Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Maxim Dubinin wrote: Everyone spied on everyone and I guess continue to do so. A group of Russians were just arrested in Seattle on that very charge... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: just checked one of these maps. and interestingly it contains data which is most likely copied from official maps which are not in PD. So it is nearly impossible that these maps are PD. the russian copyright holder may have bought the source data but very unlikely they have a license for distribution and release to PD. Now I show my ignorance, but I am assuming that the last major name changes for cities and streets in Russia was post-Stalin, with a few changed after the breakup of the USSR. Am I correct? and now ... what years would be the markers for these events? Because some of post-Stalinist changes would now be expired from copyright? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
2010/6/24 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com: This is only possible if those countries are nt members of international copyright treaties. Russia (and USSR) and UK - are members of those treaties. So same laws apply. Unfourtunatly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key question. According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones: a) copyright laws, automatic b) try to keep it secret c) patents, trademarks USSR map secrecy was definetly based on option b) and not a); which I could interpret in a way that copyright does not apply to them. So if someone somehow has got the maps then this means that secret holder has just failed to do their job and the maps are therefore public domain. At least outside Russia, in the terms of Berne convension. Certainly within Russia there are probably other laws which protect distribution of military secrets and if you'll go to Russia with the maps then you can be jailed there. Soviets had maps for not only own territory, but globally, up to 1:10.000, covering also e.g. UK. Of course, OS has own opinion about UK part: http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf Usually the Soviet maps are not just plain maps: someone has tried to remove their encryption, has georetified them, digitized etc. These derivates are most probably copyrighted by the ones who did the job. So you need to follow their terms too. ps. The fact that someone was jailed in Russia does not mean that they really had to do something really illegal. It only means that someone with enough power (like military is) did not like what they do. And was the case really about copyright violation? I assume it was rather about military secrets. It is good to know that USSR laws were often contradicting, so if they do not like you or what you do, they'll find a way to punish you; and according to my understanding Russia is quite systematically following similar convinient practise. Jaak, ex-USSR ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: just checked one of these maps. and interestingly it contains data which is most likely copied from official maps which are not in PD. Well that was the issue with OS, the ordinance survery in UK, the said that the russian maps stole the information from them. see this : http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OSstatement.pdf more info: http://www.southampton.ac.uk/cartography/sovietmaps/info.html http://sovietmaps.com/history mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Jaak Laineste wrote: Unfourtunatly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key question. According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones: a) copyright laws, automatic b) try to keep it secret c) patents, trademarks I read the whole article and decided that USSR copyright was issued to creative works, of which a map is usually one. Whether copyright extends to facts on the map is not mentioned. Very interesting, with the boot on the other foot is the statement from UK's Ordnance Survey claiming that the Russian maps must be stolen from their mapping http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the actual maps http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf and http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Thank you Liz for sharing this! I am in no way interested in the discussion about russians, sovjet maps, and what should be on or off, but the unclejoe links you pasted are very nice, simply from a historic point of view and they where completely new to me. Being a BSc Cartographer myself, I hadn't heard about that piece of history and the tremendous effort spend by the Russians to create these maps, it is a real eye-opener and (without judging about the reasons why these maps where created) a master-piece regarding mapping, planning and integrating data into a global system! a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the actual maps http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf and http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Milo van der Linden Open Source Geospatial consultant dogodigi - Geospatial solutions Beukenlaan 2 5261LE Vught T. +31616598808 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
