Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 04:11:04PM -0700, kirk wrote: They don't want you hooking into the grid. There is discussion on this topic at distributed generation. Of course they don't, you're a competitor -- it's like all the small phone companies that are around now that use the big phone company's lines and undercut them on cost. Too bad -- that's what they have to put up with if they want the other benefits of being a public utility, like being able to run their lines along roads, etc. But the power utilities are being extremely short sighted by trying to make it difficult to hook up, all that they will accomplish is that there will be hundreds of thousands of people doing it *without* notifying them, *without* maybe even having any real safety cutouts. Check out the guerilla pages at http://www.homepower.com -- there front page says You don't need permission to put solar energy on the grid. and that's a fact. Unless you run it totally backwards for awhile, i.e., ending up with minus readings each month, they'll never know. I want to do it for a living, however, and at least in WI they seem to be pretty much accomadating. At least from what I've seen so far anyway. And I think I can make a profit even at 3 cents avoided rate if it's free fuel, but I'm hoping that WI will follow CA's lead and up the maximum to 100kw for th retail rate. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Pepu2 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The members that represent power companies say other customers have to pay more because of you. They flat don't want you on line. I don't understand that argument at all. By reducing the Peak Load, I should be saving ALL the customers money. Motie if power company has to pay you full retail price, they in fact are buying electricity above the natural cost (e.g. avoided cost). or lets put it this way, government makes them subsidisie your operations in a name of environmental solutions. As it is a commercial operation that must do the subsidising, then they want to recover their expense somewhere -- in this case by rising prices to customers. In actual figures, I think they save money be reducing the Peak Rates they pay for power. Each individual situation would be slightly different, but a very large percentage of customers here are on base load management programs, and have their power cut off whenever the load gets high. If I were hooked up, several of these customers could have power during these times, and the power is from renewable local sources. I'm negotiating with a local commercial customer to install as a backup system at his facility. He isn't happy with the current situation either. thinking further -- there is nothing wrong of rising the final price of energy, it should reflect the cost of sustainable and environmental production. those costs should also make customers save more energy thus helping the environment as well... Or would they attempt to 'fudge' a bit, and end up being worse for the environment. When the price was raised at the landfill for disposal of washers and dryers and refrigerators and tires and old mattresses, they started appearing in roadside ditches instead. My Father in law 'salvaged' several lawn mowers from the road side and sold them at a garage sale. I bought one of them, and run it on Ethanol. We broke the connecting rod in a couple more 'experimenting'. They don't have as much torque as on gasoline, because the compression really isn't high enough to burn efficiently. The connecting rods will only stand so many RPM's. Rating speed is 3600. They don't seem to care for 5000. 4200 or 4500 seem to be OK so far. I may shave the head on a couple to raise the compression ratio, and lower the RPMs a bit...4000 or so. I also want to play with cellulose-Ethanol fermentation to use grass clippings to provide the fuel for them. I still haven't figured out the amount of vacuum needed to remove the Ethanol at a temp that will allow the yeasts to survive. It isn't vacuum distillation I am looking for, it's more vacuum fermentation. If anyone has any insights to this, please post them. So many ideas, so little time. LOL Motie Too soon old, too late smart! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
Go for it! Greg H. - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 00:03 Subject: Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota Or should I legally change my name to 'None of the Above' and run for President? Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
On Thu, Mar 28, 2002 at 07:03:36AM -, motie_d wrote: They agree that by law, they have to buy the power. It's meeting the equipment specs that seemingly can't be done. No one has yet connected to them, so they have done NO studies as to what will be needed to satisfy them, that I am not creating a hazard to them or their customers. They have NO specs for intertie, and any cost to conduct a study is to be born by me, with NO estimate of cost or time needed. I won't sign a blank check like that. That's why you need to have an attorney talk to them -- they are just giving you the run around, hoping you'll go away. But first I would set up the system, with an induction motor/generator and a relay to insure that if the grid goes down, it disconnects (yes, the induction motor will do that anyway, but having the relay ends any arguement from them), run it, make sure it works as designed (just run the meter backwards for short