Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

As long as we're dealing with advisory signs erected by an official body rather than a vigilante neighborhood busybody, I think the maxspeed:advisory= tag would be appropriate. Regards Adam ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 02/05/18 13:03, Craig Wallace wrote: A 20 sign with a green circle is advisory. A 20 sign with a red circle is a legal limit. Some advisory limits are signed as "Slow zone" or similar. Advisory signs can be put up with no formality. Legal speed limits require a traffic regulation order,

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

I think they are popular in Flintshire around schools. I was certainly somewhat disconcerted by them when I first encountered them. It occurs to me that it may be worth mapping these because of their obvious intent to confuse, but only using highway=traffic_sign. Jerry On 2 May 2018 at 13:31,

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 2018-05-02 14:03, Craig Wallace wrote: > A 20 sign with a green circle is advisory. Such signs have apparently no legal status whatsoever. See this FoI request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/20_mph_speed_limit_signs_with_gr There may be a difference in liability, if you exceed

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Hey Phil The quest pin is still in your application's cache. The app downloaded the quest more than 8 months ago. In any case, no need to worry. In case you solve a quest that turns out to be outdated (=there is a conflict with actual data), it will discard that answer and invalidate the cache of

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 2018-05-02 11:53, Jez Nicholson wrote: Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit. It is advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes it hard not to. A 20 sign with a green

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Single or dual carriageway has nothing to do with restricted access. It is whether or not each direction is a different physically separate carriageway. The division can be a strip of grass. Phil (trigpoint) On 2 May 2018 12:34:56 BST, Tobias Zwick wrote: >Also, > >6.

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Restricted Road is the correct formal term for roads where the default 30mph limit applies. That said, it is not a term that most people will recognise (unlike single/dual carriageway). Adam On Wed, 2 May 2018, 12:36 Tobias Zwick, wrote: > Also, > > 6. Did you come up with

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Also, 6. Did you come up with the term "restricted" or is the term actually used within the same context as single / dual carriageway in the UK legislation? Because, that term is usually used for quite another thing in OSM context (restricted access roads). But, as long as the nsl_* taggings in

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 02/05/18 12:06, Adam Snape wrote: Sorry, for clarity, both '20 mph zones' and '20mph limits' are actual legal limits, not just advisory. In the former case, the sign on entry to the zone coupled with the traffic calming is thought to be enough to make drivers aware of the reduced speed

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 02-May-18 11:55, Philip Barnes wrote: I believe it's DoT policy not to allow 30mph repeaters (at least, someone told me that). True for roads with street lighting, but quite common, and required, on 30 mph roads with no street lights. Ah, yes, thank you (both) for the clarification.

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 2 May 2018 11:53:20 BST, Jez Nicholson wrote: >Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't >have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit. >It is >advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes it hard

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

A 20 mph zone is a 20mph speed limit area. 20 mph repeater signs are judged not to be necessary because the traffic calming measures physically limit the speed of traffic. A 20 mph limit simply imposed on an existing road without traffic calming is deemed to require repeaters to differentiate it

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 2 May 2018 11:46:35 BST, John Aldridge wrote: >On 01-May-18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote: >>> And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the >>> speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs >>> but that doesn't mean that the speed

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:47 John Aldridge, wrote: > I believe it's DoT policy not to allow 30mph repeaters (at least, > someone told me that > This is correct on street lit where the 30mph limit would apply by default. 30mph repeaters can (and should) be used if a 30mph limit

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Oh, this is fun. So, correct me if i'm wrong: a "20 mph zone" doesn't have/need repeaters because it is not actually the legal speed limit. It is advisory to travel at that speed because traffic calming makes it hard not to. On Wed, 2 May 2018 at 11:36 Adam Snape wrote:

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01-May-18 16:29, Philip Barnes wrote: And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs but that doesn't mean that the speed limit stops applying. And 30mph limits don't need repeaters, for example it is

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

The school lights I'm aware of which refer to a maximum speed are advisory rather than mandatory. The actual legal speed limit remains the same. Adam On Wed, 2 May 2018, 11:17 Brian Prangle, wrote: > Just to further complicate matters there can also be conditional 20 mph >

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Just to further complicate matters there can also be conditional 20 mph speed limits on roads passing schools, so they're default 30mph unless the condition is met when they're 20 mph - condition is usually flashing lights during school opening and closing times Regards Brian On 1 May 2018 at

