Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-08 Thread Keith Addison
Hi Keith
I have done a 1L test . Fortunatly I re titrated after deacidification and
found that the oil had dropped from 7mls to 1ml titration so I added this
plus the 3.5. in the 25% methanol, and it came up nice and clear after three
washes.
Cheers
Ian

:-)

You're on your way Ian, good news!

Best wishes

Keith


- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification


  Hi Ian
 
 Hi Folks
 I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the
 test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams
 agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a
 thick layer of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil,
 titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is
 this normal?
 
  You probably got some soapstock along with the oil, but it doesn't
  seem to matter much. Skimming it off is the right thing to do with
  it. Did you try processing the deacidified oil yet?
 
  http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid
  Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Deacidifying WVO
 
  Best wishes
 
  Keith
 
 
 Cheers Ian


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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-08 Thread Pieter Koole
Hi Todd,

 There is a method of making biodiesel where all feedstock is converted 
 to soap, then chemically cracked to 100% FFAs and esterified to yield 
 ~100% biodiesel. But it's doubtful that you have the set up for 
 something that involved at any moderate scale.
 

What methode is that ?

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole




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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-08 Thread Pieter Koole
How stupid am I ??
When we remove the FFA's , we have only left the FFA's connected to a glyc
molecule.
Right so far ?
The next step we do with the single stage is, breaking the fatty acids of
the glyc molecule, which produces FFA's.
(Not) right so far ?
Next we connect a meth. molecule on top of the FFA's.
So why do we have to remove the FFA's at the first place ?

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification


 Hi Ian

 Hi Folks
 I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the
 test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams
 agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a
 thick layer of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil,
 titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is
 this normal?

 You probably got some soapstock along with the oil, but it doesn't
 seem to matter much. Skimming it off is the right thing to do with
 it. Did you try processing the deacidified oil yet?

 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid
 Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Deacidifying WVO

 Best wishes

 Keith


 Cheers Ian


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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-07 Thread des
Ian  Theresa Sims wrote:

 Hi Folks
 I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test 
 batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I 
 assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer 
 of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml 
 instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is this normal? 
  
 Cheers Ian

There shouldn't be any water in your oil when you're reacting.  Oil and 
lye (+methanol) = biodiesel...  Oil and water and lye (+methanol)=soap.  
Either heat your oil to drive out the water, or let it sit and settle 
longer, then pump from the top of this reserve into your processor, 
leaving the water at the bottom of the reserve tank.  When reacting, 
water is the enemy.

doug swanson

-- 
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-07 Thread Appal Energy
Ian,

What are you deacidifying your oil with and how? Adding lye or similar 
caustic in the absence of methanol is a sure fire way to manufacture 
soap, just about the last thing you want if your eventual end product is 
going to be biodiesel.

There is a method of making biodiesel where all feedstock is converted 
to soap, then chemically cracked to 100% FFAs and esterified to yield 
~100% biodiesel. But it's doubtful that you have the set up for 
something that involved at any moderate scale.

Todd Swearingen


 Hi Folks
 I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test 
 batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I 
 assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer 
 of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml 
 instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is this normal? 
  
 Cheers Ian



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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-07 Thread Keith Addison
Hi Ian

Hi Folks
I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the 
test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams 
agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a 
thick layer of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, 
titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is 
this normal?

You probably got some soapstock along with the oil, but it doesn't 
seem to matter much. Skimming it off is the right thing to do with 
it. Did you try processing the deacidified oil yet?

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid
Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Deacidifying WVO

Best wishes

Keith


Cheers Ian


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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-07 Thread Keith Addison
Ian  Theresa Sims wrote:

  Hi Folks
  I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test
  batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I
  assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer
  of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml
  instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is this normal?
 
  Cheers Ian

There shouldn't be any water in your oil when you're reacting.  Oil and
lye (+methanol) = biodiesel...  Oil and water and lye (+methanol)=soap.
Either heat your oil to drive out the water, or let it sit and settle
longer, then pump from the top of this reserve into your processor,
leaving the water at the bottom of the reserve tank.  When reacting,
water is the enemy.