you don't think that only Soviet did that, right? There is evidence, that GNS data (based on US military series) on at least part of territory of Russia was likewise borrowed from Soviet topomaps. No way they can systematically get names of specific geographic features otherwise. Everyone spied on everyone and I guess continue to do so. Maxim Вы писали 1 июля 2010 г., 6:01:10: L On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Jaak Laineste wrote: Unfourtunatly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key question. According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones: a) copyright laws, automatic b) try to keep it secret c) patents, trademarks L I read the whole article and decided that USSR copyright was issued to L creative works, of which a map is usually one. L Whether copyright extends to facts on the map is not mentioned. L Very interesting, with the boot on the other foot is the statement from UK's L Ordnance Survey claiming that the Russian maps must be stolen from their L mapping L http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf L a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the L actual maps L http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf L and L http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf L Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most L disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only. L ___ L talk mailing list L talk@openstreetmap.org L http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
just checked one of these maps. and interestingly it contains data which is most likely copied from official maps which are not in PD. So it is nearly impossible that these maps are PD. the russian copyright holder may have bought the source data but very unlikely they have a license for distribution and release to PD. On 23 Jun 2010, at 23:48 , Kirill Bestoujev wrote: Did they show you any documents confirming that that do really have ANY rights to sell those maps? I\m sure they did not... K. 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com: We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Eugene Iline evge...@ily.in wrote: Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.comwrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.comwrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Eugene Iline evge...@ily.in wrote: Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.comwrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
I would like to say this, those maps are not very detailed, and really, have been used for very rough corrections, and adding in some streams or placing cities. mike On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:42 AM, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Eugene Iline evge...@ily.in wrote: Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.comwrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Did they show you any documents confirming that that do really have ANY rights to sell those maps? I\m sure they did not... K. 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com: We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Eugene Iline evge...@ily.in wrote: Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Purchasing stolen maps does not make them public domain... 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com: On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
It makes no difference how you used them!!! They are not good for osm! K. 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com: I would like to say this, those maps are not very detailed, and really, have been used for very rough corrections, and adding in some streams or placing cities. mike On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:42 AM, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Eugene Iline evge...@ily.in wrote: Have you really officially purchased them from Russian government, its military divisions or perhaps from Roskartografiya? 2010/6/24 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:42 AM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Oh really? I read that they were sold. We had purchased them and were using them, also for osm. The consensus was that they are public domain. lets straighten this out. http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg27951.html mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ AFAIK this is not legal seller of maps, and poehali.org too. They both hosted outside Russia. So this maps can't be reliable identified as public domain maps. Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
I think you should take this to the legal list. As far as I know, the copyright laws of england count for osm, not those of russia. mike 2010/6/24 Alexandr Zeinalov shu...@sbin.ru We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ AFAIK this is not legal seller of maps, and poehali.org too. They both hosted outside Russia. So this maps can't be reliable identified as public domain maps. Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
So you want to say that you do not care for those osm-users, which are in Russia and which may have problems using osm with copyright data in it? Did I get you right? K. 24 июня 2010 г. 13:56 пользователь jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com написал: I think you should take this to the legal list. As far as I know, the copyright laws of england count for osm, not those of russia. mike 2010/6/24 Alexandr Zeinalov shu...@sbin.ru We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ AFAIK this is not legal seller of maps, and poehali.org too. They both hosted outside Russia. So this maps can't be reliable identified as public domain maps. Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