trials, they'll never know the difference), then have the lawyer read the law to them and if they don't comply, sue them. I don't see anything in the MN law that says *you* have to pay for any study done by them. Have the setup all ready to go, have the lawyer tell them you are simply going to put it on line, whether they like it or not and if they don't start paying, they'll be sued, and make sure it's the individuals being sued, not just the utility. They did tell me that they only need to allow me to put enough power back into the grid to negate my monthly household power Bill. Any more than a 'break-even point', and I would most likely be donating it to them. See, that's just BS -- once again, having a lawyer talk to them will put an end to their attempts to BS you. Best case scenario is that they MAY pay me the 'avoided cost' of their purchase price for power, which is currently $.02 Kw. That's true if your generating capacity is 40kw and over. If it's under 40kw, the MN law is very clear that they have no choice but to pay you full retail rate. Well, that applies if it's renewable fuel, or natural gas and a cogen. Here's the MN statute. http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/216B/164.html -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's why you need to have an attorney talk to them -- they are just giving you the run around, hoping you'll go away. But first I would set up the system, with an induction motor/generator and a relay to insure that if the grid goes down, it disconnects (yes, the induction motor will do that anyway, but having the relay ends any arguement from them), run it, make sure it works as designed (just run the meter backwards for short trials, they'll never know the difference), then have the lawyer read the law to them and if they don't comply, sue them. I don't see anything in the MN law that says *you* have to pay for any study done by them. Have the setup all ready to go, have the lawyer tell them you are simply going to put it on line, whether they like it or not and if they don't start paying, they'll be sued, and make sure it's the individuals being sued, not just the utility. I don't have the money personally to put the project together. The Financier wants to know how much it's going to cost to install and run, before he hands over the money. I need to know what equipment is needed to intertie and meet the Utility specs, before I can figure in equipment and setup costs. A Canadian competitor is also trying to get the project. I'm confident I can provide the site and the feedstock for less than the Canadian can, and probably can beat him on cost of fabricating the gasifier and gas treatment. Without a written agreement with the Utility, I'm left hanging. I probably can't beat the Canadian if I have to spend money to create a load. A 100HP electric motor with an airplane propellor is probably the cheapest load I can create. It won't pay, and I not only dislike wasting the power, but every little bit of money coming in, makes my project closer to self-sustaining, and longer lasting for testing purposes. With a 100Kw unit, if I could get $.07Kw for the first 40Kw, and the $.02 avoiding cost for 60Kw, that would come to $40/hr. If I could work out the details, and get paid for Peaking Power, I could actually come out ahead. That's true if your generating capacity is 40kw and over. If it's under 40kw, the MN law is very clear that they have no choice but to pay you full retail rate. Well, that applies if it's renewable fuel, or natural gas and a cogen. I'd be using bark and sawdust, so it would definitely be renewable. I'm also trying to work with a commercial customer to install as a back-up generator. Maybe that angle of attack can get me hooked up, particularly with the Peaking Power potential. Here's the MN statute. http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/216B/164.html Thanks -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
They don't want you hooking into the grid. There is discussion on this topic at distributed generation. = THE DISTRIBUTED GENERATION DISCUSSION GROUP - .. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. To view previous messages from the list, subscribe to a daily digest of the list, or stop receiving the list by e-mail (and read it on the Web), go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/distributed-generation. .. To contact the list owner, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The members that represent power companies say other customers have to pay more because of you. They flat don't want you on line. Couldn't you electrolyze water and self pressurize a bottle for sale to welding suppliers? Oxygen too. All you need is a drier. The cell should generate all the pressure you need. No expensive pump/compressor needed, just a batch electrolyses. Where can I buy a 500watt hydrogen fuel cell? Where can I buy a hydrogen stove/oven? How about hydrogen lights similar to gas lights with a mantle and globe? Any good info on this stuff? I think forget the utility co if at all possible. They are a source of trouble. Kirk -Original Message- From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:35 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The regs here are being redone this year tho, and there's hope that they will raise the limit. And install some intelligence too? Or is that too much to hope for? In my dream world, the next step that needs doing is to get some type of accountability for the Bureaucrats. There are SO many regulations we are required to follow, but no incentive for the papershufflers to shuffle their papers in a timely manner. If someone asks me what time it is, I naturally look at my watch. They naturally look at their calendar! -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.342 / Virus Database: 189 - Release Date: 3/14/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.342 / Virus Database: 189 - Release Date: 3/14/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