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

I had a bit of an interest in tagging speed limits a few years back. It's way more complicated than it should be in the UK. Researching led me down a bit of a rabbit hole of legislation & case law. I made the following personal notes about UK limits and how to recognise them, which I think is

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

So then, in case the user answers in the app that there is no sign, the app could ask the user whether the street is lit. Only if it is not lit, it tags the street as nsl_single/nsl_dual. Would that solution be correct? On 01/05/2018 19:22, Philip Barnes wrote: > On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 18:42

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 19:15 +0200, Colin Smale wrote: > In most European countries there are rules/conventions that the sign > only applies until the next junction, at which point the sign must be > repeated if required.  That is something I found really confusing the first time I drove in

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 18:42 +0200, Tobias Zwick wrote: > Does the "there are no repeater signs" rule only apply for the > default > 30 mph limit (and the 20 mph zones)? Or in other words, if there is > an > explicit different limit posted, let's say 40 mph, does it have to be > repeated at each

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

If it is marked as a 20mph Zone, the limit must be self-enforcing through chicanes, speed bumps and similar. Repeaters are neither needed nor permitted. If it is not a Zone, but simply a road with a 20mph limit, repeaters are required.

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 17:34 +0100, Jonathan wrote: > Am I missing something? The 20 mph signs are the same as all speed > restrictions signs are they not? >   They have the word Zone on the sign https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/keuNX2tehPliEtm3Xt6CSg

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Does the "there are no repeater signs" rule only apply for the default 30 mph limit (and the 20 mph zones)? Or in other words, if there is an explicit different limit posted, let's say 40 mph, does it have to be repeated at each intersection and feed roads? Tobias On 01/05/2018 16:35, Philip

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Am I missing something? The 20 mph signs are the same as all speed restrictions signs are they not? Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me From: Tobias Zwick Sent: 01 May 2018 10:45 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas? This tag

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On Tue, 2018-05-01 at 16:09 +, Nick Whitelegg wrote: > > > > > > > EDIT: sorry, silly question. For some reason I overlooked that JOSM > works with OSM OAuth, so the answer to the general question "can a > non-web app authenticate with OSM" would appear to be yes. > > > StreetComplete

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

t.ac.uk> Sent: 01 May 2018 16:48:21 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas? ... this would be with a user's individual account by the way, not some generic anonymous account. Thanks, Nick From

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

be done in-app. Thanks, Nick From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> Sent: 01 May 2018 15:42:10 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas? On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote: > On

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

be done in-app. Thanks, Nick From: Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> Sent: 01 May 2018 15:42:10 To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas? On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote: > On 01/05

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

That should include Leicester. Phil (trigpoint) On 1 May 2018 16:29:15 BST, Philip Barnes wrote: > > >On 1 May 2018 16:17:40 BST, Rob Nickerson >wrote: >>>When the user answers *"Yes, no sign"* >> >>At that point the easiest option is for the

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 1 May 2018 16:17:40 BST, Rob Nickerson wrote: >>When the user answers *"Yes, no sign"* > >At that point the easiest option is for the app to simply stop. Add no >data to OSM. > >And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the >speed limit sign. No

[Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

>When the user answers *"Yes, no sign"* At that point the easiest option is for the app to simply stop. Add no data to OSM. And yes, you may have to go back several roads before you see the speed limit sign. No all local authorities put up the repeater signs but that doesn't mean that the speed

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01/05/2018 12:43, David Woolley wrote: On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote: I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 1 May 2018 10:41:28 BST, Tobias Zwick wrote: >This is where I need your help. How should the dialog be changed (in >GB) >to not create any misunderstandings here? > Difficult without having seen the speed limit signs as you have entered the zone. My usual approach is

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

In fairness to Tobias: - StreetComplete is a well-used app (over 10k installs according to Google Play), representing 2% of all changesets last year. - It offers a way for people who don't want to engage with the full complexity of learning an editor (as represented by the person who

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Did you read my last paragraph? Could you respond also to that? On 01/05/2018 13:23, David Woolley wrote: > Two or three years ago, we had problem of lots of bogus "wrong speed > limit" notes being added by one particular app.  The general result ws > that no-one took any notice of the notes from

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01/05/18 12:23, David Woolley wrote: I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their OSM account.  maps.me has a high incidence