I am not saying that. I am saying that this is a topic for lawyers. from what I learned about the discussion on wikipedia datapoints, it is uk law that governs osm data. mike 2010/6/24 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com So you want to say that you do not care for those osm-users, which are in Russia and which may have problems using osm with copyright data in it? Did I get you right? K. 24 июня 2010 г. 13:56 пользователь jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com написал: I think you should take this to the legal list. As far as I know, the copyright laws of england count for osm, not those of russia. mike 2010/6/24 Alexandr Zeinalov shu...@sbin.ru We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ AFAIK this is not legal seller of maps, and poehali.org too. They both hosted outside Russia. So this maps can't be reliable identified as public domain maps. Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Well then assuming this we can even say that anyone not being physically in UK can use any copyrighted source (Google sat.) for instance to contribute to OSM, right? 24 июня 2010 г. 14:22 пользователь jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com написал: I am not saying that. I am saying that this is a topic for lawyers. from what I learned about the discussion on wikipedia datapoints, it is uk law that governs osm data. mike 2010/6/24 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com So you want to say that you do not care for those osm-users, which are in Russia and which may have problems using osm with copyright data in it? Did I get you right? K. -- Best regards, Eugene Iline ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
But you should know that there are some copyright international agreements between many countries. Russian laws can't be used in England, and russian military secrets can't be protected by English laws. But it doesn't concern with copyright laws. Roscartographia is a copyright holder for soviet topo maps, so its rights may be protected by English laws. I think you should take this to the legal list. As far as I know, the copyright laws of england count for osm, not those of russia. mike 2010/6/24 Alexandr Zeinalov shu...@sbin.ru We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ AFAIK this is not legal seller of maps, and poehali.org too. They both hosted outside Russia. So this maps can't be reliable identified as public domain maps. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
When people in one country use servers in another country, the laws affecting those users may not be the same as those affecting the servers themselves. For example, some works are public-domain in Australia, but still in copyright in the USA. So, it is legal for those works to be on the Gutenberg Australia web site, without it being legal for users in the USA to download those works. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Sender: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:22:56 To: Kirill Bestoujevbestou...@gmail.com Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
This is only possible if those countries are nt members of international copyright treaties. Russia (and USSR) and UK - are members of those treaties. So same laws apply. And by the way I am 100% sure that in UK stolen and later sold copyright materials are not treated us public domain. K. 2010/6/24 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com: When people in one country use servers in another country, the laws affecting those users may not be the same as those affecting the servers themselves. For example, some works are public-domain in Australia, but still in copyright in the USA. So, it is legal for those works to be on the Gutenberg Australia web site, without it being legal for users in the USA to download those works. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Sender: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:22:56 To: Kirill Bestoujevbestou...@gmail.com Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.comwrote: And by the way I am 100% sure that in UK stolen and later sold copyright materials are not treated us public domain. Can I see some documentation on this theft? Why dont you start with some dcma takedown notices for the people selling them, and see what happens? mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On 24 June 2010 23:00, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: Can I see some documentation on this theft? Why dont you start with some dcma takedown notices for the people selling them, and see what happens? You do realise DCMA is only for sites hosted in the US right? You seem to have bias here maybe because you, or someone you knew, has spent money obtaining them, in any case copyright is usually the default, not public domain and unless you know otherwise you should always assume the worst. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
there is no mention of PD for these maps at mapstore.com. they are not even free of copyright from poehali.net free download doesn't mean PD Can I use the maps in my own project? You have the right to use maps for the purpose of familiarization for personal use. To use the maps or other materials in your project, you have to obtain our permission. Please use our email address i...@mapstor.com for communication. But please note: • All map images contain “poehali.net” imprint, which is our trademark • In order to avoid confusion, there should be clear distinction between your product/service and ours • We would greatly appreciate you citing us as a source of the images • We are always open to cross-marketing and/or link exchange. On 24 Jun 2010, at 3:22 , jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: I am not saying that. I am saying that this is a topic for lawyers. from what I learned about the discussion on wikipedia datapoints, it is uk law that governs osm data. mike 2010/6/24 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com So you want to say that you do not care for those osm-users, which are in Russia and which may have problems using osm with copyright data in it? Did I get you right? K. 24 июня 2010 г. 13:56 пользователь jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com написал: I think you should take this to the legal list. As far as I know, the copyright laws of england count for osm, not those of russia. mike 2010/6/24 Alexandr Zeinalov shu...