I don't think ADM and Big Ethanol are in the same league as Exxon-Mobil, the WSPA and the like. I'm no fan of Mr. Andreas, but he's not even close to the record of Big Oil in the energy field. It's taken him how long to get his ethanol and biodiesel into our vehicles? Around here (San Diego) , he hasn't come close to making a dent. I'm not sure I've ever seen a pump around here that had any ethanol mixed in rather than MTBE. I can almost hear the Oil Lobbyists laughing at him. They are just too damned good. With the possible exception of biodiesel being run in Diesel Engines (and I've never seen biodiesel made available to the general public at gas stations, around here) there are *no* mass-produced highway capable vehicles available readily and without hassle, nationwide to all American consumers, that do not use fossil fuels. None. This is not even close to being an accident, IMO. In other words, it is not *possible* for the vast majority of American consumers to run their vehicles without using some fossil fuels, although more-widely-available biodiesel could I guess change some of that. jl On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:24:37 -, you wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Big Biofuels isn't that different to Big Oil. Big Ethanol = ADM, Cargill, Monsanto, soy-based biodiesel the same (and that's who's behind the NBB). Please don't let me get started on THAT topic! It's even worse than you seem to think. It isn't just Big Oil, Big Ethanol or Big Biodiesel. You have to add in the Big Electric Utilities, Big Coal etc. They are all gathering together under a much larger Umbrella, that I call Big Energy. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think ADM and Big Ethanol are in the same league as Exxon-Mobil, the WSPA and the like. I'm no fan of Mr. Andreas, but he's not even close to the record of Big Oil in the energy field. It's taken him how long to get his ethanol and biodiesel into our vehicles? Around here (San Diego) , he hasn't come close to making a dent. I'm not sure I've ever seen a pump around here that had any ethanol mixed in rather than MTBE. I can almost hear the Oil Lobbyists laughing at him. They are just too damned good. With the possible exception of biodiesel being run in Diesel Engines (and I've never seen biodiesel made available to the general public at gas stations, around here) there are *no* mass-produced highway capable vehicles available readily and without hassle, nationwide to all American consumers, that do not use fossil fuels. None. This is not even close to being an accident, IMO. In other words, it is not *possible* for the vast majority of American consumers to run their vehicles without using some fossil fuels, although more-widely-available biodiesel could I guess change some of that. jl My belief for the reason you can't buy it, is because the Big Guys don't have full control yet. They aren't about to let any of us little guys in, unless it's under their control. They are letting us develop the technology, but they won't let us into the market. When we are fully ready to be commercial producers, we won't have a market except through them. When we starve out or go broke, they will have it all to themselves. I've been trying for several months to interconnect a generator to the grid, and have been stonewalled at every step. The temptation is very strong to just hook it up without their permission or authority, but I know they would shut off my access instantly. I'm not ready to be totally electrically self-sufficient. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FIND OLD SCHOOL FRIENDS and OLD FLAMES Click here to start your search at Reunion.com today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NFsLKA/Dn2DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
On Wed, Mar 27, 2002 at 09:53:13AM -, motie_d wrote: I've been trying for several months to interconnect a generator to the grid, and have been stonewalled at every step. The temptation is very strong to just hook it up without their permission or authority, but I know they would shut off my access instantly. I'm not ready to be totally electrically self-sufficient. I'd have an attorney talk to the utility. It wouldn't cost much, and would probably get much quicker results. You probably need to get an attoney involved anyway, since it's going to involve a legal contract, and you need to make sure they're complying with state law and not trying to jack you around. I was just looking at the MN net metering law, it's pretty clear they don't have any choice at all except to let you do it, at least for 40KW and under. I know you were talking about a larger system, but maybe just start off with a 40kw or even smaller to get your feet wet. It's really surprising how different their (petty officials) attitude becomes when they have to talk to a lawyer, instead of you, and they get concerned that they might be getting sued or creating a problem that could cost them their job. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Energy links - was Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