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 01/05/2018 12:23, David Woolley wrote: I don't know about your tool, but it is essential that every user has an explicit personal account with OSM, and that they are set up to receive emails if people add changeset comments, or post messages to their OSM account.  maps.me has a high

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Two or three years ago, we had problem of lots of bogus "wrong speed limit" notes being added by one particular app. The general result ws that no-one took any notice of the notes from that app. More recently, we have had problems from maps.me, although possibly not for speed limits. I

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

This tag is not invented, it exists in other countries where slow zones exist as well. Also, there *is* something special about it, otherwise the sign would not be different from a normal maxspeed sign, wouldn't it? (And the wikipedia article wouldn't exist) The special thing about it, is that the

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Okay, I have the impression that the tenor of the answers I got so far is that a "maxspeed:type=GB:something" tagging would not be necessary because in practice in the UK, any 30mph limit on lit streets will be posted explicitly. Thus, the maxspeed should be specified explicitly (along with

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Philip Barnes wrote: > I wouldn't invent a type tag, it's maxspeed = 20 mph > because that's what the sign says. There is nothing special > about these areas. No, 20mph zones and roads with 20mph limits are different legal concepts and are signed differently. A 20mph zone must have physical

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

I wouldn't invent a type tag, it's maxspeed = 20 mph because that's what the sign says. There is nothing special about these areas. Phil (trigpoint)  On 1 May 2018 09:58:23 BST, Tobias Zwick wrote: >Regarding the 20mph zones >(see

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Regarding the 20mph zones (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_km/h_zone), analogous to other countries where they exist, they would be tagged as maxspeed:type=GB:zone20. On 30/04/2018 20:57, Philip Barnes wrote: > Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are > present and

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

On 30/04/18 18:41, Tobias Zwick wrote: On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type": GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph) Aren't we missing a couple of points here? These speed limits

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

> so something should be defined and documented I agree with my fellow mappers. There is no need to add this to the UK tagging guideline. > motorways indicated by the international chop sticks sign That is brilliant. I have to find a way to use that expression somewhere :-) P.S. I wish other

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

By not implicitly signed I mean there is no number on a NSL sign, the limit changes between 60/70 when roads change between single and dual carriageways and there is no explicit 70 sign on motorways. Phil (trigpoint) On 30 April 2018 20:31:11 BST, Adam Snape wrote:

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Also, I don't think we need a special tagging scheme just because each individual road is not signed. We don't do so for analogous restrictions such weight, width or access restrictions which are generally only signed when entering or leaving the zone where the restriction applies. Adam On 30

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

I'm not sure I'd call any of the national speed limits implicit. All are explicit in that they are (or should be) physically signed at least where the limit changes, so they are verifiable rather than merely implied. The only practical difference is whether small repeater signs are required to

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

For practical purposes the only non-implicitly signed speed limits are national speed limits, (start indicated by black diagonal on white) and motorways indicated by the international chop sticks sign. Phil (trigpoint) On 30 April 2018 19:54:37 BST, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Whilst in theory there is an implicit 30mph when street lights are present and there are no repeater signs indicating a higher limit then the speed limit is 30 mph. It has nothing to do with urban, the same rule will apply on lit rural roads. These days it is complicated by 20mph limits which

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

I apologize for the misunderstanding, this is about implicit speed limits when there is *no sign* that ordains another speed limit, of course. Cheers Tobias On 30/04/2018 20:50, Brian Prangle wrote: > You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major roads > in in built up areas

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

You can't make that assumption of an implicit 30mph limit. Major roads in in built up areas can be 40 mph and increasingly speed limits are being reduced to 20mph in built up areas Regards Brian On 30 April 2018 at 18:41, Tobias Zwick wrote: > Hi there > > On tagging

Re: [Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

The UK definition of a "built-up area" for traffic purposes is still occasionally subject to discussions [1] In 99.9% of the cases the speed limit will be signed explicitly anyway. --colin [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_area_(Highway_Code)#Legal_definition On 2018-04-30 19:41,

[Talk-GB] Implicit speed limits: What to tag in built-up areas?

Hi there On tagging implicit speed limits in the United Kingdom, the wiki lists the following values [1] for "maxspeed:type": GB:nsl_single (=60 mph), GB:nsl_dual (=70 mph) and GB:motorway (=70 mph) I understand that the current legislation defines a road with road-lighting as a built-up area