheap supplies of hydrogen fuel may be possible in the future. From the Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine : Seeing how plants split water could provide key to our future energy needs The possibility of using the Earth's abundant supply of water as a cheap source of hydrogen is a step closer thanks to researchers from Imperial College London. By mimicking the method plants use to split water, researchers say that a highly energy efficient way to form cheap supplies of hydrogen fuel may be possible in the future. Reporting online in the journal Science today Imperial researchers reveal the fine detail of the protein complex that drives photosynthesis - the process that converts atmospheric carbon dioxide into organic matter and oxygen (O2) by using sunlight to split water (H2O). Using X-ray crystallography, the researchers describe for the first time the mechanism that underpins the photosynthetic water-splitting reaction. By analysing these findings the researchers believe it may be possible to learn how to recreate the process on an industrial scale, allowing hydrogen to be manufactured as a fuel. Professor Jim Barber of Imperial's Department of Biological Sciences explains: Without photosynthesis life on Earth would not exist as we know it. Oxygen derived from this process is part of the air we breathe and maintains the ozone layer needed to protect us from UV radiation. Now hydrogen also contained in water could be one of the most promising energy sources for the future. Unlike fossil fuels it's highly efficient, low polluting and is mobile so it can be used for power generation in remote regions where it's difficult to access electricity. But the problem is hydrogen doesn't exist on Earth by itself. Instead it Page 1 of 3 printed on 10.03.2004 at 16.13 . Page 2 combines with other elements such as oxygen to form water, or with carbon to form methane, coal and petroleum. However, water is very stable and for this reason cannot be used directly as a fuel. Researchers have investigated using electrolysis to split water into oxygen and hydrogen but today it costs ten times as much as natural gas, and is three times as expensive as gasoline. Yet nature figured out how to split water using sunlight in an energy efficient way 2.5 billion years ago. By revealing the structure of the water splitting centre we can begin to unravel how to perform this task in an energy efficient way too. Photosynthesis occurs in plants, some bacteria and algae and involves two protein complexes, photosystem I, and photosystem II - which contains the water-splitting centre. While previous models of PSII function have sketched out a picture of how the water splitting centre might be organised, the Imperial team were able to reveal the structure of the centre at a resolution of 3.5 angstroms (or one hundred millionth of a centimetre) in the cyanobacterium, Thermosynechococcus elongatus by combining the expertise of Professor So Iwata in solving protein structures and Professor Jim Barber in the photosynthetic process. Results by other groups, including those obtained using lower resolution X-ray crystallography at 3.7 angstroms have shown that the splitting of water occurs at a catalytic centre that consists of four manganese atoms (Mn), explains Professor So Iwata of Imperial's Department of Biological Sciences. We've taken this further by showing that three of the manganese atoms, a calcium atom and four oxygen atoms form a cube like structure, which brings stability to the catalytic centre. The forth and most reactive manganese atom is attached to one of the oxygen atoms of the cube. Together this arrangement gives strong hints about the water-splitting chemistry. Our structure also reveals the position of key amino acids, the building blocks of proteins, which provide a details of how cofactors are recruited into the reaction centre. Professor Barber added: PSII is truly the 'engine of life' and it has been a major challenge of modern science to understand how it works. Manufacturing hydrogen from water using the photosynthetic method would be far more efficient than using electrolysis and if we can learn how to use even a fraction of the 326 million cubic miles of water on the planet we can begin to address the world's pressing need for new and Page 2 of 3 printed on
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen Hokum Round-up
The government of California announces they are going to finance the conversion of 30 Toyota Priuses to hydrogen power for a mere US$77,000 per vehicle. Base car and refueling infrastructure not included. What I found really interesting was that this conversion is to replace the *internal combustion engine* with a hydrogen- burning engine, not replacing the batteries with a fuel cell. No wonder this is such a deal (by hydrogen car standards), no fuel cell technology being used, and the proven TMC hybrid technology makes the hydrogen engine efficiency look acceptable. http://www.qtww.com/news_events/index.shtml Generally, the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles I've been in have the hydrogen portion of the power replacing the internal combusion engine. not replacing the battery. Both the Toyota and Nissan (which is based on Toyota Technology) at EVS20 were hybrids of this sort, not exactly Prius technology, but I think with some relation. (The Nissan used a Li-Ion battery, which is logical considering that with their $500,000 Altra EV they used Li-Ion and not NiMH). The Honda FC vehicle also was a hybrid, using an ultracapacitor instead of a battery. So, I'm not sure it would be uncommon for a FC vehicle to have some supplemental hybrid power, such as a battery or a UC. It might be a little unusual for Hydrgoen-IC-engine vehicle. I don't know. But I don't see it as any sort of problem or anything. I've always thought of Hydrogen as generally proposed to replace gaseous and liquid fuels. You are right to point out that by starting with the 1st or 2nd most-energy-efficient vehicle on the road, the creators of that H2 engine vehicle are sort of cheating if they end up claiming some super-giganto-efficiency that is really just the excellence of Prius Technology asserting itself. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
