Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Hello Shawn. You were looking at all methanol soluble components including the glycerine which is rather soluble in methanol. Separate the glycerine next time. Best regards Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:03 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and that also seems to help w/ this. Thomas Kelly wrote: Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Shawn, I see that Jan W replied to your post. I hope I didn't confuse things with my earlier post Do as he advises. Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Mike, I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes much easier. I doubt that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I don't think the unreacted oil will settle out. But: I have been wondering about something. When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test. I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my oil-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. Is it because I let it settle longer (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)? Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction? Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and that also seems to help w/ this. Thomas Kelly wrote: Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Hey Tom; Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside in a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles out. Rod believes that glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. I believe he is right. And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes much easier. I doubt that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I don't think the unreacted oil will settle out. But: I have been wondering about something. When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test. I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my oil-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. Is it because I let it settle longer (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)? Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction? Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and that also seems to help w/ this. Thomas Kelly wrote: Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Well, I'm not really a greybeard, but since I've been settling both the crack and the wash I haven't seen any white gunk in the clear filter. -M Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes much easier. I doubt that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I don't think the unreacted oil will settle out. But: I have been wondering about something. When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test. I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my oil-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. Is it because I let it settle longer (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)? Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction? Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and that also seems to help w/ this. Thomas Kelly wrote: Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Do you let the wash settle longer too? When I'm not in a rush I let it settle for 12 - 24 hrs between washings. After the last wash letting it settle for a couple of days makes drying a snap cubies in the sun. I'm not sure what you mean by white gunk in the clear filter, but maybe you're referring to soap. When I only let a batch settle overnight, I get white gunk in the wash. The longer I let it settle, the less I get. I think this is soap that forms during the reaction and it settles out w. the glycerine. After settling for a week there's probably none left in the BD. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Well, I'm not really a greybeard, but since I've been settling both the crack and the wash I haven't seen any white gunk in the clear filter. -M Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes much easier. I doubt that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I don't think the unreacted oil will settle out. But: I have been wondering about something. When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test. I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my oil-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. Is it because I let it settle longer (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)? Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction? Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and that also seems to help w/ this. Thomas Kelly wrote: Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Hi Joe, glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. I wonder why Interesting experiment. I make two grades of BD Good: passes quality test; used for car Not so good: fails QT used for boiler (heat) I could take a separate sample from each after 6 - 8 hrs settling and note whether more glycerine drops out of one or the other. (I'll have to make a note of this and try it when I get some time) Do you agree that settling does not remove unreacted oil? I guess I could do a quality test on Not so good BD after 6 - 8 hrs of settling, repeat the test after 7 days of settling and see if less residue dropped out. (Make another note of this). Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Hey Tom; Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside in a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles out. Rod believes that glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. I believe he is right. And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes much easier. I doubt that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I don't think the unreacted oil will settle out. But: I have been wondering about something. When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test. I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my oil-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems. Is it because I let it settle longer (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)? Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction? Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and that also seems to help w/ this. Thomas Kelly wrote: Shawn, I suspect that the dense substance at the bottom of the flask was unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction. I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing. - Shut off the pump - Drain a sample and turn the pump back on - Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes - Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in getting a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom. I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and the result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your next batch . no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test. Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: shawn patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel Mailing List biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Good Day All, My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist. Is this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I assumed that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process without separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol?? Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD?? Regards Shawn Patrick ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. I wonder why Well I'm no chemist but my guess would be that the large Mono and Di and triglyceride molecules that are left are jammed in between the ester molecules and the glycerine has to jostle its way through it all on its way to the bottom. Having just the light ester molecules in a highly complete scenario makes it a little easier ride cause they get out of the way of the big heavy glycerin more readily? Interesting experiment. I make two grades of BD Good: passes quality test; used for car Not so good: fails QT used for boiler (heat) I could take a separate sample from each after 6 - 8 hrs settling and note whether more glycerine drops out of one or the other. (I'll have to make a note of this and try it when I get some time) Yes this is a good idea. Let me know what you find out. Do you agree that settling does not remove unreacted oil? Yes oil is soluble in esters. I guess I could do a quality test on Not so good BD after 6 - 8 hrs of settling, repeat the test after 7 days of settling and see if less residue dropped out. (Make another note of this). No I don't think this will give meaningful data because it is the mono/di and triglycerides that settle out of the methanol test ( and soap) but the glycerol will stay in solution in the methanol. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
To the suggestion: glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. Tom: I wonder why To which Joe Street replied: Well I'm no chemist but my guess would be that the large Mono and Di and triglyceride molecules that are left are jammed in between the ester molecules and the glycerine has to jostle its way through it all on its way to the bottom. Having just the light ester molecules in a highly complete scenario makes it a little easier ride cause they get out of the way of the big heavy glycerin more readily? An answer based on physical properties; nice Let me try to add to that: Glycerine has regions of charge at the -OH groups. While Triglycerides probably wouldn't have such regions of charge, Mono- and Di- glycerides would. The uncharged fatty acid chains of the Mono- and Di- glycerides might interact with the uncharged hydrocarbon chains of the BD while the charged regions of the Mono- and Di- glycerides are associating with the charged regions of glycerine. Sort of like the way one end of soap (uncharged) interacts with grease/oils while the other end (charged) of the soap interacts with water. Then again, maybe not. I thought I'd give it a try. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. I wonder why Well I'm no chemist but my guess would be that the large Mono and Di and triglyceride molecules that are left are jammed in between the ester molecules and the glycerine has to jostle its way through it all on its way to the bottom. Having just the light ester molecules in a highly complete scenario makes it a little easier ride cause they get out of the way of the big heavy glycerin more readily? Interesting experiment. I make two grades of BD Good: passes quality test; used for car Not so good: fails QT used for boiler (heat) I could take a separate sample from each after 6 - 8 hrs settling and note whether more glycerine drops out of one or the other. (I'll have to make a note of this and try it when I get some time) Yes this is a good idea. Let me know what you find out. Do you agree that settling does not remove unreacted oil? Yes oil is soluble in esters. I guess I could do a quality test on Not so good BD after 6 - 8 hrs of settling, repeat the test after 7 days of settling and see if less residue dropped out. (Make another note of this). No I don't think this will give meaningful data because it is the mono/di and triglycerides that settle out of the methanol test ( and soap) but the glycerol will stay in solution in the methanol. Joe -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
