Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol
If the bio was unwashed (as you state below) then how could it have given good results in the methanol test as stated by Jan below, below? I find that the methanol test is quite stingent. I can easily get fuel that passes the wash test with flying colours but still gives some precipitate from the methanol test. BTW out of curiosityhow many of you get zero precipitate in the methanol test? Can we have a show of hands? Joe JJJN wrote: Thanks Jan, You have confirmed what I have researched from JtF about the base converting the methyl esters back to mono and di glycerides (can happen) and that certainly makes sense as the bio was unwashed therefore it would have had additional catalyst available for this to happen. Thanks again for your help here Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Jim, since the methanol solubility test worked out well, you probably have created some soap from the methyl esters. With best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "JJJN" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "BIO" Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:32 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol I just tested a 60 Liter batch and have a few questions; below is what I have done with the results and further below are my questions, The biodiesel used in the tests below was unwashed - glycerin layer removed. 1.) Using the test method noted on JtF ( Jan Warnqvist - Methanol test) as prescribed 225 ml Methanol combined with 25 ml of the biodiesel. Results: Biodiesel was fully soluble and formed a clear bright phase no contaminants or other phases noted. Results after 24 hours - No change. 2) Using a MODIFIED JtF method, (combining 4.90875 grams lab grade KOH and 100 ml Methanol (Potassium Methoxil) with 1 Liter of the biodiesel) - INSTEAD I added 400ml methanol and 4.90875 grams KOH ( Potassium Methoxil ) (both lab grade near absolute) to 1 Liter of the Biodiesel. I then heated to 120 deg F and mixed for one hour. Results: after 24 hours there was a nice amber layer from the bottom of the glass jar up to the last say 1/2 inch where a very very slightly amber layer resided to the top. there was nothing at the bottom at all. 3) Wash test JtF, In a glass jar I shook 1/2 Bio and 1/2 water at room temp till mixed into one phase. Results: within 1 minute the water and Bio separated and the water was quite white. Wash #2 same time of separation water clearer this time. Wash # 3 same as #2. Wash # 4 water was not drinking quality but PH is close to seven. O.K why did I increase the Methanol in test #2) above? I am not sure except to see what it would do, but from what I read it would not harm so I did. My Question: Can anyone tell me what the strange clear amber layer on top of the other clear amber layer may be? Could this be the FFA content per L? Thanks in advance, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol
Hello Jim, since the methanol solubility test worked out well, you probably have created some soap from the methyl esters. With best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BIO Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:32 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol I just tested a 60 Liter batch and have a few questions; below is what I have done with the results and further below are my questions, The biodiesel used in the tests below was unwashed - glycerin layer removed. 1.) Using the test method noted on JtF ( Jan Warnqvist - Methanol test) as prescribed 225 ml Methanol combined with 25 ml of the biodiesel. Results: Biodiesel was fully soluble and formed a clear bright phase no contaminants or other phases noted. Results after 24 hours - No change. 2) Using a MODIFIED JtF method, (combining 4.90875 grams lab grade KOH and 100 ml Methanol (Potassium Methoxil) with 1 Liter of the biodiesel) - INSTEAD I added 400ml methanol and 4.90875 grams KOH ( Potassium Methoxil ) (both lab grade near absolute) to 1 Liter of the Biodiesel. I then heated to 120 deg F and mixed for one hour. Results: after 24 hours there was a nice amber layer from the bottom of the glass jar up to the last say 1/2 inch where a very very slightly amber layer resided to the top. there was nothing at the bottom at all. 3) Wash test JtF, In a glass jar I shook 1/2 Bio and 1/2 water at room temp till mixed into one phase. Results: within 1 minute the water and Bio separated and the water was quite white. Wash #2 same time of separation water clearer this time. Wash # 3 same as #2. Wash # 4 water was not drinking quality but PH is close to seven. O.K why did I increase the Methanol in test #2) above? I am not sure except to see what it would do, but from what I read it would not harm so I did. My Question: Can anyone tell me what the strange clear amber layer on top of the other clear amber layer may be? Could this be the FFA content per L? Thanks in advance, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol
Thanks Jan, You have confirmed what I have researched from JtF about the base converting the methyl esters back to mono and di glycerides (can happen) and that certainly makes sense as the bio was unwashed therefore it would have had additional catalyst available for this to happen. Thanks again for your help here Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Jim, since the methanol solubility test worked out well, you probably have created some soap from the methyl esters. With best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: BIO Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 7:32 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol I just tested a 60 Liter batch and have a few questions; below is what I have done with the results and further below are my questions, The biodiesel used in the tests below was unwashed - glycerin layer removed. 1.) Using the test method noted on JtF ( Jan Warnqvist - Methanol test) as prescribed 225 ml Methanol combined with 25 ml of the biodiesel. Results: Biodiesel was fully soluble and formed a clear bright phase no contaminants or other phases noted. Results after 24 hours - No change. 2) Using a MODIFIED JtF method, (combining 4.90875 grams lab grade KOH and 100 ml Methanol (Potassium Methoxil) with 1 Liter of the biodiesel) - INSTEAD I added 400ml methanol and 4.90875 grams KOH ( Potassium Methoxil ) (both lab grade near absolute) to 1 Liter of the Biodiesel. I then heated to 120 deg F and mixed for one hour. Results: after 24 hours there was a nice amber layer from the bottom of the glass jar up to the last say 1/2 inch where a very very slightly amber layer resided to the top. there was nothing at the bottom at all. 3) Wash test JtF, In a glass jar I shook 1/2 Bio and 1/2 water at room temp till mixed into one phase. Results: within 1 minute the water and Bio separated and the water was quite white. Wash #2 same time of separation water clearer this time. Wash # 3 same as #2. Wash # 4 water was not drinking quality but PH is close to seven. O.K why did I increase the Methanol in test #2) above? I am not sure except to see what it would do, but from what I read it would not harm so I did. My Question: Can anyone tell me what the strange clear amber layer on top of the other clear amber layer may be? Could this be the FFA content per L? Thanks in advance, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol
I just tested a 60 Liter batch and have a few questions; below is what I have done with the results and further below are my questions, The biodiesel used in the tests below was unwashed - glycerin layer removed. 1.) Using the test method noted on JtF ( Jan Warnqvist - Methanol test) as prescribed 225 ml Methanol combined with 25 ml of the biodiesel. Results: Biodiesel was fully soluble and formed a clear bright phase no contaminants or other phases noted. Results after 24 hours - No change. 2) Using a MODIFIED JtF method, (combining 4.90875 grams lab grade KOH and 100 ml Methanol (Potassium Methoxil) with 1 Liter of the biodiesel) - INSTEAD I added 400ml methanol and 4.90875 grams KOH ( Potassium Methoxil ) (both lab grade near absolute) to 1 Liter of the Biodiesel. I then heated to 120 deg F and mixed for one hour. Results: after 24 hours there was a nice amber layer from the bottom of the glass jar up to the last say 1/2 inch where a very very slightly amber layer resided to the top. there was nothing at the bottom at all. 3) Wash test JtF, In a glass jar I shook 1/2 Bio and 1/2 water at room temp till mixed into one phase. Results: within 1 minute the water and Bio separated and the water was quite white. Wash #2 same time of separation water clearer this time. Wash # 3 same as #2. Wash # 4 water was not drinking quality but PH is close to seven. O.K why did I increase the Methanol in test #2) above? I am not sure except to see what it would do, but from what I read it would not harm so I did. My Question: Can anyone tell me what the strange clear amber layer on top of the other clear amber layer may be? Could this be the FFA content per L? Thanks in advance, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Testing excessive methanol
I ran some additional tests on the two layers (see test # 2 below) Top Layer mixed with water: Results Soapy and white no separation (yet) (very Soapy- Sudsy) Bottom Layer mixed with water: Results Water turns white but a nice clear amber layer of biofuel on top. Any one? JJJN wrote: I just tested a 60 Liter batch and have a few questions; below is what I have done with the results and further below are my questions, The biodiesel used in the tests below was unwashed - glycerin layer removed. 1.) Using the test method noted on JtF ( Jan Warnqvist - Methanol test) as prescribed 225 ml Methanol combined with 25 ml of the biodiesel. Results: Biodiesel was fully soluble and formed a clear bright phase no contaminants or other phases noted. Results after 24 hours - No change. 2) Using a MODIFIED JtF method, (combining 4.90875 grams lab grade KOH and 100 ml Methanol (Potassium Methoxil) with 1 Liter of the biodiesel) - INSTEAD I added 400ml methanol and 4.90875 grams KOH ( Potassium Methoxil ) (both lab grade near absolute) to 1 Liter of the Biodiesel. I then heated to 120 deg F and mixed for one hour. Results: after 24 hours there was a nice amber layer from the bottom of the glass jar up to the last say 1/2 inch where a very very slightly amber layer resided to the top. there was nothing at the bottom at all. 3) Wash test JtF, In a glass jar I shook 1/2 Bio and 1/2 water at room temp till mixed into one phase. Results: within 1 minute the water and Bio separated and the water was quite white. Wash #2 same time of separation water clearer this time. Wash # 3 same as #2. Wash # 4 water was not drinking quality but PH is close to seven. O.K why did I increase the Methanol in test #2) above? I am not sure except to see what it would do, but from what I read it would not harm so I did. My Question: Can anyone tell me what the strange clear amber layer on top of the other clear amber layer may be? Could this be the FFA content per L? Thanks in advance, Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