murdoch - I don't think ADM and Big Ethanol are in the same league as Exxon-Mobil, the WSPA and the like. I'm no fan of Mr. Andreas, but he's not even close to the record of Big Oil in the energy field. It's taken him how long to get his ethanol and biodiesel into our vehicles? Around here (San Diego) , he hasn't come close to making a dent. I'm not sure I've ever seen a pump around here that had any ethanol mixed in rather than MTBE. I can almost hear the Oil Lobbyists laughing at him. They are just too damned good. With the possible exception of biodiesel being run in Diesel Engines (and I've never seen biodiesel made available to the general public at gas stations, around here) MH - U.S. Maps Showing Alternative Fuel Station Counts http://www.afdc.doe.gov/refuel/usmaps.html These static maps show a top level view of refueling stations for the entire United States. If you are looking for specific station locations or would like to see a detailed map for a specific area, please go to murdoch - there are *no* mass-produced highway capable vehicles available readily and without hassle, nationwide to all American consumers, that do not use fossil fuels. None. MH - FFV Flexiable Fuel Vehicule (E-85) are avalable in the USA. Newer vehicles (check owners manual) OK'ed for E-10. murdoch - This is not even close to being an accident, IMO. In other words, it is not *possible* for the vast majority of American consumers to run their vehicles without using some fossil fuels, although more-widely-available biodiesel could I guess change some of that. MH - For further links to information: US Energy Market Maps http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/reps/states/maps/contents.html US Renewable Energy Maps http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/reps/remap/contents.html Energy A-Z http://www.eia.doe.gov/fueloverview.html Renewable Energy A-Z http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/a-z/renewable.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota
Nice, but now the Gene Mod. people will have another reasion to tamper with nature. Greg H. They need reasons? Yes, but that's the trouble, eh? We find ourselves in bed with some strange partners. Big Biofuels isn't that different to Big Oil. Big Ethanol = ADM, Cargill, Monsanto, soy-based biodiesel the same (and that's who's behind the NBB). This other tussle that's going on now with the Winnebago ethanol plant (see County Board gives the OK for ethanol plant) shows up our dilemma, once again. It's not just people like Pimental we have to contend with, there's plenty in the archives about the likes of the Sierra Club opposing both ethanol and biodiesel. To take ethanol, they apparently oppose it because of things like run-off problems caused by the high fertiliser inputs for the corn, and the high fossil-fuel inputs - and end up opposing a good biofuel in favour of fossil fuels! Screwy! It's really industrial agriculture they're opposing, ethanol's just collateral damage, so to speak. In fact, as you know (also in the archives), organic corn yields are as high or higher, no such inputs, much lower fossil fuel use, and why the hell doesn't Club Sierra know that, let alone Pimental? Very confused issue. Similarly with biodiesel. And in fact, from our point of view, mostly small-scale, not corporate, corn and soy are not exactly the ideal crops anyway, there are far better energy crops, and far better ways of growing them, to general benefit, for the farmer, his farm and everything on and in it, for the local community, and onwards. We should make these distinctions somehow and decide where we stand, but I'm damned if I know how to do it without seeming to join one side or the other, both of them benighted. Same thing with countering diesel-bashers - if our enemies' enemies are our friends, we're keeping some pretty bad company. Sustainable biofuels? An overworked word. Oh well. At least it seems we won't have to wrestle with Jesse Ventura, LOL. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 16:49 Subject: [biofuel] Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota Farm Ranch Guide: News Column Biodiesel bill becomes law in Minnesota By ANDREA JOHNSON, Valley Editor Farmers are closer to developing an important new avenue for their soybeans as a result of Minnesota legislature. Minnesota will mandate a 2 percent inclusion of biodiesel into the state's petroleum diesel supply beginning in 2005 if certain requirements are met. Biodiesel is an alternative fuel made from renewable fats or oils, such as soybean oil. The Minnesota House and Senate passed a bill on March 11 requiring biodiesel blended with all diesel fuel sold in the state - with a few exceptions. Diesel fuel used at nuclear power plants, by train engines, and by mining equipment is exempted from the act. Gov. Jesse Ventura, on March 15, said he would not sign or veto the bill. By not vetoing the legislation, Ventura allowed the bill to become law under Minnesota statues. snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FIND OLD SCHOOL FRIENDS and OLD FLAMES Click here to start your search at Reunion.com today! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NFsLKA/Dn2DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