Doug, you haven't checked what Ian's doing:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid
Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Deacidifying WVO

Here's the previous message:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/003008.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/hiib
[Biofuel] deacidification

Best wishes

Keith


doug swanson

--
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.


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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-07 Thread Ian Theresa Sims
Hi Todd
I'm using the JTF deacidification as some of the oil I have is Titrating at 
7mls plus the 3.5.
And no I am not that advanced.

Cheers Ian
- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification


 Ian,

 What are you deacidifying your oil with and how? Adding lye or similar
 caustic in the absence of methanol is a sure fire way to manufacture
 soap, just about the last thing you want if your eventual end product is
 going to be biodiesel.

 There is a method of making biodiesel where all feedstock is converted
 to soap, then chemically cracked to 100% FFAs and esterified to yield
 ~100% biodiesel. But it's doubtful that you have the set up for
 something that involved at any moderate scale.

 Todd Swearingen


 Hi Folks
 I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test
 batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I
 assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer
 of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml
 instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is this normal?

 Cheers Ian



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Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification

2005-09-07 Thread Ian Theresa Sims
Hi Keith
I have done a 1L test . Fortunatly I re titrated after deacidification and 
found that the oil had dropped from 7mls to 1ml titration so I added this 
plus the 3.5. in the 25% methanol, and it came up nice and clear after three 
washes.
Cheers
Ian
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification


 Hi Ian

Hi Folks
I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the
test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams
agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a
thick layer of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil,
titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is
this normal?

 You probably got some soapstock along with the oil, but it doesn't
 seem to matter much. Skimming it off is the right thing to do with
 it. Did you try processing the deacidified oil yet?

 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid
 Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Deacidifying WVO

 Best wishes

 Keith


Cheers Ian


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Re: [Biofuel] deacidification

2005-08-23 Thread Keith Addison
Hello Ian

Hi Keith
This is probably the best stuff avalable in my small town, as it is from a
food shop renound for quality food.

:-) It comes as a surprise to quite a lot of biodieselers when they 
start titrating restaurant oil and quickly find out which ones really 
produce quality food. 6ml 0.1% NaOH solution oil is not the product 
of a quality restaurant, sorry to say.

Yes I did mean deacidification as per
JTF site.
I have 80 litres in 4 drums, I took  three samples heated them to test for
water

There's probably some water in oil like that. The higher the 
titration level the more difficulty water will cause.

and carried out the test three times I even tried different isoprpyl
as some of what I had was quite old, but still the same result. I then
tested some oil from a friends home frier and found it to be around 3.5grpl,

About the upper limit, beyond that novices start having problems. 
(For his sake rather than yours, I'd suggest you tell your friend to 
change his oil more often or not to make it so hot.)

them a further test on brand new SVO and only 1 drop caused a change to
pink?
Given that my testing is accurate

Probably it's accurate.

should I persisit with single stage or try
deacidification?
The only 2 things that I question of my testing is the 1/1000 mixture was
cold, although the test was carried out with the beaker standing in warm
water and the phenolphalein was made up with Ethanol?

I think it always is. It should be okay as long as it's not old.

For the 0.1% NaOH solution, next time pour some into another beaker 
and stand that in warm water too.

Anyway, 6ml titration oil is feasible once you have some experience, 
there shouldn't be any need to deacidify it. Try deacidifying it if 
you like, it takes a little practice (gently!), but even if it works 
it will only have added another variable as an obstacle in your 
learning curve.

I'm sorry, I've lost track - did you start with virgin oil tests? If 
not, I suggest you go back and do that a few times:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

Then try the 9.5 gm/litre WVO. Do small 1-litre test batches.

If you don't succeed, then mix virgin oil with the WVO until you've 
reduced the titration result to say 2.5 to 3 ml and try that.