@sbin.ru We purchased them from this site : http://mapstor.com/ AFAIK this is not legal seller of maps, and poehali.org too. They both hosted outside Russia. So this maps can't be reliable identified as public domain maps. Here the same data is available from a usaid sponsored project : http://www.bunkertrails.org/maps.php -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Hi, Looking for data sources on Kyrgyzstan, I came across soviet military topographic maps. This is for Osh for example : http://en.poehali.org/maps/100k--k43-122.html According to Wikipedia, it is in the Public domain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Source_materials The goal would be to trace over these maps in Openstreetmap. Could someone confirm me that these Soviet military topographic maps are in the PD ? Thanks in advance Frédéric ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Replying to myself, these maps are out of copyright according to our wiki : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps#Old_maps_found_elsewhere_on_the_web Frédéric Le 23 juin 2010 21:47, Frédéric Bonifas fredericboni...@gmail.com a écrit : Hi, Looking for data sources on Kyrgyzstan, I came across soviet military topographic maps. This is for Osh for example : http://en.poehali.org/maps/100k--k43-122.html According to Wikipedia, it is in the Public domain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Source_materials The goal would be to trace over these maps in Openstreetmap. Could someone confirm me that these Soviet military topographic maps are in the PD ? Thanks in advance Frédéric ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Ok so it has to be removed from the Out-of-copyright maps page of the wiki right ? Frédéric Le 23 juin 2010 22:12, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com a écrit : No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Kirill 2010/6/23 Frédéric Bonifas fredericboni...@gmail.com: Replying to myself, these maps are out of copyright according to our wiki : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps#Old_maps_found_elsewhere_on_the_web Frédéric Le 23 juin 2010 21:47, Frédéric Bonifas fredericboni...@gmail.com a écrit : Hi, Looking for data sources on Kyrgyzstan, I came across soviet military topographic maps. This is for Osh for example : http://en.poehali.org/maps/100k--k43-122.html According to Wikipedia, it is in the Public domain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Source_materials The goal would be to trace over these maps in Openstreetmap. Could someone confirm me that these Soviet military topographic maps are in the PD ? Thanks in advance Frédéric ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Interesting. A while I ago I did some work on generating relief contours from Viewfinder's DEM data, basis of which are old Soviet military maps: http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/viewfinders-dem-data-comparison-with-srtm Someone then warned me that some of the Viewfinder data stems from Soviet military topos, these a copyrighted by Roscartographia, still. No reproduction, no selling etc. We’re not using these data for open projects, it is avoided for OSM etc… (see the discussion in the comments). I'd be interested to know what is the real truth: public domain or Roscartographia? Igor 2010/6/23 Frédéric Bonifas fredericboni...@gmail.com Hi, Looking for data sources on Kyrgyzstan, I came across soviet military topographic maps. This is for Osh for example : http://en.poehali.org/maps/100k--k43-122.html According to Wikipedia, it is in the Public domain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Source_materials The goal would be to trace over these maps in Openstreetmap. Could someone confirm me that these Soviet military topographic maps are in the PD ? Thanks in advance Frédéric ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
No, they are not out of copyright. All the rights of USSR were transfered to Russian Federation. Neither USSR, nor Russian Federation ever transferred those maps to public domain or in any other way allowed free use of them. Most of that maps were stolen from exUSSR military bases in republics, which separated from USSR in 90-s. In Russia disclosing of such maps (not 100k, they were openly publiched, but 50k) is still a crime - treason. There was such a case a month ago. SO: old USSR military maps are not allowed to be used in OSM. Kirill 2010/6/24 Igor Brejc igor.br...@gmail.com: Interesting. A while I ago I did some work on generating relief contours from Viewfinder's DEM data, basis of which are old Soviet military maps: http://igorbrejc.net/openstreetmap/viewfinders-dem-data-comparison-with-srtm Someone then warned me that some of the Viewfinder data stems from Soviet military topos, these a copyrighted by Roscartographia, still. No reproduction, no selling etc. We’re not using these data for open projects, it is avoided for OSM etc… (see the discussion in the comments). I'd be interested to know what is the real truth: public domain or Roscartographia? Igor 2010/6/23 Frédéric Bonifas fredericboni...@gmail.com Hi, Looking for data sources on Kyrgyzstan, I came across soviet military topographic maps. This is for Osh for example : http://en.poehali.org/maps/100k--k43-122.html According to Wikipedia, it is in the Public domain : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Maps/Source_materials The goal would be to trace over these maps in Openstreetmap. Could someone confirm me that these Soviet military topographic maps are in the PD ? Thanks in advance Frédéric ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