If you haven't got a blender you could rig one of these or something similar:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html
Test-batch mini-processor

Or you can use PET bottles - mix the methoxide first, do it this way:
Methoxide the easy way
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth

Pre-heat the oil to 55 deg C (131 deg F), funnel it into the PET 
bottle, add the methoxide, screw the lid on tightly and shake 
violently for a minute or so. Then stand it in hot water and maintain 
the temperature at 55 deg C. Shake it again hard every five minutes, 
continue for at least an hour, preferably two hours.

Please remember that your main goal isn't to process that 80 litres 
of oil, it's to learn how to make high-quality biodiesel. If you go 
about it that way you'll get better results with that oil or any oil.

Best wishes

Keith


Your thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers
Ian



Hello Ian

Hi Guys
I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 
6grpl this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for 
deacidification?

What do you mean by deacidification? Do you mean using an acid-base 
process instead of a single-stage base process, or do you mean 
this, or something similar?

Deacidifying WVO
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid

Deacidification is a standard step in processing raw (new) oils for 
sale and consumption. The deacidifying process above is basically 
the same but without the need for a centrifuge.

If you mean an acid-base process, any oil is a good candidate for that.

Anyway, oil titrating at 6 g/l is probably borderline for a novice 
attempting his first test batch with WVO. Standard WVO, if there 
is such a thing, is usually considered as around 3-3.5 titration. 
Try it if you like but you might struggle.

Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be 6grpl but 6 ml of 0.1% NaOH 
solution, which indeed translates to 9.5 grpl. How did you titrate 
it?

Best wishes

Keith


Cheers Ian


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Re: [Biofuel] deacidification

2005-08-23 Thread Ian Theresa Sims
I appreciate your patience
Cheers
Ian
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] deacidification


 Hello Ian

Hi Keith
This is probably the best stuff avalable in my small town, as it is from a
food shop renound for quality food.

 :-) It comes as a surprise to quite a lot of biodieselers when they
 start titrating restaurant oil and quickly find out which ones really
 produce quality food. 6ml 0.1% NaOH solution oil is not the product
 of a quality restaurant, sorry to say.

Yes I did mean deacidification as per
JTF site.
I have 80 litres in 4 drums, I took  three samples heated them to test for
water

 There's probably some water in oil like that. The higher the
 titration level the more difficulty water will cause.

and carried out the test three times I even tried different isoprpyl
as some of what I had was quite old, but still the same result. I then
tested some oil from a friends home frier and found it to be around 
3.5grpl,

 About the upper limit, beyond that novices start having problems.
 (For his sake rather than yours, I'd suggest you tell your friend to
 change his oil more often or not to make it so hot.)

them a further test on brand new SVO and only 1 drop caused a change to
pink?
Given that my testing is accurate

 Probably it's accurate.

should I persisit with single stage or try
deacidification?
The only 2 things that I question of my testing is the 1/1000 mixture was
cold, although the test was carried out with the beaker standing in warm
water and the phenolphalein was made up with Ethanol?

 I think it always is. It should be okay as long as it's not old.

 For the 0.1% NaOH solution, next time pour some into another beaker
 and stand that in warm water too.

 Anyway, 6ml titration oil is feasible once you have some experience,
 there shouldn't be any need to deacidify it. Try deacidifying it if
 you like, it takes a little practice (gently!), but even if it works
 it will only have added another variable as an obstacle in your
 learning curve.

 I'm sorry, I've lost track - did you start with virgin oil tests? If
 not, I suggest you go back and do that a few times:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

 Then try the 9.5 gm/litre WVO. Do small 1-litre test batches.

 If you don't succeed, then mix virgin oil with the WVO until you've
 reduced the titration result to say 2.5 to 3 ml and try that.

 If you haven't got a blender you could rig one of these or something 
 similar:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html
 Test-batch mini-processor

 Or you can use PET bottles - mix the methoxide first, do it this way:
 Methoxide the easy way
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth

 Pre-heat the oil to 55 deg C (131 deg F), funnel it into the PET
 bottle, add the methoxide, screw the lid on tightly and shake
 violently for a minute or so. Then stand it in hot water and maintain
 the temperature at 55 deg C. Shake it again hard every five minutes,
 continue for at least an hour, preferably two hours.

 Please remember that your main goal isn't to process that 80 litres
 of oil, it's to learn how to make high-quality biodiesel. If you go
 about it that way you'll get better results with that oil or any oil.

 Best wishes

 Keith


Your thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers
Ian



Hello Ian

Hi Guys
I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at
6grpl this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for
deacidification?

What do you mean by deacidification? Do you mean using an acid-base
process instead of a single-stage base process, or do you mean
this, or something similar?

Deacidifying WVO
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid

Deacidification is a standard step in processing raw (new) oils for
sale and consumption. The deacidifying process above is basically
the same but without the need for a centrifuge.

If you mean an acid-base process, any oil is a good candidate for that.

Anyway, oil titrating at 6 g/l is probably borderline for a novice
attempting his first test batch with WVO. Standard WVO, if there
is such a thing, is usually considered as around 3-3.5 titration.
Try it if you like but you might struggle.

Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be 6grpl but 6 ml of 0.1% NaOH
solution, which indeed translates to 9.5 grpl. How did you titrate
it?

Best wishes

Keith


Cheers Ian


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Re: [Biofuel] deacidification

2005-08-18 Thread Ian Theresa Sims

Hi Keith
This is probably the best stuff avalable in my small town, as it is from a 
food shop renound for quality food. Yes I did mean deacidification as per 
JTF site.
I have 80 litres in 4 drums, I took  three samples heated them to test for 
water and carried out the test three times I even tried different isoprpyl 
as some of what I had was quite old, but still the same result. I then 
tested some oil from a friends home frier and found it to be around 3.5grpl, 
them a further test on brand new SVO and only 1 drop caused a change to 
pink?
Given that my testing is accurate should I persisit with single stage or try 
deacidification?
The only 2 things that I question of my testing is the 1/1000 mixture was 
cold, although the test was carried out with the beaker standing in warm 
water and the phenolphalein was made up with Ethanol?

Your thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers
Ian
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] deacidification



Hello Ian


Hi Guys
I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 6grpl 
this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for deacidification?


What do you mean by deacidification? Do you mean using an acid-base 
process instead of a single-stage base process, or do you mean this, or 
something similar?


Deacidifying WVO
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid

Deacidification is a standard step in processing raw (new) oils for sale 
and consumption. The deacidifying process above is basically the same but 
without the need for a centrifuge.


If you mean an acid-base process, any oil is a good candidate for that.

Anyway, oil titrating at 6 g/l is probably borderline for a novice 
attempting his first test batch with WVO. Standard WVO, if there is such 
a thing, is usually considered as around 3-3.5 titration. Try it if you 
like but you might struggle.


Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be 6grpl but 6 ml of 0.1% NaOH solution, 
which indeed translates to 9.5 grpl. How did you titrate it?


Best wishes

Keith



Cheers Ian



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Re: [Biofuel] deacidification

2005-08-17 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Ian


Hi Guys
I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 
6grpl this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for 
deacidification?


What do you mean by deacidification? Do you mean using an acid-base 
process instead of a single-stage base process, or do you mean this, 
or something similar?


Deacidifying WVO
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid

Deacidification is a standard step in processing raw (new) oils for 
sale and consumption. The deacidifying process above is basically the 
same but without the need for a centrifuge.


If you mean an acid-base process, any oil is a good candidate for that.

Anyway, oil titrating at 6 g/l is probably borderline for a novice 
attempting his first test batch with WVO. Standard WVO, if there is 
such a thing, is usually considered as around 3-3.5 titration. Try it 
if you like but you might struggle.


Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be 6grpl but 6 ml of 0.1% NaOH 
solution, which indeed translates to 9.5 grpl. How did you titrate it?


Best wishes

Keith



Cheers Ian



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